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Old 19th November 2018, 22:58   #61
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

Price comparison between SAM systems:

Almaz Antey S-400: $500 million
Raytheon Patriot: $1 billion
Lockheed Martin THAAD: $3 billion

Cost mentioned is for missile system battery that includes command center, truck mounted radar, missile launcher & missiles.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/19/russ...us-models.html

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Compared with U.S. systems, the Russian-made S-400 is capable of engaging a wider array of targets, at longer ranges and against multiple threats simultaneously. In terms of capability, one source noted that while there is no perfect weapon, the S-400 eclipses even THAAD, America's missile defense crown jewel.

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Old 22nd December 2018, 19:58   #62
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GSLV-F11 / GSAT-7A Mission

GSLV-F11 successfully launched GSAT-7A, ISRO’s 39th communication satellite, on December 19, 2018 at 1610 hrs (IST) from the Second Launch Pad (SLP) of Satish Dhawan Space Centre SHAR, Sriharikota.

The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6-20.jpg[i]
Beautiful shot of the GSLV-F11 on the launch pad

GSLV-F11 is the 13th flight of India’s Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV). GSLV – F11 is ISRO’s fourth generation launch vehicle with three stages. The four liquid strap-ons and a solid rocket motor at the core form the first stage. The second stage of the vehicle is equipped with high thrust engine using liquid fuel. The Cryogenic Upper Stage forms the third and final stage of the vehicle.

GSAT-7A, the payload, is a 2250 kg geostationary satellite. It will provide a secure mode of communication and will be for the exclusive use of the IAF. The satellite will give a boost to the strategic communication and networking capabilities of the Indian Air Force.


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10, 9, 8....2,1, Lift-Off

The GSLV-F11 has a first stage rocket motor delivering ~500,000 kg-force supported by four strap on boosters that you can see in the photo at the base of the rocket. Those four together deliver ~ 300,000 kg-force. These are followed by smaller rocket motors for the second and third stages. All of this indigenously developed thanks to sanctions we lived with first due to the Cold War and then due to Pokhran-II.

Just to put a context - the GE90 is the largest engine in routine commercial use (on Boeing 777 for example) and it delivers ~52,000kg-force.

The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6-24.jpg
As a child, in the late 60s and early 70s when I read about the American Apollo missions or the Russian Luna & Soyuz missions it seemed well nigh impossible that we Indians would ever have rockets and such complex looking launch pads not to mention the gargantuan organization and interface needed for a rocket design-build-launch project. At that time we did not even design our own cars! And here we are less than 50 years later with GSLV, Mangalyaan, Agni -III and more.

All photos copyright ISRO, GoI
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Old 22nd December 2018, 21:29   #63
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
GSLV-F11 / GSAT-7A Mission

GSLV-F11 successfully launched GSAT-7A, ISRO’s 39th communication satellite, on December 19, 2018 at 1610 hrs (IST) from the Second Launch Pad (SLP) of Satish Dhawan Space Centre SHAR, Sriharikota.

[/i]
Sir does GSLV have Indian made cryogenic engine?

Also can you throw light on Devil Missile and valiant missile project of 1970s which formed the basis for development of Agni and prithivi.

Last edited by FrozeninTime : 22nd December 2018 at 21:31. Reason: Removing excess of quoted portion and some house keeping
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Old 23rd December 2018, 09:20   #64
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Also can you throw light on Devil Missile and valiant missile project of 1970s which formed the basis for development of Agni and Prithivi.
Caveat: My knowledge of these two early projects is limited

