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Old 13th August 2018, 15:40   #16
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
I don't know if I should be happy or appalled at the fact that most of these problems have persisted for more than 35 years sir! I definitely agree with you on the cabin comfort aspect. More than air-conditioning, a harsh ride is what ails the drivers today. Air flow in the cabin is not a problem because these trucks mostly travel on highways (except maybe in the hottest of areas). We all would definitely love to hear more from you on the state of this industry back then!
It is dangerous to ask oldies like me to start talking because we don't know when to stop and usually repeat the same story 5.16 times. In the early 1980s the scene was Tata and Ashok Leyland for what were considered HCVs then ie above 10 tonnes. Period. There were no MCVs and then you came to M&M LCVs and some apologetic LCVs from HM and Premier. Sale of trucks for cash was common. 99% of the time what we sold was the chassis. The cabin and body was built 'locally'. The 1940s Chevrolets and Bedfords were around in large numbers. The operators were more fragmented then than now. The service they were selling was transportation of cargo rather than the more all encompassing logistics approach that the larger companies follow now. The drivers stole not just fuel but also the 'lubrication money' for the route. The cultural gap between the truck owners and young MBAs like me was greater then than it is now. I learnt after a while that my tucking in my shirt, wearing a belt and wearing socks was their sign that I was an outside city bred chhora. So I soon switched to bush shirts and slip on shoes without socks to better ingratiate myself with my customers.!! Let alone cell phones we had very little by way of land telephones then. So either the driver had to be a very trusted guy (very very often from the same or a neighbouring village) or two or three trucks [even from different firms]travelled in a loose spread out convoy with one family representative to keep an eye and make sure the trucks and good reached the other end and came back and all the lubrication money did not magically disappear.

I think the industry is in the midst of a storm of changes driven by telephony, GPS, proper highways and digital records. The face maybe very different in 12 to 15 years time. When our unscrupulous cops will change I don't have the gumption to hazard a guess.
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:33   #17
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
Navistar couldn't really hit the ground running with M&M but I would be surprised if they too didn't pick up something useful.
Mahindra-Navistar JV indeed launched products but they were selling around 200-300 units per month. So Navistar exited from the JV selling their assets to Mahindra. Later Mahindra tweaked their strategy and rebranded their products by omitting Navistar logo. Also, they introduced 2-3 new products, now they are doing around 2000 units I guess.

Navistar had an understanding with Mahindra to buy engines and engine parts from another JV (Mahindra Navistar Engines Pvt Ltd, later renamed as Mahindra Heavy Engines Pvt Ltd) which both of them formed. Unfortunately, I don't have any recent updates about that.

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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
Maybe an airline type rule would be prudent here. But how it will be enforced is another matter altogether.
Very true. In Australia, in the state (NSW) where we reside, the heavy vehicle movements are tracked using GPS and drivers are mandated to take breaks. Both the driver and his organization are accountable for this. Something similar may come up soon.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:46   #18
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
The cultural gap between the truck owners and young MBAs like me was greater then than it is now. I learnt after a while that my tucking in my shirt, wearing a belt and wearing socks was their sign that I was an outside city bred chhora. So I soon switched to bush shirts and slip on shoes without socks to better ingratiate myself with my customers.!!
Today's market is no different sir! First impressions are crucial! The customers carefully observe not only the dealer and company sales engineer, but the service engineer too. Their demeanor can make all the difference in a sales pitch sometimes. Some customers even remark that an unshaven bearded guy can't be trusted, or that a guy without a grease stain on his shirt is a nobody.

If you read the book 'Icon' by Frederick Forsyth, you can get a sense of the relationship between the service/sales engineer and the customer. Though the analogy is a bit far-fetched since the book talks about the relationship between spies and their handlers, the service/sales engineer is in a similar position. He/She develops a close bond with the customer and is sometimes forced into a position that is right in the middle of the company and the customer. The life of a service engineer is one of midnight wake up calls, irregularly timed meals and tea.

A customer once called a service engineer at 2 AM and said 'You don't have any moral ground to sleep when my vehicle is off the road because of a breakdown!'.

