[shortbread]

The Turkish UK 5th generation fighter jet programme seems to be in the news lately for the wrong reasons. On paper it looks like a good fit, between UK a defense industry powerhouse with vast experience in developing fighter aircrafts and Turkey having the financial prowess as well as demand for the product.

This helps the UK which is not in an ideal position to go at it alone, primarily due to cost reasons. Turkey gains instant access to UK's expertise.

I wonder why India does not consider UK as a potential partner. While David Cameron's departure and Teresa May's arrival has seen relations grow colder, these are still two governments with very strong relations. Turkey, on the other hand, is undergoing political and economic turmoil. Even former allies US have now declined the earlier promised F35 order.

I think UK will be a more reliable partner than Russia as long as India shows the right initiative needed. BAE and HAL already have experience working together. This looks like a win-win for both nations.

A major UK arms deal with Turkey is reported to be in trouble today after aero-engine group Rolls-Royce became involved in a row over ownership of its leading-edge technology.

As UK braces for life after EU membership, it faces searching questions about its future trading and security relationships. This is why the putative partnership with Turkey to build a 5th gen fighter jet, the TF-X, carries particular resonance.

Rolls-Royce is bidding to supply the engines for the new "fifth-generation" TF-X stealth fighter jet which Turkey is developing as its first home-produced combat aircraft. The Rolls-Royce EJ200 engines from the Eurofighter have been tipped as the likely powerplant for the TF-X. British Aerospace is also involved and last year signed a £100m contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries to help design the jet.

The Anglo-Turkish collaboration has been hailed as a key to the long-term future of the UK aerospace sector as it will provide for continuing combat aircraft design expertise after production of the Eurofighter Typhoon comes to an end, sometime in the 2020s.

After months of delicate diplomacy, the deal has run into trouble. Initial concerns about the management of intellectual property was raised this year by Rolls-Royce, the British aero-engine group. Rolls-Royce had been asked by Turkish defence officials to share sensitive technology with a Turkish company, which it is reported to be unwilling to do.

New issues have surfaced, partly due to the involvement of a subsidiary of BMC, the Turkish defence manufacturer that has the Qatari government, and a businessman with close links to Erdogan, the incumbent Turkish president as shareholders. Turkish defence officials have upped the ante by again demanding that Rolls-Royce hand over sensitive technology.

Failure to strike a deal would be a lost revenue opportunity for Rolls-Royce — and BAE Systems, which is also involved. Far more important, however, are the ramifications for the UK’s air defence capability. The TF-X project could also help to fix a pressing problem at home in UK. Production of the Eurofighter Typhoon will cease in the mid-2020s. There is no new defence programme to maintain the UK’s sovereign capability to design and develop a combat jet.

The TF-X might allow the UK to maintain crucial expertise and a skilled workforce until the government’s options are clearer.

But jets burn holes in public and private budgets.The UK (unlike France, which systematically considers the wider economic benefits of building aircraft, including job creation and the tax take) has yet to figure out how best to defend projects with a billion-pound price tag.

Some argue that sovereign capability in combat aircraft, which the TF-X fighter jet would help provide, is worth almost any price. Finding the money will be difficult — despite significant cuts since 2010, the Ministry of Defence faces a funding gap of up to £21bn over the next decade. EU's determination to keep the UK out of joint defence programmes will make it even harder.

TheTFX is a twin-engine all-weather air superiority fighter being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries with technological assistance from BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. TFX program's conceptual designs thus far feature a design optimized for low radar cross-sectional density, internal weapons bays, and the ability to supercruise; features associated with fifth-generation fighter jets.

Sources:

https://www.ft.com/content/fd8f45ba-...1-31da4279a601

http://www.cityam.com/287517/rolls-r...kish-jet-deal-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX

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UK in talks with Sweden over next-generation fighter

The UK has held initial discussions with Sweden about collaborating on a future fighter jet, as it prepares to reveal a long-awaited combat air strategy* at the Farnborough air show later this month.

As part of the strategy, the government is expected to commit to launching a next-generation fighter programme by 2020 in a sign of its post-Brexit ambitions to retain cutting-edge combat air expertise.

The strategy, which is expected to set out a timeline for awarding a firm manufacturing contract by 2020, has yet to be given final cabinet approval. But it aims to deliver a strong signal to potential international partners that the UK is determined to press ahead with such a programme, despite being left out* of a Franco-German future fighter project last year.*

The statement is expected to set out the criteria for international collaboration, stressing that the UK intends to play a leading design role in any partnership to develop a fighter to replace the Typhoon jet from 2040. Sweden — whose defence flagship,*Saab, makes the Gripen combat aircraft — has indicated its potential interest and would be a natural partner, according to several sources.

