[Ithaca]

@ V Narayan.

Sir, Another fantastic thread related to our Military by you.
Rated 5 stars as always.

Exhaustive, Informative and well penned. A treat to read for sure.
A link to this thread is being sent to all my whatsapp groups so that others too can read it and be proud of our Naval capabilities.

We currently have one aircraft carrier being built - INS Vikrant 2 and one being planned as mentioned by you.
Very proud to know this.

When the merchant vessels i have sailed on would be enroute to Suez for transit, it would be heartening to see our Indian Navy vessels being part of the international coalition to safe guard the sea routes. At times I have seen our Naval vessels leading a convoy of merchant ships in which you would invariably find few Shipping Corp of India vessels along with vessels of other flags as they make their convoy towards or away from Babal Mandap.

Thank you for this thread, will surely be informative to all readers who are keen to learn about our naval history and strength.

[abhishek46]

Dear Sir,
I salute your knowledge and your writing skills. It has been a pleasure to read through all your Naval threads, thanks to sheer amount of insight you share!

Can I request you share a few words, whenever possible, on the Tejas & it's future prospects?

[Gannu_1]

A very insightful read.

I feel fortunate to have been associated with the medium refit of our fleet's replenishment oiler - INS Jyoti, 2 years back.









My team handled the accommodation/habitability part of the ship where the crew stays. Quite a challenging experience it was. But the crew was very helpful (usually not the case when a ship comes for refit). This was originally a Russian oil tanker converted to a replenishment oil tanker and a lot of machinery and equipment still retains the Russian data plates. Most of the equipment were only refurbished as they were working fine. Usually, they are scrapped and replaced with brand new equipment.

And IINM, she's the second largest vessel of the Indian Navy, until the Vikrant is officially commissioned to the fleet.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Narayan, some questions and comments:

1) How about a few words on AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) submarines? Kalvari class subs are likely to be equipped with DRDO developed AIP system. I read somewhere that they are quieter than even Nuclear subs (because nuclear subs need to keep pumping water in and out)

Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarines

Q. When does this even make sense?

A. Power required to propel a vessel in water is a cube function ie at 5 knots a submarine needs 8 times less power than at 10 knots and 64 times less power than at 20 knots. A diesel electric boat's maximum silent speed would be around the 7 knots and it is in this loitering range of 2 knots to 7 knots that AIP comes into its own in extending the endurance or time the boat can patrol with greatly reduced chance of being spotted itself. The power needed by a sub to loiter at such low speeds is in the tens of kilowatts range ie very little for its size. AIPs cannot be used for high speed transits - for that you still need the traditional banks of batteries.

Types of AIPs

A bank of batteries feeding an electric motor is also an AIP. But the term today refers to more modern AIPs that extend the endurance at loiter speeds. Any such AIP needs to be one that can - (i) operate at the maximum diving depth of the sub (ii) not be a fire hazard (iii) be economical in the space it eats up.

Three modern day solutions exist:-

A) The Swedish answer is a small stirling engine in the 50 to 75 kw range that combusts ethanol and compressed oxygen (carried in cyrogenic cylinders at very high pressures). So at depth the little stirling starts to chug and re-charge the main batteries enabling the sub to increase its endurance. The fuel density of ethanol is far greater than any battery so for the same weight of energy source the sub sails longer.

B) The French came up with a similar concept expect the small stirling got replaced by a not so small steam turbine.

C) The Germans developed fuel cells that compliment the traditional batteries. The traditional batteries can be charged and discharged rapidly while the fuel cells with greater energy density can discharge only slowly and hence suited for slow speeds while the traditional batteries are used for high speed dashes.

#A and #C are in service and relatively proven. #B is considered by most experts to be the laggard and only adopted by our western neighbour.

#A and #B need to discharge their gaseous exhausts underwater at 40 bars or more. They do that be conducting the combustion at a higher pressure. High pressure oxygen, super high pressure combustion underwater in a confined space on the whole seems a less elegant and more risky solution than fuel cells in option #C. Discharge of gas is also a source of noise. Avoidance of noise makes subs stealthy. So I would put my money in the long run on #C ie Fuel Cells.

