[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Why do we need a ruse?

Without a ruse, I'd assume moving the entire fleet close to a choke point like Malacca Strait is considered a major "escalation" in geopolitics.

Clearly, this move has a "nod/wink" approval from the United States. If it comes to it, any action near the choke point needs 100% active diplomatic support from US - because lots of nations will be affected by action in this theater.

[Sutripta]

^^^
It is meant as a message. If one needs a ruse to send a message, better to back away from posturing.

[V.Narayan]

INS Viraat goes to the scrap yard at Alang. End of an era.

INS Viraat {erstwhile HMS Hermes} has found no takers to convert it to a museum ship. This week it arrives at Alang, under tow, to be scrapped. Sadly the fate of INS Vikrant is being repeated. The cost of maintaining a vessel that size as a museum is in the order of Rs 20 to 30 crores a year. And Govt of India does not wish to invest that money.

Thanks to INS Viraat and the Sea Harriers our competence in carrier operations and more importantly fixed wing fast combat jet operations were kept alive and sharp. Without INS Viraat we would have gone the way of several other navies who lost their carrier fixed wing capabilities in the 1970s and 1980s. And the old girl, with the help of refits and upgrades, kept ploughing through the seas till 2016 when she was 57 years old. She last sailed in 2016 and was decommissioned in 2017.

My salute and thanks to all the men who sailed her in both the Indian and the Royal Navy and a tribute to the engineers and dockyard mateys of the Indian Navy who kept her alive and sailing till her 57th year. As a mark of respect to the Royal Navy, included below is a photo of HMS Hermes entering Portsmouth harbour after her victory in the Falklands where she was the flagship.

We, it seems don't have the funds to help build military naval pride for future generations but we do have Rs 8000 crores for VVIP udaan khatolas.

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...scrap-6568260/

https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/i-was-c...-scrap-2290271

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Viraat goes to the scrap yard at Alang. End of an era.

This is just heartbreaking. To see the once mighty and proud flagship of the Indian Navy being just disposed off like this!!!!

If you ever wonder what the pilots and sailors who served on her, just watch this ivide of of the INS Vikrant. This was just after the news came in that the Vikrant's steel was being used on the Bajaj V motorbike and the retired Naval officers like Adm Arun Prakash wishing the owners well. When I had seen this video for the first time, I had tears in my eyes. You feel for the men who called the ship their mother and where they shed blood, sweat and tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8QHegIwH2c

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We, it seems don't have the funds to help build military naval pride for future generations but we do have Rs 8000 crores for VVIP udaan khatolas.

Exactly Sir. Our is a nation where we worship Politicians, cricketers and bollywood fellows as "Heroes". THese useless politicians and baabus can divert funds to buy new aircraft, build statues , posh villas and new parliament buildings, but will feign bankruptcy when it comes to converting warships as museums or preserving military equipment for the future generations.

As citizens, we have failed as well. Our Patriotism only gets displayed when there in an India-Pakistan cricket match or a war like situation. That is the reason why our soldiers and the war machines, are treated with so much disdain and carelessness. Yes, there is the initial "Nation will never forget their sacrifices. We are indebted to them for their sacrifices", but then what?

[V.Narayan]

INS Kavaratti the last and 4th vessel of the Kamorta class ASW corvettes commissions today

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-n...G9DboIzgP.html

INS Kavaratti, ASW corvette, built by Kolkata’s Garden Reach Shipbuilders commissioned into the Indian Navy today. She is the 4th and last of her class. It is likely that a follow-on improved class will be built.

The ship is armed with one heavy ASW helicopter {Seaking or Seahawk}, 2 x triple 324mm ASW torpedoes, 2 x RBU6000 ASW rocket launchers, 1 x Oto Melara 76mm dual purpose gun, Barak 1 point defense SAM vertical silos for 16 missiles {not yet fitted. – budgets?} and 2 x AKM630 30mm Close-in weapon Systems. She is designed primarily for anti-submarine warfare and escort of other vessels, naval or merchant. Powered by 4 SEMT Pielstick diesels made in India under license she is designed for long sea legs rather than speed. She follows the IN’s design philosophy of building the largest possible and practical hull around a given weapons package. Larger hulls afford range and survivability and sustainability i.e. more space and weight for munitions. The ship displaces ~3300 tonnes and is 109 metres long.

