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Old 25th October 2018, 16:27   #16
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

This is a splendid development for the railways to go ahead. Except by the concept, this is hardly similar to the EMUs or MEMUs that have been produced earlier. The traction system is completely underslung, all the bogies are driven whereas in the EMU only the power cars were driven, disc brakes, and a huge improvement in the interior fittings including the restrooms and vestibule area. I am not sure about the overall power rating of this rake, but it should be pretty well powered for the kind of speed it is rated to.

Compared to railways in foreign countries, the locos are always underpowered for the kind of rakes they need to handle. This leads to slower average speeds for even express trains. A typical six coach train in Germany is coupled with a loco with a power rating upwards of 5000HP whereas in India the same power is used to haul 18+ rakes. This will improve average speeds and also clear sections faster, which will increase capacity of the existing network.

But wait, we have people who think that trains should slow down so that people can enjoy a show uninterrupted :Frustrated
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Old 25th October 2018, 17:00   #17
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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Originally Posted by kovilkalai View Post
Actually, this is one reason where multiple driven wheels will have a big advantage. Powered loco + 24 unpowered coaches can't climb well. This is one of the reasons why you see banker locos in the Western Ghats. However, the Chennai - Bangalore gradient isn't a sufficient deterrent for high speeds. There aren't even bankers used on this section.

In any case, Train 18 seems to make more sense in passenger trains or Express trains with frequent stops (Chennai - Bengaluru express for instance).
The reason we have bankers (or brakes for freighters) on the western ghats (Bhore, Thull and Braganza), between Darakhoh and Ghoradongri (on the Itarsi Nagpur Section), on the Makalidurga and Sakleshpur Ghats in Karnataka is the 1:37 ruling gradient when you ascend or descend these ghats. Hence even with a very high powered locos at the front hauling the trains up tie ghats, the tensile forces on the couplers of the trains will be very high, which may even lead to couplings breaking and we having a runaway. Hence the bankers which would otherwise be reducing the coupling forces whilst providing hauling power. I don't know if people know this, but the Mumbai ghats prevent even the old four wheeler cabooses from being attached to the backs to the freight being pushed up ghats, that's the magnitude of power needed to push up a freight. Hence we have all the new cabooses being manufactured having eight wheels and a stronger body.
The new train 18 will have distributed power which will reduce tensile force on the coupling, hence negating need for bankers in an ideal world. But if this were the case we would have had EMU's going up and down the Bhor and Thull ghats connecting Pune to Karjat and Nasik with Kasara at regular intervals.
Whether or not we have these special permissions for Train 18 to go up and down fir ghats for a Mumbai Pune/Nasik service in the future, its upto the wisdom of the RDSO. But surely, if will operate the lesser gradients like on the BRC RTM Dara pass and SBC MAS line very efficiently vis a vis the WAP-7/5/4 locos hauling the passenger rakes we see today.
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Old 25th October 2018, 20:02   #18
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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Originally Posted by ariesonu View Post
Let me play devil's advocate here:
Another 'beautiful' stone throwing practice target for our anti-social elements.
Another 'beautiful' theft target for train artifacts - Yes, we do have 'COLLECTORS' for them.
Another 'beautiful' practice ground for squatters on western style toilets.

General public takes pride in desecrating these beautiful inventions & then we end up blaming authorities, railways & Govt.
When such incidents happen, Twitter gets abuzz with fact that do we really appreciate & deserve such trains/products.

Regards-Sonu
We need better policing. Why don't the authorities value such assets and try to protect them knowing the tendencies of the general public? What is needed is a group of dedicated policemen for each important train. For example there should be around 10 policemen assigned for this train and they should regularly patrol the compartments. In addition the passengers can be warned about severe consequences for any vandalism and theft. After all the names of the passengers are known along with their seat numbers and they can be held responsible for their areas. A small surcharge to pay for the extra police force can be added to the tickets if needed. After a decade of doing this, people would become more disciplined.
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Old 25th October 2018, 20:13   #19
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
Yes technically it is just an EMU. However there is one big difference. All its equipment is underslung unlike local trains which have dedicated HT compartment (high tension compartment) to house electrical equipment. This gives it an advantage of being completely vestibuled. It is expected to have better performance due to higher number of driven axles.

ICF is not known for building quality products, in fact I always curse the quality of local trains they manufacture. But looking at available pics and videos of train 18, I must say they have done a very good job with the first set.
Correct and correct, but it's a true EMU in that all the wheels are driven unlike local trains with 1 coach in every 3 having power. High speed trains (TGV, ICE, Eurostar) have all "trucks" driven just like this. The biggest gain will be in terms of acceleration. The ability to get to top speed faster is what will shave off time after each stop. The regular Shatabdi has a WAP5 (5000 hp) loco. With the same amount of power and more driven wheels, you can go faster quicker. Top speed will be about the same.