Figures of endurance are never published. Indicatively from what is in the public domain subs on traditional batteries could patrol (at very low speeds) for 7 to 10 days. With the AIP systems that figure goes up 2X or so. AIP subs are a natural evolution from traditional battery subs and will dominate the navies of tomorrow. Sweden & Japan have gone down the stirling engine path and Germany, Greece, Israel, Italy, Norway, Portugal, Singapore, Spain, South Korea, Turkey have gone the fuel cell route. If we had stayed with our HDW Type 1500 programme as Turkey did we could have built 10 more subs under German license by now and be building the AIP versions (called Type 212/214) today. I'll save that rant for another day.

DRDO do say they are developing an AIP. Not sure why we need to reinvent everything. The Swedes could sell the knowhow the same way they did to the Japs.

Originally Posted by R2D2

What can I say V Narayan, but reading about these ships makes me very nostalgic and miss my Dad. He served on quite a few of them including the Queen of the IN fleet, the INS Vikrant (as XO), in the '60s and '70s.

XO of Vikrant was quite something. Quite something. Very complex and stressful job. For our readers the XO is the second in command of a naval ship.

Originally Posted by Ithaca

When the merchant vessels i have sailed on would be enroute to Suez for transit, it would be heartening to see our Indian Navy vessels being part of the international coalition to safe guard the sea routes. At times I have seen our Naval vessels leading a convoy of merchant ships in which you would invariably find few Shipping Corp of India vessels along with vessels of other flags as they make their convoy towards or away from Babal Mandap.

Thank you. Coming from a mariner that sounds sweet.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

Can I request you share a few words, whenever possible, on the Tejas & it's future prospects?

This is a tempting ask. It will require a lot of homework. In all sincerity there are others on TBHP better equipped than me honestly for this. But I agree it is an article worth writing.

Originally Posted by Gannu_1

I feel fortunate to have been associated with the medium refit of our fleet's replenishment oiler - INS Jyoti, 2 years back.

Thank you for sharing these pictures. Nice to see our IN ships going to the private sector for long refits.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

. Unlike some other parts of our society the Navy is confident enough to embrace its past - even our erstwhile colonial exploiters - and move forward. When we are weak and unconfident we want to change names of roads to proclaim ourselves. When we are confident we can let Raffles Square in Singapore remain as that and not be re-named Lee Kuan Yew Square.

The red cross or St George's cross is a part of the naval ensign of some commonwealth countries - Ghana, Trinidad, India, New Zealand, Australia and of course UK and a few others. In my opinion the flag looks handsome and traditions should not be tinkered by politicians. After all our uniforms and rank insignia too are a derivative of the British. Hope this helps.

Superbly written and explained. Many thanks for this answer, felt really good to read it.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A lot in our Navy (and Army, IAF) are traditions, procedures, work culture, ranks and uniforms inherited from the British including the ethos of remaining apolitical.

The red cross or St George's cross is a part of the naval ensign of some commonwealth countries - Ghana, Trinidad, India, New Zealand, Australia and of course UK and a few others. In my opinion the flag looks handsome and traditions should not be tinkered by politicians. After all our uniforms and rank insignia too are a derivative of the British. Hope this helps.

We agree on many things but I guess on this aspect we strongly differ.
The St.George's cross represents an empire which was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of Indians( Bengal famine of 1943 is the one of the most recent examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943) and I believe all references to this empire should be removed.

Germany had many colonies also in the same period as the British but I don't think any former colony's Navy would use a flag based on the Kriegsmarine (German Navy).

The Germans have also come to terms with their past and do not refer to it's symbols except for educational purposes.