Quote:
Let alone cell phones we had very little by way of land telephones then. So either the driver had to be a very trusted guy (very very often from the same or a neighbouring village) or two or three trucks [even from different firms]travelled in a loose spread out convoy with one family representative to keep an eye and make sure the trucks and good reached the other end and came back and all the lubrication money did not magically disappear.
The convoy practice is still prevalent today but for a different reason - to hedge against banditry. Money for the fuel and other needs is handed over to the drivers and they typically drive in a convoy of 4 or 5 trucks, changing positions as they move along. Was this problem rampant back then?


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Originally Posted by MaxTorque View Post
Mahindra-Navistar JV indeed launched products but they were selling around 200-300 units per month. So Navistar exited from the JV selling their assets to Mahindra. Later Mahindra tweaked their strategy and rebranded their products by omitting Navistar logo. Also, they introduced 2-3 new products, now they are doing around 2000 units I guess.
The original Mahindra Navistar truck was actually a good product with a soft ride and a good engine. They suffered because their network wasn't large enough and they had to piggyback on the backs of dealers who already had Tata and Ashok Leyland dealerships. Even today, such dealerships exist. Your business is now dictated by the whims of the dealer staff rather than the product. It is never a good idea to offer two brands under the same roof, especially in this market.

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Very true. In Australia, in the state (NSW) where we reside, the heavy vehicle movements are tracked using GPS and drivers are mandated to take breaks. Both the driver and his organization are accountable for this. Something similar may come up soon.
That's heartening to hear. How is that enforced? How are the rest breaks measured? Can that model be replicated here?

Last edited by harikrishna.te : 14th August 2018 at 08:51.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:06   #19
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

Thank you, harikrishna.te for a good write-up

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
... power steering ... should be made mandatory in the trucks.
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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
Power steering today is common in almost all trucks and buses, except for the dirt cheap ones. The LCV market used to offer power steering as an advanced option but that too is slowly becoming a standard feature.
Power Steering is mandatory in 16T+ CVs, by law. It's next to impossible to find drivers who would agree to drive lorries without power steering, be in ICVs or the upper end of LCV spectrum. It's trickling down to even SCVs these days, thanks to the traffic conditions and duty demands. The "dirt cheap" HCVs are no more, most of them would've been scrapped already, after their useful service life.

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
...air conditioned cabin... automatic gearbox
More than these two, there has to be a cultural shift in the way drivers are treated. It has to start from the other motorists to the authorities. The cabins of fully built trucks are as comfy as they can get, some offer AC as an optional add-on to the standard blower system. Automatic gearboxes would result in savings only for fleet owners when the variance in fuel economy due to driver skill is huge. For small players with just 1-2 drivers per vehicle, it's good enough if the power train is maintained well, and all new trucks have hydraulically assisted clutch systems and synchro'ed gears.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:34   #20
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
The original Mahindra Navistar truck was actually a good product with a soft ride and a good engine. They suffered because their network wasn't large That's heartening to hear. How is that enforced? How are the rest breaks measured? Can that model be replicated here?
It is a very vast topic in itself. The fatigue management has been described and enforced. The heavy vehicles have been categorized as Fatigue regulated vehicles and there is a national authority to monitor.

National heavy vehicle driver fatigue laws apply to fatigue-regulated heavy vehicles, which are:

a vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) of over 12t
a combination when the total of the GVM is over 12t
buses with a GVM over 4.5t fitted to carry more than 12 adults (including the driver)
a truck, or a combination including a truck, with a GVM of over 12t with a machine or implement attached.


The drivers need to maintain a diary of their work and rest hours and the vehicle movements are monitored using GPS. The time to cover the distance two monitoring points are recorded and the diaries are cross-checked by authorities.

One guideline related to rest and working hours has been attached.

This can be done in anywhere but we better know our limitations and problems. So not detailing.

More details are here
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Old 14th August 2018, 12:12   #21
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by MaxTorque View Post
...
The drivers need to maintain a diary of their work and rest hours and the vehicle movements are monitored using GPS. The time to cover the distance two monitoring points are recorded and the diaries are cross-checked by authorities. ...[/url]
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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
...
That's heartening to hear. How is that enforced? How are the rest breaks measured? Can that model be replicated here?
That used to be the case here too. They now have switched over to truck built-in telematics. The older system used to be a round time sheet, that needs to be punched in and out everytime the vehicle is stopped for a break.