The accord struck last summer between Paris and Berlin to work on a roadmap for a future fighter programme took the UK government by surprise and stunned executives at*BAE Systems, repository of Britain’s combat air expertise.

France and Germany last month signalled that initial plans for collaboration on a so-called sixth-generation fighter had expanded to include its role in a wider combat system. Dassault and Airbus have been named the prime industrial partners on the Franco-German project, while France will lead the programme. The two countries have said they would be open to working with other partners, but at a later stage. This has raised concerns that if Britain were to join the project it could be forced to take a secondary role.

The strategy will aim to do just that and will be a “strong statement of national interest”, according to one person close to the subject. However it will not mention the Franco-German accord and will deliberately leave the door open to other partners. As well as Sweden, Japan and South Korea could be potential partners, industry sources said.

BAE said: “We welcome debate about the need for next-generation combat air systems across many nations. We have a strong history of collaboration with other nations and continue to invest in new and emerging technologies so we can develop future aircraft.”

Although the strategy is not expected to define whether the next-generation jet will be manned or unmanned, it will set out policy goals, future requirements and timelines for certain milestones on a future fighter programme.

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/818c6b98-...7-1e1a0846c475

In other interesting developments:

UK defence minister Gavin Williamson under fire for not meeting Nirmala Sitharaman

Britain's Defence Minister Gavin Williamson is reportedly under fire from within the UK Cabinet for turning down a bilateral meeting with his Indian counterpart Nirmala Sitharaman, according to a media report which she dismissed as a "baseless story".

The meeting was requested over a month ago by Indian officials, and at least two British ministers including foreign secretary Boris Johnson reportedly sought to convince Williamson of the importance of finding time in the diary for Sitharaman.

Source: http://www.newindianexpress.com/worl...n-1836730.html

.....following which:

Disappointed,Sunday Times (UK).Baseless story,to say the least.The UK & India have a robust relationship.A mutually convenient date is being worked out for meeting & I look forward to it.@GavinWilliamson @DefenceHQ @theresa_may @10DowningStreet @MEAIndia

@nsitharaman

and

And I very much look forward to it too @nsitharaman

@GavinWilliamson


I hope all this leads to some fruitful defence cooperation, especially in the air defence sector. I think India should start thinking out of the box than the existing three tier plan which involves Russian aircraft, technology/manufacturing transfer to HAL and domestically developed and manufactured HAL aircraft.

While the challenges faced by all three have been discussed in strength it's perhaps time to look at cooperating with a new partners who posses thorough design capabilities and experience. At the same time also leverage India's financial and order-book prowess in this relationship, to create an indigenous product for it's own requirements.

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UK seeking partners for next generation fighter!

UK unveils new Tempest fighter jet to replace Typhoon.

The defence secretary - Gavin Williamson has unveiled plans for a new RAF fighter jet, the Tempest, which will eventually replace the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Speaking at the Farnborough airshow, he unveiled a concept version of the sixth-generation fighter jet the Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects to emerge from its new combat air strategy.

He said he wanted the Tempest to be flying alongside the existing fleet of Typhoons and the US-made F-35s by 2035.

The government said it would spend £2bn to develop the aircraft between now and 2025, using money set aside in 2015 for future combat air technologies, but gave no estimate of the overall cost of the Tempest programme. Private companies are also contributing funds and are thought to have spent hundreds of millions on the jet to date.

The Tempest will be able to fly unmanned, according to plans released by the MoD, and will have next-generation technology on board designed to cope with modern threats.

This will include “swarming” technology that uses artificial intelligence and machine learning to hit its targets, as well as directed energy weapons (DEW), which used concentrated bursts of laser, microwave or particle beam energy to inflict damage.

Tempest will be built by a consortium led by the British defence firm BAE Systems, with the engine-maker Rolls-Royce, the Italian aerospace company Leonardo and the pan-European missile manufacturer MBDA.

The UK has been excluded from a Franco-German fighter jet project that is already under way, and has not built a fighter jet alone for several decades.

However, Williamson, speaking in front of a group of military chiefs from around the world, indicated that Britain was seeking an international partner on the project.

“Our approach hinges on international collaboration,” he said.

“My question to potential partners in the room today is simple, how can you work with us, how can we work with you?”