German Naval Ensign in 1945 and the current German Naval Ensign

[ads11]

In Mr Narayan's defence, I think it's rather a simplistic argument to simply use the German ensign of the Kriegsmarine during the Third Reich. If you look closely at the link below this edition of the ensign was only used for a ten year period. The Weimar republic before it had a much closer iteration to what we have now for the German Navy and if we look historically, the Imperial German Navy ensign would've been much more deeply embedded in the minds of sailors due to the longer period of time it had been in use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_flags

Furthermore, the Indian Naval ensign has had a St George's cross on it for nigh on a century almost, with minor variations through the ages, the major one being the inclusion of the Indian flag instead of the Union Jack. Personally I find the inclusion of the Ashok Chakra at the very centre of the cross is a most elegant solution, that ties in the long storied history and keeps at the very core a symbol even more deeply historically embedded in the Indian psyche.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to equate the Reich flag with a St George's cross, bit of an extreme stretch to use the most heinous regime in modern history. I'm not trying to be an apologist but I don't think we should entirely ignore such an extensive part of our history. The key is to be totally objective and here I will admit you invite a world of trouble over whose idea of objective is best.

Anyway, that's just my two pence. To go back to the discussion about AIP above, it's really useful tech in littoral environments. So you can see why it behooves nations to acquire some subs of this type so as to park it in the shallow waters close to a nations coast or in India's case I imagine in the waters of the Malacca Strait and near the Andamans. Who knows, if the IN is really bold they could risk having a nose around Karachi.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by ads11

I think it's a bit disingenuous to equate the Reich flag with a St George's cross, bit of an extreme stretch to use the most heinous regime in modern history. I'm not trying to be an apologist but I don't think we should entirely ignore such an extensive part of our history. The key is to be totally objective and here I will admit you invite a world of trouble over whose idea of objective is best.

We are going off topic but:
"that the British deliberately adopted policies that caused as many as 29 million Indians to starve to death in the late 19th century"
This is probably a very conservative number, real number is probably much higher.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...ns-404631.html

The Germans killed about 6 million Jews in WWII (2-3 million Bengalis alone died in the famine of 1943 which was caused by British. Winston Churchill who was responsible for this, is regarded as a hero in the UK. I wonder why the double standards for Hitler) . The British had many other colonies where millions of more people died under their rule.

The worst part about this is we have people going around saying how great the empire was and how the colonies benefitted. Imagine if people went around saying how good the Nazis were and the Jews benefitted !

I think the numbers speak for themselves, however most people believe what has been told to them since childhood.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarines

Thanks again for a very interesting piece of information.

I understood that fuel cells (IN's choice of AIP) discharge slower while delivering tens of kW of power needed for loitering at at 2 - 7 knots, resulting in longer time underwater.

Along with the fuel cell, if separate low power motors (tens of kW) are employed for AIP, it will increase the underwater time further. Tens of kW is too little a load for the big main motors, which will not have very good part load efficiency. The same load will be around 60% - 90% of the rated capacity for the separate small motors.

[abhii176]

Another brilliant thread Narayan sir, this brings back such fond memories of growing up in a naval family. I've had the pleasure of visiting a few of these ships with my dad and your thread just brings back all that nostalgia!

I can remember being being on board the INS Viraat, INS Rana and INS Himgiri during those Family day functions and that feeling of sailing on these majestic warships is unparalleled!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The 5 ships are INS Rajput, INS Ranjit, INS Rana, INS Ranvir & INS Ranvijit.

Just one small correction here, the fifth Rajput class destroyer is INS Ranvijay and not Ranvijit.

[theMAG]

Evocative thread! I'm generally agnostic to most geo-political commentary, but your narrative gave me the goosebumps! During my college years, a career in the Indian military was an emotionally powerful dream that I nursed.

It is heartening to read that the Indian Navy has been silently yet surely building its capablities of late.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

XO of Vikrant was quite something. Quite something. Very complex and stressful job. For our readers the XO is the second in command of a naval ship.

He was in line for the Command having received a formal promotion although he personally felt doubtful due to the then unsaid 'only-naval-aviators' rule. Yes, it was a pretty stressful job. No mean task sailing as CO or XO of the Queen of the IN.