The newer telematics (since you are in chennai, I guess you work for the big German brand), as in the German trucks are integrated in the vehicle management system. There has to be a 15min break for every 3 hrs driven and total driving time shall not exceed 9 hrs (i am not 100% sure about this number though) and need to have a break of 12 hrs. In some countries like Austria, weekends (saturday and sunday) and other festival days are completely drive prohibition for heavy vehicles. Some countries like Belgium even mandate that the drivers should not spend their rest time in their truck cabins rather only in hotels or motels. The company employing them will be fined heavily if caught. The trucks won't start if the pause time is not attained and once the time to take a break is reached, the truck gives out a nagging audible warning to the drivers. This gets really annoying when ignored. The best solution atleast in Swiss and Austria is that if there is no need for a truck to be on the road (non-perishable/non-urgent deliveries), they are loaded on the Rail-Road trains.

In genenral, the fines for not obeying the break rules are quite heavy. The police usually run random checks at highway rest places and pick trucks out of the highway to check their running time etc. More than all of this, emergency brakes, collision avoidance brakes are mandatory and soon the blind spot warning will be made mandatory. Further, the Swiss and the Austrian government will fine the owners/employers/logistics company heavily if they choose to take the road than the Rail-Road train system for goods of other than urgent/perishable nature. Slowly, Europe is making the trucks as the last mile connectivity system and not the full fledged transport/logistic solution.

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 14th August 2018 at 12:18.
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Old 14th August 2018, 12:51   #22
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
Power Steering is mandatory in 16T+ CVs, by law. It's next to impossible to find drivers who would agree to drive lorries without power steering, be in ICVs or the upper end of LCV spectrum. It's trickling down to even SCVs these days, thanks to the traffic conditions and duty demands. The "dirt cheap" HCVs are no more, most of them would've been scrapped already, after their useful service life.
I was referring to the 8 - 14 ton ICVs that come with an optional power steering. This is a consequence of value engineering. But you are right. Manual steering is rarely seen these days.

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Originally Posted by MaxTorque View Post
It is a very vast topic in itself. The fatigue management has been described and enforced. The heavy vehicles have been categorized as Fatigue regulated vehicles and there is a national authority to monitor.
One guideline related to rest and working hours has been attached.
That's very informative thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
The newer telematics (since you are in chennai, I guess you work for the big German brand), as in the German trucks are integrated in the vehicle management system.
Where I work is immaterial because I have striven to make this article as neutral as possible, without lending support to or favoring any specific OEM. But no, I don't work for them

Quote:
There has to be a 15min break for every 3 hrs driven and total driving time shall not exceed 9 hrs (i am not 100% sure about this number though) and need to have a break of 12 hrs. In some countries like Austria, weekends (saturday and sunday) and other festival days are completely drive prohibition for heavy vehicles. Some countries like Belgium even mandate that the drivers should not spend their rest time in their truck cabins rather only in hotels or motels. The company employing them will be fined heavily if caught. The trucks won't start if the pause time is not attained and once the time to take a break is reached, the truck gives out a nagging audible warning to the drivers. This gets really annoying when ignored. The best solution atleast in Swiss and Austria is that if there is no need for a truck to be on the road (non-perishable/non-urgent deliveries), they are loaded on the Rail-Road trains.
This is where we need technological solutions! I am very happy to know that it is being taken so seriously in Europe. I know for a fact that seat manufacturers like Harita are working on similar solutions to sense driver fatigue and warn/stop the vehicle when a pre-set limit is exceeded. As MaxTorque said, the guidelines are different from region to region but the essence remains the same. A foolproof system for India is going to take a while though.
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Old 14th August 2018, 13:36   #23
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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Originally Posted by harikrishna.te View Post
...
Where I work is immaterial because I have striven to make this article as neutral as possible, without lending support to or favoring any specific OEM. But no, I don't work for them
The intention was to not add any bias to this thread/Discussion. I was intending on that brand because if you were to be a part of that brand, you would have know the intricate details of its implementation which is brand specific and their proprietary property. I am sure your organisation too has such solutions. How is the customer demand for such telematics, if there is any at all?

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I know for a fact that seat manufacturers like Harita are working on similar solutions to sense driver fatigue and warn/stop the vehicle when a pre-set limit is exceeded ... A foolproof system for India is going to take a while though.
Harita? Can you explain a bit more in brief? (if you are allowed to).I have seen such solution being implemented in the latest batch of AL built SETC buses with radar based collision avoidance brakes and camera based driving fatigue monitoring systems. Are you talking about these?