Project Devil & Project Valiant were two early liquid-fueled missile projects pursued by India outside the aegis of ISRO. The goal of Project Devil was to produce a short/medium-range surface-to-air missile by reverse engineering the Soviet SA-2 {NATO name Guideline} which was then entering service with the IAF. And for Project Valiant it was to develop a ballistic missile with a range of 1500 kms. Both were super ambitious in scope given where our know-how was in 1972. Both were run under the Defense Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), a subset of DRDO. In those days and in case of DRDO even today there was a tendency amongst our scientists to claim they could develop XYZ when in reality we were not even ready for xyz and I dare say some of these projects took place at the expense of the Armed Forces and were run as fiefdoms of scientist-bureaucrats. Pardon the rant. The 1971 war also had something to do with the launch of these two. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi funded them through a secret fund without the knowledge of her Cabinet which is not a bad thing. Project Devil did turn out some learnings on liquid fuel rocket engines and the metallurgy behind them and, I think, got test bed prototypes functioning. In 1975 the projects were transferred to ISRO to help ensure co-ordinated efforts and results for our then nascent missile & rocket programmes. ISRO used these learnings from Project Devil on its long road to Prithvi 12 to 15 years later. Project Valiant did not produce any test bed or learning. Project Devil was led by one VS Narayanan who quit when it was moved under ISRO.

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Sir does GSLV have Indian made cryogenic engine?
The third stage of the present generation of GSLV {called GSLV Mark II} is propelled by the Indian CE-7.5 cryogenic rocket engine. It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. The engine has a default thrust of 7700 kg-force. The countries which have developed their own cyrogenic engines are – USA, Russia, China, France, Japan & India. In 1991 we signed an agreement with the USSR for sale of their cyrogenic engines. But after the USSR broke up USA forced them into not selling to us under the guise of the MTCR {Missile Technology Control Regime}. So, we went the long route on our own. We have a lot to be grateful to USA and its 'are you on my side or not' view of geo-politics that each of their sanctions led us to develop our own know-how not only in missiles and rockets but also in nuclear submarines. In adversity lies the opportunity to grow stronger.

ISRO's pamphlet on the launch on 19th December 2018
The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6-gsat7amissionataglance.jpg
Photo Source; ISRO, GoI

Last edited by V.Narayan : 23rd December 2018 at 09:23.
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Old 24th December 2018, 11:54   #65
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
But after the USSR broke up USA forced them into not selling to us under the guise of the MTCR {Missile Technology Control Regime}. So, we went the long route on our own.
The route we took was long and arduous indeed. Reminds me of the inspirational story shared by my mentor a decade ago. When MTCR was invoked and we were deprived of the cryogenics engine, Indian space mission suddenly found itself in a void. Back then, we were probably good 30-40 years behind USA in this technology. Then, Indian scientists and bureaucrats went all around the world connecting with young and bright engineers who were working with big industries and earning handsomely as well. Many of these, my mentor included, left their high-paying and comfortable careers abroad and came back to India driven by patriotism and took the challenge of developing cryogenic technology in-house. Research labs and institutions nationwide like DRDO, AERB, BARC, RRCAT as well as IISc and IITs pooled in the efforts.

However, this story doesn't really have a happy ending. Around 2000/01 (sorry, can't remember the exact dates), the sanctions were revoked and we were able to source few cryogenic engines from Russia. As expected, the work on indigenous cryogenic engine which was progressing on war-footing till then lost steam since immediate requirements were met. Luckily, it wasn't shelved altogether and things kept moving, albeit slowly till we were able to successfully develop a cryogenic engine.

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We have a lot to be grateful to USA and its 'are you on my side or not' view of geo-politics that each of their sanctions led us to develop our own know-how not only in missiles and rockets but also in nuclear submarines. In adversity lies the opportunity to grow stronger.
Without the jolt from USA, the cryogenic engines and hence all these missiles and rockets would probably have been another decade away. The turmoil did bring many bright minds back and helped take the Indian space program forward.
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Old 25th December 2018, 01:22   #66
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

What ISRO has achieved so far is commendable indeed given that its budget is a fraction of other space agencies. The next goal should be to develop the GSLV further so that is can lift heavier payloads into orbit.This would eliminate the dependency on companies like Ariane for the launch of heavier satellites.