Incidentally he had commanded the ASW Corvette/Frigate INS Andaman P74 in '76-77 prior to his transfer to the Vikrant. I had been on this ship (and a few others) in my childhood days during family day functions where they took the ship out for a short jaunt offshore and it was the ship equivalent of a ride in a Chevy Corvette. The whine of that gas turbine was intoxicating to me even as a primary school kid. Sadly, she fell into a state of disrepair and eventually sank in the BoB during a storm in Aug '90.

[ariesonu]

Only if you have time & patience OR you wish to just glance through it. Too technical at some places but still some fascinating sections

http://www.phisicalpsience.com/publi..._DDG-1000.html

Regards,
Sonu

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Narayan, some questions and comments:

3) I think we need more submarines. It brings in asymmetric element against a more powerful enemy like China. And that is exactly what Pakistan Navy is doing against India. They already have 8 submarines and have recently signed a deal with China for acquiring 8 more:

Pakistan will always do what it can afford to bolster its underwater arm as it serves as a weapon of sea denial. We must not under estimate them. They have 5 meaningful subs - all French Agosta variants. Of these 2 are now quite old being well over 37-38 years in age and must be having limitations to their diving depth. They are planning these 8 from China and can be a nuisance for us.

Our assessment of the submarine fleet we need is around 24. We have 14. China is an adversary because of its economic clout and confidence. Its ability to project itself into the Indian Ocean is still nascent but growing. Your assessment is correct that if we had our fleet of 24 it would sharply increase the deterrence against the Chinese. Maybe a second Akula II would be a good idea. I believe it is under plan.

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

I understood that fuel cells (IN's choice of AIP) discharge slower while delivering tens of kW of power needed for loitering at at 2 - 7 knots, resulting in longer time underwater. Along with the fuel cell, if separate low power motors (tens of kW) are employed for AIP, it will increase the underwater time further. Tens of kW is too little a load for the big main motors, which will not have very good part load efficiency. The same load will be around 60% - 90% of the rated capacity for the separate small motors.

Your assessment is correct. Hence all/most IN submarines have one or more small creep motors whose rating would be in tens of kilowatts and not in thousands as would be the case with main motor.

Originally Posted by abhii176

Another brilliant thread Narayan sir, this brings back such fond memories of growing up in a naval family.I can remember being being on board the INS Viraat, INS Rana and INS Himgiri during those Family day functions and that feeling of sailing on these majestic warships is unparalleled!

You are a lucky person to have sailed/visited three of the finest ships of the Navy.

Just one small correction here, the fifth Rajput class destroyer is INS Ranvijay and not Ranvijit.

Thanks. You are right. An aside - there was to have been a 6th. But budgets and escalating price demands from the USSR scuttled it. That 6th vessel I was told was to have been named Ranvijit and its funny how that name crept into my typing three decades later.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Pakistan will always do what it can afford to bolster its underwater arm as it serves as a weapon of sea denial. We must not under estimate them. They have 5 meaningful subs - all French Agosta variants. Of these 2 are now quite old being well over 37-38 years in age and must be having limitations to their diving depth. They are planning these 8 from China and can be a nuisance for us.

Our assessment of the submarine fleet we need is around 24. We have 14. China is an adversary because of its economic clout and confidence. Its ability to project itself into the Indian Ocean is still nascent but growing. Your assessment is correct that if we had our fleet of 24 it would sharply increase the deterrence against the Chinese. Maybe a second Akula II would be a good idea. I believe it is under plan.

I guess the acquisition of 16 Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and 22 General Atomics Guardian Naval drone fills in the void left behind by lack of submarines. While the drone offers loitering capability, Poseidon can fire wing mounted anti-submarine torpedoes.





Seems good enough for Navy base defence against enemy submarines. However, I'm not sure if these birds can be used in an offensive role (because they are vulnerable to enemy fighter aircraft)