I have heard a lot of complaints from the drivers here in Germany about the emergency collision avoidance systems. They are prone to brake the vehicle abruptly due to false positive detections like road seperation islands or the road signs etc. Also, on the highway, when a vehicle merges too close in front of the truck, the system triggers an emergency brake which can cause a following collision. Such accidents have happened. IMHO, No technology is foolproof unless the human behind it is alert enough.

A foolproof system for India need to be based on fully integrated in-vehicle systems that cannot be overridden by external brute force attacks. At the end of the chain, the owners or operators need to see this as a utility and savings for their assets and the drivers need to see this as driver aids and not as something intervening in their profession.
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Old 14th August 2018, 13:43   #24
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

If a vehicle is designed for overloading, then it will definitely be overloaded. The key to avoid overloading is that the vehicle design itself should prohibit overloading (beyond a safety factor of course). E.g. a 25 tonnes capacity vehicle with a 10% safety margin should sink on its suspension and be non-drivable if loaded beyond 28 tonnes. But, then overloading is what keeps the entire CV ecosystem (from manufacturer to transporter and law enforcement) alive.
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Old 14th August 2018, 15:50   #25
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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...I was intending on that brand because if you were to be a part of that brand...
This brand is nowhere close to certain other home-grown others, when it comes to trying out things

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
No technology is foolproof unless the human behind it is alert enough
The focus is now on removing the dependency on this human - the nut behind the wheel

Some fleet owners in the EU are very tech savvy, while others are only marginally better than our Indian counterparts. Heck, I have spoken to one fleet owner who was happy to lend one of their trucks for R&D, and also offered to do a pilot run for a certain niche technology. In India, VRL is one brand that tries to do a lot of R&D on their vehicles to reduce down time and also make them safer.

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A foolproof system for India need to be based on fully integrated in-vehicle systems that cannot be overridden by external brute force attacks.
This is sadly quite some time away. Reason is, regulations are watered down after each review and the final one that comes to force is at best treated as a guideline and not a rule. Case in point, the AIS-052 and AIS-063 norms that are now mandatory for buses and school buses. They're indeed a step in the right direction, but that's not enough and simply setting a deadline will not work.

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Originally Posted by low_rider View Post
If a vehicle is designed for overloading, then it will definitely be overloaded. The key to avoid overloading is that the vehicle design itself should prohibit overloading
AL had brought in an ICV range branded as Cargo, in partnership with IVECO. The vehicle was advanced for its time, but it didn't take overloading that well, compared to the conventional trucks. It didn't do well in the market. Over-engineering is needed, based on the application and market. At the same time, enforcement of rules is also key

Last edited by silversteed : 14th August 2018 at 15:57.
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Old 14th August 2018, 15:50   #26
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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The intention was to not add any bias to this thread/Discussion. I was intending on that brand because if you were to be a part of that brand, you would have know the intricate details of its implementation which is brand specific and their proprietary property. I am sure your organisation too has such solutions. How is the customer demand for such telematics, if there is any at all?
The trend these days is for OEMs to experiment with in-house telematics solutions till a start-up comes with a solution. All brands have a basic telematics system but it is very difficult to convince customers to invest in solutions that don't give them tangible benefits immediately. That said, it is still in a nascent phase and will gain more traction in the months to come.

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Harita? Can you explain a bit more in brief? (if you are allowed to).I have seen such solution being implemented in the latest batch of AL built SETC buses with radar based collision avoidance brakes and camera based driving fatigue monitoring systems. Are you talking about these?
No, the technology that I am talking about is called Intelliseat (this information is publicly available).



It gauges and predicts the fatigue level of the driver based on his position and alerts the driver/fleet owner accordingly. It was developed jointly with IIT Madras.

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IMHO, No technology is foolproof unless the human behind it is alert enough.
Golden words man, golden words!

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A foolproof system for India need to be based on fully integrated in-vehicle systems that cannot be overridden by external brute force attacks. At the end of the chain, the owners or operators need to see this as a utility and savings for their assets and the drivers need to see this as driver aids and not as something intervening in their profession.
To me, this is the biggest challenge in India. There is always a way for the operators/drivers to bypass the system. On a similar note, digital security experts should be brought on board to ensure that they are not hacked into.