Sadly the same cannot be said of the some of the other Govt organizations like HAL for e.g. They have had sufficient time and budget till now but haven't been able to produce the desired results.
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Old 25th December 2018, 18:12   #67
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
...As a child, in the late 60s and early 70s when I read about the American Apollo missions or the Russian Luna & Soyuz missions it seemed well nigh impossible that we Indians would ever have rockets and such complex looking launch pads not to mention the gargantuan organization and interface needed for a rocket design-build-launch project. At that time we did not even design our own cars! And here we are less than 50 years later with GSLV, Mangalyaan, Agni -III and more....
Is there any launch-site/space-related-organization in India that is open for visitors, say, with a conducted tour, etc? I would so like to take my kids to it.

(I believe NASA has something similar)
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Old 25th December 2018, 20:10   #68
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Is there any launch-site/space-related-organization in India that is open for visitors, say, with a conducted tour, etc? I would so like to take my kids to it.
That actually would be a great way to get more kids excited on related subjects.

I know many make 'private' visits to Sriharikota. The way that works is this - if you know anyone working there (preferably a sr. scientist) you can request them to arrange for a pass to get inside. There are two main gates in this area that have very heavy security few months leading to a launch but fairly alright other times of the year.

You may want to pick one of the those 'other time of the year.'

Once inside, you can stay either at their place or at a mega-subsidized guest houses on the inside. The launchpad and other interesting things are beyond a second gate for which you'd need additional security clearance and your friend there can arrange that with just a few phone calls. This is where it helps to know sr. scientists there. You then get a private visit with good explanation of all the launchpad facilities etc.
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Old 30th December 2018, 09:24   #69
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

India Successfully Test-Fires Nuclear-Capable Agni-IV Missile

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...issile-1966895


India, on Sunday December 23rd, 2018, successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable long-range ballistic missile Agni-IV, with a strike range of 4,000 km, as part of a user trial by the Army. The strategic surface-to-surface Agni-IV missile was flight tested from Dr Abdul Kalam Island, earlier known as Wheeler Island.

Defence sources described the trial as a "complete success". They said all mission objectives were met during the test-fire. All radars, tracking systems and range stations tracked and monitored the flight performance of the missile, which was launched with support of a mobile launcher. Radars and electro-optical systems had been positioned along the coast of Odisha for tracking and monitoring all parameters of the missile, the sources said, adding two naval ships were anchored near the target area to witness the final event.

This was the 7th trial of Agni-IV missile. The last trial conducted by the strategic force command (SFC) of the Indian Army from the same base on January 2, 2018 was successful.

The indigenously developed sophisticated Agni-IV having 4,000 km strike range is a two-stage missile. It is 20-meter long with a weight of 17 tonnes, they said. Compared to the similarly ranged Agni-III the Agni-IV is lighter and has more advanced navigation and guidance systems. In its trajectory the Agni-IV reaches an altitude of 900 kms. It can be armed with a nuclear warhead. Agni-IV like most of Indian ballistic missiles is operated from a mobile Transporter-Erector-Launcher vehicle.

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Agni-IV on its Transporter-Erector-Launcher. India has consciously opted not to go in for fixed base silos to improve its deterrent competence.This gives the Indian strategic forces flexibility in where to base and launch from. The mobility also affords some protection from enemy strike.
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Old 30th December 2018, 11:01   #70
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

I have been seeing so many test fires of Agni missiles. I am not sure if so much of testing is required for its development or its just for showing they are doing something (both for domestic as well as other couple of neighbouring countries). The ranges havent improved and not sure about the weapon carrying improvements. Yes, there will be some improvements but not that big.

Looking at various indigenous defense developments, it seems like we lack good leaders. There is no dearth of talent and it might have been wasted. Nothing else could explain the success of ISRO compared to other projects. On a lighter note, maybe the lack of women in these other projects compared to ISRO projects

Last edited by srishiva : 30th December 2018 at 11:02.
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Old 31st December 2018, 11:55   #71
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I have been seeing so many test fires of Agni missiles. I am not sure if so much of testing is required for its development or its just for showing they are doing something (both for domestic as well as other couple of neighbouring countries). The ranges havent improved and not sure about the weapon carrying improvements. Yes, there will be some improvements but not that big.
I do not know if your post is a question or a comment or a criticism.

