[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by harikrishna.te

That's interesting. Could it have been done by the owners to make the environment less relaxing for their drivers, or was it driven by monetary motives? Or maybe both?

I think the reason was monetary. (Same as out of the factory cabs - owners would sell off the new tyres, and seatbelts). But as I said, I don't think they got anything more than scrap value. Because I don't see who would buy it.

Or maybe it was a Gandhian instinct. AC = Luxury = Sinful. (Even now I think that thinking prevails GST on ACs (and auto parts) - 28%)

Regards
Sutripta

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by harikrishna.te

This is a problem not just in a specific part of the country. Drivers today are exposed to a wide range of health issues like Asthma, STDs, lower back disc bulge/slip, food poisoning and digestive issues.

I wonder though, were they happy drivers back then? You are very uniquely placed to answer that, given your association with them!

Happiness is a state of mind. I still see happy drivers, although yes, people are generally getting angrier.

Health issues were always there. You can add TB to the list.
As an aside, there are areas where truckers do not like to go due to food issues. MP - Chattisgarh was a particular problem area. On routes like Kolkata-Delhi they had their own preferred dhabas and were always ready to travel.

[D33-PAC]

India is a very peculiar case in the CV industry across the world in general.


I have seen tippers being manned by 18 year olds. Anybody who has lived in Indian metros knows this is a fact. A lot of the contractors for construction work subcontract excavation to small time contractors who hire poor family members. 18-20 year olds driving 10 wheeled Ashok Leylands and Tata tippers is quite common.


Lastly - I have also noticed - an absolute lack of maintenance in the CV industry across the world. I have had the opportunity to drive trucks in USA and India - for fun.



In general, construction industry related assets at least - are seen as how men view prostitutes. It's a very rough tough use and throw relation.



Many of the parts are broken, interior is nasty, seats are torn. So on so forth.


Why will anyone volunteer to work in this kind of an environment unless they had absolutely 0 option which also leads to the question of - hiring the right kind of driver. Only dubious people will work in such conditions.



Having said that, I have to say it is probably the worst job on earth. I hated every single second of my limited truck driving experience. It takes 5-6 inches of pedal depression to stop the vehicle. It takes 3-4 gears just to get to normal cruising speed.



Then there's the abnormal cabin movement and rattle - you can wave goodbye to your spine if you were to hit a speed-bump at 50 KMPH +.


Then there's the general slow movement - the feeling of sitting up very high in a machine that's difficult to maneuver and having every bump transmitted to your spine is horrific. Not to mention the noise levels.


Most of us doing white collar work have no idea how lucky we are. Truck driving is quite literally hell on earth. I think maybe working as a bomb detector is worse.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by honeybee

As an aside, after having watched the BEST buses move from manual transmission to automatic

Did this not happen as early as 2004-2005? I have a very clear memory of hoping onto rear engine Ashok Leyland air conditioned BEST bus with an automatic gearbox. It was already in a sorry state. I had not seen this bus in any other state, especially Tamil Nadu where Leyland rules.

Getting back CV's, some of the struggles we have with moving cargo can be solved with a little help from Indian Railways. I cannot understand why only one zone in all of Indian Railways, that is, Konkan Railway manages to operate a highly successful Roll On Roll Off service. 800 km of distance covered on a priority basis. This service operates on a schedule, just like a passenger train. 15 hour travel time for this distance is as good as express train speed. There is no way a truck can cover so much distance if it were done by road.

Times have changed. What was once a market full of crude trucks is now filled with options where your driver can stay on the road for longer. It is still a pretty rough job but the better comfort you put your driver in, the less they should whine.

Formal driver training is definitely missing and unlike the developed world where the wages of a truck driver are respectable, it is a different story in India. Volvo is about the only company I know that took a stand in formal driver training. If you bought a B7R, the deal included the cost to train two drivers under Volvo's driver certification program. This offer was available for their truck fleet too. I have yet to hear of any other manufacturer following this trend.

I also appreciate the professionalism that the CV industry has moved towards. A friend who was in the natural vinegar business was looking for a cost effective solution to move his cargo. He approached Volvo and some Indian player. Volvo's solution was clearly out of reach from a cost perspective. Then came a bit of advice from the sales representative which was a bit of a surprise. My friend was advised that if money were being put on a Volvo, the truck better not stand idle for even a minute. The prohibitive cost of the truck basically meant that the truck better run non stop, in terms of recovery on investment. Every time the truck idles, you are going to lose money. This took me by surprise. This sort of sales pitch is not so great for Volvo's CV sales target but it goes to show that they want their customers to benefit from their investment and make the most of it.