Sweden has been mooted as a potential partner to develop the Tempest.

source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...orough-airshow

Wonder if the topic would come up during the upcoming meeting between the UK Defense secretary and the Indian Defence minister.

While the much touted......

Russia admits defeat on its 'stealth' F-35 killer by canceling mass production of the Su-57 fighter jet

Russia announced earlier this month that the Su-57, its proposed entry into the world of fifth-generation stealth-fighter aircraft, would not see mass production.

Instead, Russia will stick to what it's good at, with upgraded fourth-generation aircraft in service instead of the Su-57, which was originally meant to replace the older fighters.

Initially proposed as a joint project with India, the Su-57 hit trouble when neither side could agree on how to split the production and technological development. After 11 years in the program, India withdrew, leaving Russia to go it alone with a weak economy.

The Su-57 was never really 5th-generation — and never really stealth.

A senior stealth scientist recently told Business Insider that though the jet claimed a stealthy profile, it had glaring and obvious flaws. A 2016 report from IHS Jane's said the jet was fifth-generation "in name only."

But the Su-57 carries a massive payload and was expected to one day carry nuclear weapons. Like the Su-35 before it, had super maneuverability beyond that of any US jet.

By all means, the Su-57 appeared a next-level dogfighting jet capable of taking out the US's best fighters in close combat, but its failure to integrate stealth made getting in close with an F-35 or F-22 an unlikely bet.

Justin Bronk, a combat-aviation expert at the Royal United Services Institute, told Business Insider that Russia must have looked at the program and realized that it didn't have the potential — even with upgrades and maturation — to ever work out to be worth the price. At about $40 million a unit, Russia's Su-57 is less than half the price of an F-35, but considerably more expensive than its other jets.

"Russia is more or less admitting defeat in building a feasible fifth-generation fighter," Bronk said.

For that price, according to Bronk, Russia can just put the fancy radars and missiles on its older planes in greater numbers, as the Su-57's airframe was never really stealth in the first place.

As the US's F-35 starts to come online in significant numbers and China's J-20 stealth jet deploys in earnest, it looks as if Russia is getting left behind in the world of top-class militaries.

source: http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia...duction-2018-7

[ads11]

http://idrw.org/uk-to-invite-india-t...craft-tempest/

The original business insider article was paywall protected so found the article quoted here.

After having spurned Moscow’s proposal to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be invited this month by the UK to co-develop a sixth-generation fighter called the Tempest. Business Standard learns that a UK delegation, including Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials and executives from British defence giant BAE Systems, who will arrive on February 18 for the Aero India 2019 exhibition in Bengaluru, will brief Indian MoD and IAF officials and gauge the potential for collaboration. “We are looking for international partners to access the best assured capability (for developing the Tempest),” said Nik Khanna, who heads BAE Systems India. The Tempest fighter will be targeted to enter service around 2035-2040, when the earliest Eurofighter Typhoons – in service in the UK, German, Italian, Spanish, Saudi Arabian, and Omani air forces – start to retire. Tempest was first unveiled as a concept fighter at the Farnborough Airshow in the UK last summer. The Tempest’s configuration and capabilities are still being worked out. Under discussion are questions like whether it will be manned or remotely piloted, whether it will have a variable cycle engine and be capable of “directed energy” attacks, using weapons like laser beams; whether it will control drones for “swarm attacks”, and incorporate artificial intelligence and deep learning. The only thing that seems clear is that the sixth-generation Tempest will be technologically far more advanced than current fifth-generation fighters like the F-22, F-35, J-20, and J-31. The so-called Team Tempest, which will develop this futuristic fighter, includes, besides BAE Systems as the lead integrator, Rolls-Royce for the engines, Leonardo UK for sensors, and MBDA UK for missile systems. In addition to these, the UK believes other international partners, such as India, will be essential. Officials in Team Tempest say international partners will be chosen based on four parameters: a large military that will buy more aircraft; a large defence budget to pay development costs; industrial capability to play a useful development role; and powerful international influence to support the alliance. Asked what role India could play in developing such an advanced fighter, Khanna said: “A big cost driver for a futuristic aerospace system is going to be the requirement for more and more software engineers. India has a huge capability in that area.”This search for foreign partners for Team Tempest comes at a time of decline for British defence industry. On Thursday, Financial Times cited a new report by research firm IHS Markit that finds “Britain is set to become a net importer of defence equipment for the first time since the Civil War in the mid-17th century.” To reverse this trend, the UK has unveiled a Combat Air Strategy that undergirds the Tempest announcement. BAE Systems sources say this is a British statement of intent to retain its century-old leading role in the field of aerial combat, including nurturing aerospace industry as a key component of that. In Farnborough, the UK government had announced a 2-billion pound investment into British aerospace industry, to create capabilities that would support the Tempest programme. It was hoped that this high profile announcement of an iconic programme would inspire young engineers to work in this sector. It was also hoped that this would encourage investments into the British aerospace sector. “The UK combat air sector is a national asset. Not just the Royal Air Force, but also the industry that underpins that, creating 18,000 skilled jobs as well,” said a source in the UK defence ministry. Asked whether India would be able to shape the configuration of the Tempest fighter, Khanna stated: “We are committed to engaging with potential international partners at the very start of the programme so we can ensure that any system is designed with all partners’ interests in mind, as opposed to developing a system that is purely for the UK.”