The vessel's main ASW sensor is the hull mounted HUMSA sonar designed and built in India. Its main suite of electronic warfare systems - Kavacch, Ajanta & Sanket are also indigenously designed using a mix of Indian and foreign hardware. We have come a along way from the time in 1972 when.....no I won't tell you....please read post#37 at https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...3.html....read :-)

She is named after the island capital of Lakshadweep. Her predecessor was a Petya class ASW corvette that served in 1971.

After a long period of construction drought in the 2005-2014 period the fleet is once again being equipped with modern combatants at an increasingly rapid pace.

[rdas81]

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/20...nODOx5GVuBv7yA

Has the Viraat been saved ?

[dhanushmenon]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Kavaratti the last and 4th vessel of the Kamorta class ASW corvettes commissions today

Thats great news. Fantastic and very potent platforms indeed. Kamorta Class, with this fourth addition will definitely pack the punch in the Corvette segment. The capability to carry medium lift ASW helicopters is a huge shot in the arm, unlike the previous gen Corvettes.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

INS Viraat goes to the scrap yard at Alang. End of an era.

Virat bidding good bye is very sentimental for a lot of us. Not only Indians, British alike. I had a photo of Virat and Vikramaditya in the same frame, taken during IFR of 2016. If I can search it out, shall upload it here.

[V.Narayan]

Australia to join USN, Indian Navy and Japan's JMSDF in next month's Malabar exercises:: Sending a firm message to an overtly belligerent China

The Malabar Naval Exercise between US Navy (USN) and the Indian Navy (IN) started in 1992 as a small exercise. Since then, after including JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force) in 2015, it has become by far the largest multi-lateral naval exercise in Asian waters. The exercise was held off the coast of Guam in the Philippine Sea in 2018 and off the coast the Japan in 2019. The location was clearly a message in itself. This year, these exercises are soon to commence and will include Australia a Navy of consequence in this region.

Whether to include Australia in the annual drill had been discussed in the Quad foreign ministers' meet in Tokyo earlier this month. After resisting the idea for years due to Beijing's views, India, given its bitter border confrontation with China at eastern Ladakh over the past few months, said it was open to Australia's inclusion. Australia had been kept out at India's bidding as we did not wish to stoke China. But today after Galwan those concerns are no longer key.

China has been suspicious of the drill that started in 1992 as a bilateral exercise between India and the US. Beijing believes that the annual war game is an effort to fight its influence in the Indo-Pacific region. The Quad, a diplomatic-cum-security group formed in 2017, comprises of USA, India, Japan & Australia. The aim is to effectively counter a belligerent China. The Quad had met earlier this month and reaffirmed the importance of maintaining a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific a region where freedom of the seas is under threat due to China's illegal activities in the South China Sea & the Straits if Taiwan.

How times change. I still remember the day in December 1971 when news arrived that USS Enterprise had sailed in to the Bay of Bengal to support Pakistan in the Bangla Desh Liberation war. And here we are with the Americans as our allies. How times change and we should change with them.

Photos from past exercises:

USS Carl Vinson replenishing at sea from INS Shakti

Carriers from the USN, IN and JMSDF

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

[b]How times change and we should change with them.

And what would be a greater testament to this change than the IN flying the Super Hornet off the Vikky's ramp. With each passing day that seems more and more likely. I am eagerly following the Boeing Loyal Wingman development and if India can get its hands on those, and the pre condition is ordering those 57 hornets for IN, it should be a no-brainer (provided the safety nets vis a vis sanctions are in place in the form of sovereign guarantees from the US)

[ads11]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

And what would be a greater testament to this change than the IN flying the Super Hornet off the Vikky's ramp. With each passing day that seems more and more likely. I am eagerly following the Boeing Loyal Wingman development and if India can get its hands on those, and the pre condition is ordering those 57 hornets for IN, it should be a no-brainer (provided the safety nets vis a vis sanctions are in place in the form of sovereign guarantees from the US)

Thumbs up to that - it's no secret that I've been a bit of an advocate of the possibilities RAAN's Loyal Wingman programme could bring to IN Super Hornets. While unfortunately there are always the veritable sword of Damocles in the form of Pentagon scrutiny over US purchases, at least with the loyal wingman drones themselves, being a purely Australian programme - there isn't that risk there. It would just mean our engineers having to figure out a way to get those drones to work with our Mig-29K's in a worst case scenario but let's cross that bridge when we get to it.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

China has been suspicious of the drill that started in 1992 as a bilateral exercise between India and the US. Beijing believes that the annual war game is an effort to fight its influence in the Indo-Pacific region.

