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Old 23rd October 2018, 15:19   #76
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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The government must, and as a society we must too, be compassionate towards those who have been scarred for life by this tragedy.

If the amount declared is going to right people then i do not have any issues but half of the compensation amount would be taken away by our so called officers and another 20-25% by the middle men who will help the victims prepare the umpteen number of documents that they would need to get this compensation. At the end, the person who lost his family member will receive 25% of the amount

Why cant the compensation be taken out from the organizers account as he is the one who organized this or let this be collected from various other departments (Police, Railways) as a penalty for not doing their job and give it to the victims.

I know this is not going to be happen irrespective of what we say and think here. At the end of the day everything boils down to the tax payer's money and how much more they can be robbed legally.

For sure we are a developing country!
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Old 23rd October 2018, 16:09   #77
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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Why cant the compensation be taken out from the organizers account as he is the one who organized this or let this be collected from various other departments (Police, Railways) as a penalty for not doing their job and give it to the victims.
If they were responsible. Many of us think they were not.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 18:06   #78
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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If they were responsible. Many of us think they were not.
Harvesting the organs of the deceased and directing those proceeds towards family/survivor aid/rehabilitation is the only thing that makes sense. Comparatively intact cadavers,would be eagerly paid for by medical schools.

That is,of course,after deducting all expenses incurred by the government, to have this mess cleared up.

Absolutely no one else is to blame here, except also the pandering government,for rewarding asinine behaviour.

Last edited by thorque : 23rd October 2018 at 18:12. Reason: Afterthought
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Old 23rd October 2018, 20:11   #79
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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I think it's an extreme reaction to say no compensation should be paid to the kin of the deceased or injured.

I don't even know if legally this is compensation or aid or whatever. However we must keep in mind the families which have been devastated by this tragedy must be helped to overcome this period and sustain themselves for at least as long as it takes to set up alternative means of livelihood.

And making sure that at least their financial resources are not strained or drained certainly is the job of the government.

Let's not forget it's a massive tragedy before we start pointing fingers and laying blame and handing out punishments.
In cases of natural disaster, say a flood or earthquake, I agree compensation is a good idea. It lets people rebuild their lives when acts of god have taken everything away. However, in cases that are self-inflicted, why.

Let me ask a question. Say a 30 year old guy gets drunk and kills himself by riding without a helmet and crashing. Or say another 30 to 40 year old working a normal 9 to 5 job has a heart attack and dies. Would you offer them compensation. If the answer is yes, then essentially we would need to offer compensation to everybody who dies. If not, why the train victim and not the bike victim or the heart attack victim.

As far as I am concerned, paying them out of the kindness of our hearts is something we can do on humanitarian grounds, but should not be a government responsibility. Why should the government be responsible for people who are stupid enough to put themselves in harms way, especially when they have seen trains running through on that track earlier.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 20:29   #80
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

Why would anyone be surprised at the general behavior of us Indians when it comes to civic sense, etiquette, respect for others, taking safety precautions etc.

There has been a video doing rounds on facebook and someone's uploaded it to youtube recently, I think it should explain why such accidents shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody.



Uneducated and/or Unaware folks are found aplenty in our country and it is usually a matter of time before someone's luck runs out, case in point, idiots standing on the railway track more interested in a burning effigy than their own safety.

Some may call me paranoid but I totally avoid being part of a crowd anywhere, not just in India but outside also. If I sense a crowd building up I try and get away from that place, wherever in the world it may be.

Specifically in India though, I know how sincere the organizers or law keepers are when it comes to following rules & regulations so its better to miss out on such celebrations than be part of the headline next day.


I'm looking for an industrial space in Noida for my factory and after having seen 50+ properties I must tell you that only 1 of all these had a proper fire exit built. When I had given this condition to the dealers they said I must be crazy giving such high importance to a second fire exit and if I stick to this demand I may as well give up finding a decent property.

Safety is rarely a concern for us countrymen and if something happens, it usually god's will and no amount of precautions would've saved us anyways.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 21:11   #81
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

And another thing, why are people asking for Sidhu's wife to resign. Yes, she was a chief guest at an event, and was there when the people were run over. So what.

It is not like she put those people onto the tracks and is not responsible in any way.

The media and politicians in this country love indulging in the blame game and asking people to resign because they are the opposition party is great for hopefully getting you elected or getting TRP's
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Old 24th October 2018, 08:02   #82
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

The usual result of incidents like this: blame game.

Whatever the case, I think there should be no obstruction on train tracks unless there is a dangerous situation for the train to pass- flood, damaged rails, terrorists/naxals etc. People have no business to be standing on rails in the first case, but even if they were- what were they doing? I don't think a train would pass by without me noticing it- it is big & imposing and makes a lot of noise.