TL:DR - just seems like a bit of mutual batting of eye lids. Honestly for the British a partnership with the Japanese would make far more sense, or even the South Koreans. The Japanese especially are desperate for their own 5th gen programme, they've been flirting relentlessly with the USAF and Congress to get any sort of deal they can to get their hands on F-22's. The British desperately need the capital and a partner who likely wouldn't get mired down by whatever nebulous new regulations will exist following Brexit.

For India's part I mean it's not something to complain about. Probably unlikely to be stiffed by the Brits here like anywhere else and well let's be honest, post Brexit, the UK will be a bit desperate for big deals that reassure the public they can still do deals independently so they'll likely be a lot less hard nosed in any negotiations. The problem as ever is simply time. India just needs to get a move on, pick a partner, stick to a programme and get cracking. But this is India, who are we kidding

[V.Narayan]

^^^^^
Thank you for sharing. I would have missed it in the normal course. We do need a equal footing collaborative programme of jointly developing a fighter. We could learn so much from it on design, project management, aeronautical technology, the process of testing, debugging and maturing a design and finally the long jump to getting it into service. The last two being the spots on snakes and ladder board where Tejas has been stuck at for a decade. But our worthy politicians and worse our narrow minded bureaucrats don't get it. And we are likely to, sadly, waddle along trying to reinvent everything from LCA to Kaveri. End of rant.

The British should be interesting choice to partner with. The two countries with whom we have well established partnering processes and tribal knowledge are Russia and the UK. Neither are saints and without a big customer partner I doubt the UK can go it alone on this project.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by ads11

http://idrw.org/uk-to-invite-india-t...craft-tempest/



TLR - just seems like a bit of mutual batting of eye lids. Honestly for the British a partnership with the Japanese would make far more sense, or even the South Koreans. The Japanese especially are desperate for their own 5th gen programme, they've been flirting relentlessly with the USAF and Congress to get any sort of deal they can to get their hands on F-22's. The British desperately need the capital and a partner who likely wouldn't get mired down by whatever nebulous new regulations will exist following Brexit.

For India's part I mean it's not something to complain about. Probably unlikely to be stiffed by the Brits here like anywhere else and well let's be honest, post Brexit, the UK will be a bit desperate for big deals that reassure the public they can still do deals independently so they'll likely be a lot less hard nosed in any negotiations. The problem as ever is simply time. India just needs to get a move on, pick a partner, stick to a programme and get cracking. But this is India, who are we kidding

This is the sort of co-operation that India ideally wants, a partner with a proven track record. The Russian 5th gen project is not taking off so India should look to jump into one that is likely to deliver.

While the UK's aircraft carrier fiasco proves nothing is straightforward even among the most experienced, nonetheless they will deliver. Especially if pride (and hence a vote-bank) is related to a project, the British Govt will push for results.

HAL cannot do this, it simply cannot. A 4th gen fighter is still undergoing development after 4 decades! Not wholly the organisation's fault, the IAF, consecutive Governments are all to blame. But the HAL cannot pull this off, it's not simply a question/questionable skills. They do not have the project management skills to meet timelines or deliver results, especially when the product is so complex.

India has the financial prowess and an order book that any aircraft supplier will envy. Forget the IT expertise bull-crap being discussed above, what they need from India is the orders and someone to share the development costs.

In an ideal scenario the Govt should push to develop two aircraft corporations with private involvement.Eg. 1) to assemble/manufacture jets for immediate requirement eg. Tata/Lockheed Marten and 2) A conglomerate with BAE involved in the 6th gen fighter project.