There's a poignant quote I read in an article recently that I can recommend others reading (emphasis mine):

China's leaders see the world as a series of four rings centred on their hallowed sanctuary in Beijing. The first ring covers China itself, and this is the most important and sensitive area because domestic instability is a constant threat. The second concentric ring is China's periphery - 14 adjacent countries and maritime areas. Indeed, China has fought wars with five of those neighbours since 1949.

The next ring outwards comprises the larger Asia-Pacific region, which China believes the larger Asia-Pacific region, which China believes is its rightful sphere of influence where external powers should have only limited access if any at all. The final ring stretches the rest of the way around the globe, encompassing increasingly important areas such as the Middle East and Africa. Most alarming to the CCP's rulers is that the US has the ability to influence and threaten China in each of these four concentric rings.

So in that context for sure you can see where the Chinese unease comes from with the burgeoning alliance forming with the Quad and like you so astutely point out, why they're uncomfortable about how the Malabar exercises have grown as well. India and Japan are very clearly within that second ring and often at loggerheads with China, and in Australia there is now a concerted national discussion about the elephant in the room which is finally leading to some tough decisions, foremost of which is just where to draw a line with China. Fortunately for India, this means the Quad absolutely has a good chance of becoming something more because it's a marriage of convenience for all parties concerned. In fact there are calls to formalise the Quad.

Many believe that as the US firmly entrenches for great power competition once more, and the Chinese become more muscular, the pieces are in place for the Quad to become an alliance almost in the manner of NATO with the aim towards countering the influence of Beijing. For this to happen however would not just require a concerted diplomatic convergence of will across the Quad member states, but also significant bipartisan backing in all of those states for it to become sanctified in such a formal manner. How that fits in with India's historic tendencies towards maintaining strategic independence and flexibility is something I imagine is keeping the mental cogs of our diplomatic and bureaucratic corps turning furiously. In fact I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the members here:

Q. Do you think formalising the Quad in terms of the joint exercises and cooperation as it stands today is sufficient or do you think India getting drawn into a more concrete set up a la NATO is the logical conclusion? And if the latter is the case, are you comfortable with the implications this has on our other relationships going forward?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Carriers from the USN, IN and JMSDF

Finally I have to admit, the Izumo makes me swoon. There's something about it's clean lines that makes me find it the most aesthetically pleasing flat top plying the seas today - much to the consternation of the PLAN no doubt (and the Philippines and South Koreans too..)

[akshay380]

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

.

Is this the one?

[dhanushmenon]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

And what would be a greater testament to this change than the IN flying the Super Hornet off the Vikky's ramp. With each passing day that seems more and more likely. I am eagerly following the Boeing Loyal Wingman development and if India can get its hands on those, and the pre condition is ordering those 57 hornets for IN, it should be a no-brainer (provided the safety nets vis a vis sanctions are in place in the form of sovereign guarantees from the US)

I don't see possibility of Super Hornets taking off the ramp of Vikky. That's too rosy a dream. May be with loads of wishful thinking, we may hope it to integrate with IAC 1 (Vikrant) or IAC 2; that is, if the Hornets come at all. In addition, I dont think the steep ramp of Vikky would be able to launch a Super Hornet. Super Hornet, if I am not wrong, uses catapult launch; which is not available with us as of now. Retrofitment, if considered as an option, would be done only on future decks. Not on present ones.

Originally Posted by ads11

Finally I have to admit, the Izumo makes me swoon. There's something about it's clean lines that makes me find it the most aesthetically pleasing flat top plying the seas today - much to the consternation of the PLAN no doubt (and the Philippines and South Koreans too..)

Strictly speaking, Izumo is a Helicopter carrier. Cannot call it as an aircraft carrier in the strictest of terms. There were plans afoot to convert it into a proper aircraft carrier; however, that didn't seem to have seen the light of dawn as yet.

I would rather invest on submarines than these poster boy Aircraft Carriers. Unless you are an expeditionary force (like the US), sea denial is more effective than sea control in war time scenario. Carriers are expensive behemoths. The economy of effort is pretty too much.

Originally Posted by akshay380

Is this the one?
Attachment 2071064

No dear. It was a front profile picture. With one behind the other slightly displaced laterally from each other.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

I don't see possibility of Super Hornets taking off the ramp of Vikky. That's too rosy a dream. May be with loads of wishful thinking, we may hope it to integrate with IAC 1 (Vikrant) or IAC 2; that is, if the Hornets come at all. In addition, I dont think the steep ramp of Vikky would be able to launch a Super Hornet. Super Hornet, if I am not wrong, uses catapult launch; which is not available with us as of now. Retrofitment, if considered as an option, would be done only on future decks. Not on present ones.