I do feel sorry for the loss of lives, but I think the government (or IR) should put a case on the organizer to pay compensation.
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Old 24th October 2018, 10:15   #83
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

This is an appallingly bad and needless loss of life. While we can be harsh and say that it was only people's fault (and not the system as a whole), nothing can take away from the fact that lives of families have been destroyed. We do not have social welfare in India. Imagine the plight of a family whose sole bread earner has died and these are marginal families to start with, with barely enough means to get by and survive. Now coming back to the question of liability

People - Ofcourse they are liable but remember it was not just one individual, in which case the liability is on the individual and can be proven easily, but a crowd at a publically hosted event which should come with some assumptions. What I am trying to say is that if there is a public event at a street, people do not expect a car or a truck to run them over at full speed, which brings me to the other parties in this case - the organisers/the government/the system

The Organisers/Government/The System - Ideally there should be a set protocol for the clearances that should be required before any public event is given a go ahead depending on a number of factors such as the size of venue, type of event, number of people expected and location which in turn should drive the threat to the life of those attending etc etc. I assume that we do not have such a system in place but imagine if there was.

Size of the venue and number of people would have made sure that we had the minimum number of personnel deployed to control the crowd and a minimum number of ambulances in case anything untoward happened

Type of event - Fireworks display which would have been an input to the threat perception framework and therefore the related preparations.

Location of the event would have easily identified that there is a railway track nearby and that there may be people on the track. In this case railway should have been informed beforehand and they could have reduced the speed of the trains passing that crossing or taken other steps.

This is just a hypothetical example of what if there was a system but its not too far fetched either.

Without a system in place which determines liability, it will always end up as an argument between two sides, each one blaming the other for liability. The same rot lies everywhere else like for example traffic - a T junction with a car coming from your right while you take a left on the road. Who determines who should stop and give way? If there was a "Give Way" sign on the junction for the perpendicular road, the driver should give right to the car coming from the right. If he carries on without stopping he is liable and his insurance company is liable to damage repair on both the vehicles. There is no argument whether the other driver was coming at speed or that driver taking the left should have stopped.

If we really want to take anything out of this tragedy, it should be that we should have a robust system and we should demand the same from the government. In absence we are just waiting for another tragedy to happen.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 24th October 2018 at 10:18.
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Old 24th October 2018, 11:45   #84
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

There's an old and slightly illogical joke that comes to mind. Minus the wit, the moral of the story speaks volumes about what's involved in driving a train.

A man was educated, trained well and finally when fully qualified to do so, was deployed by the Railways as a train driver. However, a train driven by him suffered a derailment pretty soon. There was an enquiry over the accident.

The driver explained - I spotted a man on the track. I remember a lesson from my training - if we spot a man on the track, we're supposed to run over the man rather than endanger the lives of our passengers on-board by braking hard suddenly. However, the man on the track whom I'd spotted ran off the track. So I took the train off the track in order to run him over, just as I was taught...

Bad joke aside - I don't know if people have taken into consideration what could've happened to the hapless passengers of the train if struck by stones thrown by the irate mob on the spot. A good throw would see a stone clocking 80-100 kmph. If the train was doing 80 Kmph, you get an impact velocity of ~ 160 Kmph. Need I describe what happens to skin, flesh and bones when stones hit with such horrific momentums? For whose lives is a train driver responsible for?

I am saddened to see leading media houses even publishing articles that raise questions over whether the train driver is lying about what happened. It's an open and shut case when it comes to assigning fault for the tragedy - and the spotlight shouldn't be upon the driver at all.
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Old 24th October 2018, 12:37   #85
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

Got this on WhatsApp in which the Sadguru simplifies a seemingly complex problem:



That applies to this tragedy perfectly.
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Old 24th October 2018, 14:08   #86
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Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
More than the organisers, isn't it the individual's responsibility? To be aware of the surroundings? But as usual, personal safety is a grossly neglected aspect in our daily lives
Did anyone notice how people didn't leave their cell phones even when the train was passing them by, even then, they'd rather be recording / filming on their phone, than take a few steps back and sort of absorb what they just saw?

My opinion is that people today, pedestrians, e-rickshaw pullers (I've had way too many episodes with them not driving with the headlight on and constantly using their mobile phones while driving), lorry drivers, three-wheelers have taken everything for granted and they don't mind driving on the wrong side of the road, be it highway, underpass or even a flyover.