Superb thread.

[honeybee]

Doesn't Ashok Leyland operate a driver training school near Bangalore?

I remember reading about it in Autocar some years back.

[harikrishna.te]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

Having said that, I have to say it is probably the worst job on earth. I hated every single second of my limited truck driving experience. It takes 5-6 inches of pedal depression to stop the vehicle. It takes 3-4 gears just to get to normal cruising speed.

Then there's the abnormal cabin movement and rattle - you can wave goodbye to your spine if you were to hit a speed-bump at 50 KMPH +.

When such a comparison is made, it is always easy for us to keep our cars as references. Let's not forget that these vehicles haul goods 2-3 times their own weight and often take a lot of time to get going. If it didn't require 3-4 gears just to get to normal cruising speed, the customers would be up in arms about the fuel efficiency!

As I mentioned earlier, cabin ride comfort has significantly improved over the last five years and it is no longer an ordeal for drivers to drive them, except in the most testing conditions.

Personally, there's no better feeling than driving a truck on the open road! (even with my limited experience)

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I also appreciate the professionalism that the CV industry has moved towards. A friend who was in the natural vinegar business was looking for a cost effective solution to move his cargo. He approached Volvo and some Indian player. Volvo's solution was clearly out of reach from a cost perspective. Then came a bit of advice from the sales representative which was a bit of a surprise. My friend was advised that if money were being put on a Volvo, the truck better not stand idle for even a minute. The prohibitive cost of the truck basically meant that the truck better run non stop, in terms of recovery on investment. Every time the truck idles, you are going to lose money.

Unfortunately, there's a Catch-22 situation here. With the fuel costs rising, it is difficult to get the same returns on every trip. Also, it is not easy to find cargo for every trip unless the operator is a big name in the industry.
Rivigo's model is built on the same premise though - non-stop operations to maximize ROI.

Originally Posted by honeybee

Doesn't Ashok Leyland operate a driver training school near Bangalore?

I remember reading about it in Autocar some years back.

Yes, there are 9 such institutes run by AL across the country (Source)

I have seen locals queue up before the institute gates on the Namakkal road. Apparently, the institute has a tie-up with the government on certain training courses. The experience is somewhat similar to what is described in this wonderful thread. (Link)

[harikrishna.te]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Volvo's solution was clearly out of reach from a cost perspective. Then came a bit of advice from the sales representative which was a bit of a surprise. My friend was advised that if money were being put on a Volvo, the truck better not stand idle for even a minute. The prohibitive cost of the truck basically meant that the truck better run non stop, in terms of recovery on investment. Every time the truck idles, you are going to lose money. This took me by surprise. This sort of sales pitch is not so great for Volvo's CV sales target but it goes to show that they want their customers to benefit from their investment and make the most of it.

Did your friend ever have to contend with the issue of spares availability or spurious parts? A lot of work has to go into testing the durability and reliability of a vehicle, particularly when it is being used on 24 hour 'shifts'.

The weakest links start to give way and finding the right spares, especially when a Volvo/any other truck is stuck on a highway in the middle of nowhere, is extremely difficult. A huge distribution network is required to keep these vehicles on the road!

This is yet another issue that is niggling the CV industry (and to a lesser extent, the passenger car industry - because of a much larger network) today.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by harikrishna.te

Did your friend ever have to contend with the issue of spares availability or spurious parts? A lot of work has to go into testing the durability and reliability of a vehicle, particularly when it is being used on 24 hour 'shifts'.

When you spend almost a crore on a truck, you would expect the manufacturer to sort out the spare supply chain and all R&D testing. All this should be the least of my worries.

I would imagine that every engine being developed is tested to its limits before landing under the hood of a vehicle.

[fiat_tarun]

Came across this thread today and what a great read it has been.

By virtue of me being in the component industry and selling heavy duty truck transmissions to OEM's, I learnt a lot about the Indian CV industry. Our biggest challenge from being a supplier to this industry has been the demand cyclicity this segment witnesses, which is a nightmare for the supply chain back-end. Managing sudden drops and peaks in demand resulted in a constant to & fro with our customers (CV OEM's) and we could see how difficult it is to plan for them too.

For instance, since most truck buyers are fleet owners, for their big orders of ~100+ trucks, they would be talking to all OEM's for the best deal. In order to be ready to deliver this order, all the OEM's would plan this order in their production. Eventually only one would win and all the others are stuck with huge inventory !