From what little I know:-

1. Missiles, more so, ballistic missiles require intensive testing - both simulated and in the real world - in order to perfect them. Same for aircraft. Just like most military aircraft are preceded by a few or several prototypes and pre-production pieces so are missiles. I could elaborate on the complexities a ballistic missile must deal with but I assume you know that.

2. The Agni missile family is not one missile type being tested over and over again to keep ISRO employed. The name Agni has been given to India's family of land based ballistic missiles with Agni-I, Agni-II, Agni-IV playing different roles and being more advanced and longer ranged than the predecessor. It also reflects ISRO's eminently sensible policy of going step by step first the 150 km range Prithvi, then the 700 km range Agni-I, followed by the 2000 km range Agni-II and now the 4000 km range Agni-IV. With each the electronics, rocket motors and re-entry vehicle have been improved. While evolutionary to an extent each of these is really a new missile on both the inside and in terms of its power plant and navigation.

3. The development of each missile requires several tests at first an ISRO level and then by the actual user to help the user develop its operating protocol.

I hope this helps address your concern.
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Old 31st December 2018, 12:15   #72
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

My geo-political observations with respect to missiles:

1) Iran and North Korea have an indigenous missile program, and they frequently test their missiles.

2) India has a strong ballistic missiles arsenal, but has zero success with respect to cruise missiles. This implies that ISRO and/or ISRO scientists are closely involved in ballistic missile development. Remember that ballistic missiles and space launch vehicles (PSLV/GSLV) use similar principles. Rocket science as they call it.

3) Pakistan has no space program to talk about, but they somehow (Hint: China) managed to develop an impressive ballistic and cruise missile arsenal. Pakistani missiles are so good that all they need is one test (accompanied by insane PR activity) and they are straight away inducted into the arsenal
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Old 31st December 2018, 12:36   #73
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I am not sure if so much of testing is required for its development or its just for showing they are doing something (both for domestic as well as other couple of neighboring countries).
Am not well-informed on this subject at all, but I guess it's both.

Extensive testing will certainly be required for something as complicated as a missile system I'm sure.

And strategically, I guess a nuclear missile is mainly meant as deterrent. I still hope no sane country will be looking to actually use one. So extensive testing will add to the 'deterrent' factor.
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Old 31st December 2018, 13:11   #74
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3) Pakistan has no space program to talk about, but they somehow (Hint: China) managed to develop an impressive ballistic and cruise missile arsenal. Pakistani missiles are so good that all they need is one test (accompanied by insane PR activity) and they are straight away inducted into the arsenal
Our western neighbor has been a beneficiary of China and North Korea. They get semi-knocked down kits, paint a new name and presto!! Nevertheless it poses a threat to us given their strategy of spreading instability and hatred to their east and to their north west. The paeans written on their missiles on Wikipedia at least sound rather tall at times.
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Old 31st December 2018, 13:50   #75
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
I do not know if your post is a question or a comment or a criticism.

From what little I know:-
........
2. The Agni missile family is not one missile type being tested over and over again to keep ISRO employed. The name Agni has been given to India's family of land based ballistic missiles with Agni-I, Agni-II, Agni-IV playing different roles and being more advanced and longer ranged than the predecessor. It also reflects ISRO's eminently sensible policy of going step by step first the 150 km range Prithvi, then the 700 km range Agni-I, followed by the 2000 km range Agni-II and now the 4000 km range Agni-IV. With each the electronics, rocket motors and re-entry vehicle have been improved. While evolutionary to an extent each of these is really a new missile on both the inside and in terms of its power plant and navigation.

3. The development of each missile requires several tests at first an ISRO level and then by the actual user to help the user develop its operating protocol.

I hope this helps address your concern.

Sir, I have followed your posts for some time now. And I admire your deep knowledge in this domain. However, you seem to have used ISRO in your above post. Is this intentional? I thought the missile programme (Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme aka IGMDP) was developed by DRDO not ISRO.
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