I think the bigger problem is that people have put their safety in the hands of other people and they want others to look for them, rather than the other way around,
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Old 24th October 2018, 14:27   #87
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

Well, I thought, who needs a guru to settle this?

But it seems they do, better they choose this one! I wish people will listen.

Thanks for the video. Good lesson for us all. Even touching on parenting, which is where it all starts
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Old 24th October 2018, 15:10   #88
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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People - Ofcourse they are liable but remember it was not just one individual, in which case the liability is on the individual and can be proven easily, but a crowd at a publically hosted event which should come with some assumptions. What I am trying to say is that if there is a public event at a street, people do not expect a car or a truck to run them over at full speed, which brings me to the other parties in this case - the organisers/the government/the system
Thanks for your viewpoint. I agree that one assumes that a public gathering is occurring in a safe space.

I would - however - still say that ensuring we don't put ourselves in a dangerous position is our responsibility. There may be a point in the future when our country's systems and processes are elevated to the level of a first-world country, where we can take certain things for granted (e.g. that an under construction area will be properly cordoned off, or that one can cross a one-way street by checking for oncoming traffic on only one side). That day is not today.

I definitely agree that we should continue to push for and work towards ensuring that organizers and the authorities keep safety in mind when organizing anything - especially so when it involves the common public. Until that happy day arrives, we should take care of our safety, and that of our loved ones.

There's a popular saying: "There's safety in numbers". However, that hypothesis falls apart when it is the crowd itself that is lethal.

India seems to love its mobs - be it a lynch mob, or a mob celebrating a function. The unfortunate thing about a mob is that herd mentality sets in.

On a different day, assume we were to ask any individual who attended that function to go alone and stand on the tracks to - say - look at a plane. Would they go and plant themselves in the middle of the tracks, as requested, or would they take that prudent step to either side?

However, on that fateful day, different people would have seen others standing on the tracks oblivious to the danger, assumed it was safe to do so, and did the same. As the numbers built up, this dangerous behaviour was parroted around, despite no one assuring the public that it was safe to do so (I'm not absolving anyone of blame by saying this, just pointing out the need for personal accountability). Moreover, these individuals were local to the area, and would be aware of the train timings.

Another example - on New Year's Eve, the traffic police shut down traffic on Bangalore's popular Brigade Road, so that the entire road can be used by revellers on foot. When I cross that road on such a day, I still shoulder check both sides, because I do not - and cannot - trust that there is no oncoming vehicle. It's follows on from this that I have such low confidence in safety in public spaces that I prefer to avoid crowded venues like this, when I know the crowds will be heavy.

A final example - It is the same "safety in numbers" behaviour that I see in S. India during specific occasions when pilgrims walk to holy places. Suddenly they assume that because they are in a large group, they are safe and can occupy part of a lane on a highway. That will not matter a whit to the out of control car or truck that is careening towards them due to a blown tyre.

"There's safety in numbers" does not give one a cloak of invulnerability, it only increases the possibility that there are enough warm bodies between oneself and a threat. Whether one decides to play the odds with that possibility is a personal choice.
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Old 24th October 2018, 15:46   #89
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm unwilling to go back to the early news items here, but I recall that the organisers were calling for people to leave the railway track and come to the ground. I don't know what more they could do. They can't force people out of danger: they are not responsible for those people on the tracks.
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Old 24th October 2018, 16:38   #90
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Re: Horrific Amritsar train accident - Over 60 dead

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I recall that the organisers were calling for people to leave the railway track and come to the ground. I don't know what more they could do. They can't force people out of danger: they are not responsible for those people on the tracks.
I see these as the only reactionary measures that could have been done, along with my speculation why it wasn't carried out:
  • The organizers could have made an announcement threatening to call off the programme immediately if people didn't move away from the tracks. The counterpoint is that the organizers might have been concerned with angering a politically-connected dignitary, so fear overruled prudence. Alternatively, they feared a violent reaction from the crowd if such a cancellation were carried out.
  • The police could have done likewise, as trespass is a law and order situation. Again, the fear of angering a dignitary might have held them back from doing this (or they might have been coerced to not do so by the organizers).

Proactive measures (such as fencing off the space between the ground and the tracks, informing the railways so they could run at a slower speed through the area) could have been done if guidelines exist for such a matter.

Again, this is not to detract from the 'personal responsibility' point that I fervently cling to.

The interesting thing is, I'm sure if we dig around, we will probably find some requirement from the railways that any grounds/public gathering spaces be segregated from railway lines; with a copy marked to all district administrations.

Then again, we are phenomenal at creating new rules, and abysmal at enforcing them.

Last edited by arunphilip : 24th October 2018 at 16:39.
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