Overloading is so rampant that it was the norm, more so for Tippers which operate within a site and not on the roads.I have come across 25T tippers easily carrying 40T+ loads in mines and hauling these load up inclines. I was told the vehicles last only around 2-3 years with this kind of usage. With overloading now being checked atleast on highways, we have OEM's launching rated load models as well which won't take overloading, so the customer has more choice (lower price for the rated load model).

[harikrishna.te]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

When you spend almost a crore on a truck, you would expect the manufacturer to sort out the spare supply chain and all R&D testing. All this should be the least of my worries.

I would imagine that every engine being developed is tested to its limits before landing under the hood of a vehicle.

While that is the expectation of the customer, it is easier said than done. For a new manufacturer entering the country, network expansion will take at least 5 years (for a skeletal network). They also have to take steps to set up warehouses for spare parts to check proliferation of spurious parts.

My question was about the experience your friend had with regard to spare parts availability, not about the R&D or engine testing done by the manufacturer. The engine itself may not fail but a lot of ancillary parts like gaskets and other wear-prone items may not withstand the wide range of operating conditions that the truck/bus is subjected to.

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

For instance, since most truck buyers are fleet owners, for their big orders of ~100+ trucks, they would be talking to all OEM's for the best deal. In order to be ready to deliver this order, all the OEM's would plan this order in their production. Eventually only one would win and all the others are stuck with huge inventory !

That's a very good point! With more focus and awareness on working capital and inventory reduction, OEMs either ask suppliers to hold inventory and/or invoice chassis/fully built vehicles to the dealers to make sure they don't carry any inventory themselves.

But I guess that's one of the cardinal rules of business - don't hold inventory, push for extra credit from your supplier, don't encourage credit payments from customers!

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by harikrishna.te

The engine itself may not fail but a lot of ancillary parts like gaskets and other wear-prone items may not withstand the wide range of operating conditions that the truck/bus is subjected to.

I disagree. A commercial vehicle is designed ground up to withstand all kinds of abuse. Be it extreme weather conditions, mixed road conditions, etc. Things will fail and may require replacement over time. The usual wear and tear components will require replacement too. The idea for the manufacturer is to design their components with longevity.

I am not sure what aspect about my friends experience you are referring to. That was a sales pitch and advice from the sales agent that the truck (Volvo in that case) should stay on the road and not idle away as a means of better recovery of investment. A Volvo costs a lot more than your average Leyland and TATA truck. You can't be spending so much and let the truck idle away was the point the sales agent was trying to drive. I thought that was good advice which you seldom hear.

How long the manufacturer takes to set up shop, sales and support isn't really our problem. If they are here to make money, succeed in their business, they better get their operations sorted as soon as their trucks are rolling on the road.

[harikrishna.te]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I disagree. A commercial vehicle is designed ground up to withstand all kinds of abuse. Be it extreme weather conditions, mixed road conditions, etc. Things will fail and may require replacement over time. The usual wear and tear components will require replacement too. The idea for the manufacturer is to design their components with longevity.

Again, your point is absolutely right in an ideal sense. I am just talking about it from the OEM's perspective, where the ground reality is quite different. If things worked according to design, there wouldn't be any warranty claims.

It is slightly different from the passenger car industry because the CV goes through a lot more, in terms of weather and abuse. There is no silver bullet when an OEM carries out reliability studies and designs the product.

A Volvo costs a lot more than your average Leyland and TATA truck. You can't be spending so much and let the truck idle away was the point the sales agent was trying to drive. I thought that was good advice which you seldom hear.

That's quite true. My question was about your friend's experience, assuming he went through with the purchase and ran the vehicles continuously. In that case, what would have been his opinion on durability and spares availability, because Volvo doesn't have the kind of network that the top two have. (Volvo of course can leverage its partnership with Eicher Motors for network)

How long the manufacturer takes to set up shop, sales and support isn't really our problem. If they are here to make money, succeed in their business, they better get their operations sorted as soon as their trucks are rolling on the road.

Again, from a customer's perspective, this is quite right. But most of what I have talked about in this thread is from the OEM's perspective.

So when we talk about niggling issues in the CV industry, especially for an OEM, this is a big one.

You can't sell long haul trucks if you don't have a network. You can't establish a network along all the major routes quickly. You can't wait for the network to be established so that you can release your product - the incumbents will eat you up.

While it is correct (and maybe easy) to say that the manufacturers have to get things in line quickly, it is much harder to do so because of the inherent risks in establishing a dealership without due diligence. There's the issue of permits, technical training to the mechanics, warehousing and spare parts logistics and more.

To give you an example, the top two together have over 2500 touchpoints across India (2016 figures, maybe even more now). They have built this over 70-80 years and while the expansion rate today is much better, it is still a huge exercise to compete with them on network access.