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Originally Posted by low_rider View Post
If a vehicle is designed for overloading, then it will definitely be overloaded. The key to avoid overloading is that the vehicle design itself should prohibit overloading (beyond a safety factor of course). E.g. a 25 tonnes capacity vehicle with a 10% safety margin should sink on its suspension and be non-drivable if loaded beyond 28 tonnes. But, then overloading is what keeps the entire CV ecosystem (from manufacturer to transporter and law enforcement) alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silversteed
At the same time, enforcement of rule is also key
While that may be true, the scenario is shifting. A friend who worked as a service engineer in Mumbai told me that the police officials are extremely strict about overloading. If this spreads through the country, we may start to see warranty costs come down for the manufacturers.

Last edited by harikrishna.te : 14th August 2018 at 15:54.
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Old 14th August 2018, 17:23   #27
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

Good article

An observation - I have never seen a truck driver who wears spectacles. It points to either vanity, a miracle or downright negligence about employee health. Coming to the latter, I remember 30 years ago when Simpson assembled Ford trucks. A friend of mine bought one for his factory, pulled out the nice comfy drivers seat and put it in their Standard 20 van and put a bone hard wicker seat in the truck. Thats how drivers are/were seen and treated!

Abroad, tachographs measure and regulate driver hours. This does not happen here and nobody cares. Considering our long routes, large companies should consider a stagecoach method of things. i.e a driver takes the load from A to B and hands over to another driver and returns with another load travelling from B to A. However this is difficult to schedule but it would be better for drivers.

Enough has been said about the vehicles and overloading. A friend of mine who worked with financing Volvo's initially found that owners were not interested in TCO, it was cheaper to overload a locally made 20 tonne truck by a factor of 2 and discard it after 3 years as opposed to procuring a 40 tonne truck for 3 times the price.

Better sensible enforced regulation will bring in better trucks.
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Old 14th August 2018, 21:16   #28
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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An observation - I have never seen a truck driver who wears spectacles.
I think that was pointed out by Volvo marketing when they first came into India.



Quote:
Coming to the latter, I remember 30 years ago when Simpson assembled Ford trucks. A friend of mine bought one for his factory, pulled out the nice comfy drivers seat and put it in their Standard 20 van and put a bone hard wicker seat in the truck. Thats how drivers are/were seen and treated!
Just after the Bangladesh war, there were quite a few Izuzu trucks here. (Most probably leftovers from some UN work here). Anyway, these had airconditioners. Which were promptly stripped away and sold. (Though for the life of me can't figure out who would want to buy them).


GPS (and attendant movement tracking) is already mandatory in commercial vehicles now I think.

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Old 14th August 2018, 23:11   #29
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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An observation - I have never seen a truck driver who wears spectacles.
Really? My grandfather had a transport business. 2 of my "uncles"on whose shoulders I used to plant myself most as a kid, both wore specs. This was in the 80s.

I do not see bespectacled drivers in North India though.
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Old 16th August 2018, 13:38   #30
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Re: Niggling Issues in the Commercial Vehicle industry - An Insider's Perspective

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An observation - I have never seen a truck driver who wears spectacles. It points to either vanity, a miracle or downright negligence about employee health.
An astute observation! That is primarily because they would never have got themselves checked.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Just after the Bangladesh war, there were quite a few Izuzu trucks here. (Most probably leftovers from some UN work here). Anyway, these had airconditioners. Which were promptly stripped away and sold. (Though for the life of me can't figure out who would want to buy them).
That's interesting. Could it have been done by the owners to make the environment less relaxing for their drivers, or was it driven by monetary motives? Or maybe both?


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Originally Posted by chinkara View Post
Really? My grandfather had a transport business. 2 of my "uncles"on whose shoulders I used to plant myself most as a kid, both wore specs. This was in the 80s.

I do not see bespectacled drivers in North India though.
This is a problem not just in a specific part of the country. Drivers today are exposed to a wide range of health issues like Asthma, STDs, lower back disc bulge/slip, food poisoning and digestive issues.

I wonder though, were they happy drivers back then? You are very uniquely placed to answer that, given your association with them!
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