There was a report floating around that Boeing was conducting take-off tests of the Super Hornet from a ground-based ski jump at NAS Patuxent River some time ago. That was apparently part of a demonstration effort to show to the Indian Navy that the Super Hornet can operate from the IN's STOBAR aircraft carriers.

In the early 80s, an F-14 was tested on a ski-jump at NAS Patuxent River. While the take off tests were successful and it proved that US Navy's conventional fighter jets could take off from carriers in significantly shorter distances using a ski jump than they could on conventional flat deck carriers, the Tomcat could never achieve maximum armament weight take-off weight capability while operating from a ski jump. The Legacy F/A-18 Hornet(the "A" variant was tested) too faced the same issue as the Tomcat in later tests. Not sure if the Super Hornet would succeed where its predecessors failed or for that matter, even the Rafale.

[dhanushmenon]

Originally Posted by akshay380

Is this the one?

This is the snap I was talking about.



Couldn't find the full resolution picture. I think it got lost along with my previous hard disk. This is a low res version that I sourced from elsewhere.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

There was a report floating around that Boeing was conducting take-off tests of the Super Hornet from a ground-based ski jump at NAS Patuxent River some time ago. That was apparently part of a demonstration effort to show to the Indian Navy that the Super Hornet can operate from the IN's STOBAR aircraft carriers. ....Not sure if the Super Hornet would succeed where its predecessors failed or for that matter, even the Rafale.

If the report is true, let's hope that the results are encouraging too. The thing is, any naval aircraft (fighter planes and helicopters) need to be designed for maritime use from the design sketch. It needs to meet a lot of stringent criteria:-
1. Should be able to be stowed in a small space.
2. Provision for blade folding, in case of helicopters. The procedure should be simple, should be able to be completed in small time on a moving (all three degrees of motion) deck.
3. Ground support maintenance equipment catering for afloat and ashore usage alike.
4. Stronger and sturdier landing gears, catering for harder landings on a deck.
5. Metallurgy catering for marine environment of operations and corossion.
6. Provision of floatation device.
7. Landing/ Take off weight limitations.

Its a huge list of considerations stemming out of the very wide spectrum of naval operations. Any land based aircraft cannot be used for naval operations. If you have noticed, the Air Force and Naval versions of all aircraft are hugely different; even in airframe designs in many cases. You'll see that the LCA of Indian Air force and Indian Navy doesnt even look like siblings. Air force Mig 29 and Naval Mig 29K though appears to be from the same breed, is very different in its utility and design. The same goes with Rafales. One cannot one fine morning decide to land Air Force Rafales on Naval Carriers. They simply cannot.

That's the case with any aircraft for that matter. A helicopter, for example, designed to operate in high altitude will have its definite strengths; but it will not be suitable for ship operations. Conversely a helicopter designed for ship based operations, say a Westland Seaking for example, cannot climb above 10,000 ft. Though at sea level operations, there's no match to its versatility.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

I don't see possibility of Super Hornets taking off the ramp of Vikky. That's too rosy a dream. May be with loads of wishful thinking, we may hope it to integrate with IAC 1 (Vikrant) or IAC 2; that is, if the Hornets come at all. In addition, I dont think the steep ramp of Vikky would be able to launch a Super Hornet. Super Hornet, if I am not wrong, uses catapult launch; which is not available with us as of now. Retrofitment, if considered as an option, would be done only on future decks. Not on present ones.



.

When I said Vikky, I meant Vikrant. So yes, no SH for the Vikramaditya, I agree.

As re SH's ability for STOBAR ops, it has recently been tested by Boeing with a full load and Boeing is on record saying that it will launch with full load off teh deck of IAC1.

the other huge benefit the SH has over the Rafale M are folding wings, which allow them to fit in the lifts of IAC 1, something the Rafale is unable to do.

So realistically speaking its down to SH vs more Mig 29Ks. given the availability rate and quality issues with the 29, I honestly dont see IN going for more 29s.

The SH pretty much picks itself, and IF India is offered the growler, then that will be the Icing on the cake. Imagine, IN Operating growlers in Arabian sea and the IAF operating Spectra equipped Rafales on the northern and western borders!!