Finally, a loco driven train is super heavy at the loco with lighter coaches. There are restrictions, physically, to what the tracks can manage with a heavy loco barelling down at full speed. This sort of train has better weight distribution, so it could potentially go faster on the same tracks. Maybe 10-20 kmph only, but on a 3-4 hour trip, shaving 30 minutes would be a great achievement.
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Old 25th October 2018, 20:38   #20
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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Originally Posted by carmayogi View Post
Correct and correct, but it's a true EMU in that all the wheels are driven unlike local trains with 1 coach in every 3 having power. High speed trains (TGV, ICE, Eurostar) have all "trucks" driven just like this. The biggest gain will be in terms of acceleration. The ability to get to top speed faster is what will shave off time after each stop.
Correct but a minor correction. 1 in 2 coaches will be powered in train 18, not all coaches.

Source

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The 16-car electric trainset uses distributed traction, as an attempt to move away from locomotive haulage of long-distance trains. Electrically, it is formed from four subsets comprising two powered and two trailer vehicles. Each powered car has four 250 kW three-phase motors, which are fed from a 25 kV 50 Hz transformer on an adjacent trailer car, giving a total continuous rating of 8 MW.
As for time saving, i do not forsee any in the near future on account of just acceleration improvement. It is a possibility only in case of speed increase.
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Old 25th October 2018, 22:30   #21
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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Originally Posted by ariesonu View Post
Let me play devil's advocate here:
Another 'beautiful' stone throwing practice target for our anti-social elements.
Another 'beautiful' theft target for train artifacts - Yes, we do have 'COLLECTORS' for them.
Another 'beautiful' practice ground for squatters on western style toilets.
Agree with you sir but it's not just an Indian problem or philosophy. Try taking a tram/metro/bus in Portugal/Czech/Poland/Estonia and you will observe that our trains lac so much in graffiti. We are so behind our European counterparts in painting our trains

But yeah, nobody is stealing stuff from them or burning them down over there.
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Old 26th October 2018, 02:19   #22
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

This is going to look like a space ship on our rails. Outstanding in house effort.

A couple of things I noticed from many videos and images being circulated is the long gangway or vestibule. The gap between compartments seems more than the old ICF coach design. Curious to know if this will have any safety impact, control or limit telescopic movement.

Wheel mounted brake disc is a good move.

Another issue is the relatively short seat base. Under thigh support is poor. This is a problem in our existing Shatabdi too.

Turns out, not all coaches will have a driven axle. Half the rake length will be driven and other half will be motor less. Still; this configuration will still benefit from fast acceleration. Should be almost EMU like when you give it the beans.
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Old 26th October 2018, 12:50   #23
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
Correct but a minor correction. 1 in 2 coaches will be powered in train 18, not all coaches.

As for time saving, i do not forsee any in the near future on account of just acceleration improvement. It is a possibility only in case of speed increase.
Wow that power rating is in the league of the Deutsche Bahn ICE rakes. That is pretty powerful and I guess has the potential to cross 200kmph if the rest of the train can withstand it. In terms of acceleration, this will be better than an EMU or MEMU since it has a 50:50 ratio of live and dead axles while in the typical MEMU its 25:75 if I am calculating it right with a motor car for every three trailing cars like how it is in Bangalore. Not sure if Mumbai EMUs have more power cars per rake.
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Old 26th October 2018, 15:05   #24
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
In terms of acceleration, this will be better than an EMU or MEMU since it has a 50:50 ratio of live and dead axles while in the typical MEMU its 25:75 if I am calculating it right with a motor car for every three trailing cars like how it is in Bangalore. Not sure if Mumbai EMUs have more power cars per rake.
Yes you are right about MEMU. Mumbai EMUs have 1 power car per 3 coaches so that is a 33:66 ratio. Also the newer 3 phase traction rakes are more powerful, capable of reaching 100 kmph in around 2 minutes. An example:



I expect train 18 to have similar acceleration inspite of more power, as the EMUs are geared for quick acceleration at the expense of top speed while train 18 is designed for higher speeds.

Now Chennai, Kolkata, Delhi networks also have started getting 3 phase AC traction EMU rakes.
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Old 26th October 2018, 16:49   #25
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post

I expect train 18 to have similar acceleration inspite of more power, as the EMUs are geared for quick acceleration at the expense of top speed while train 18 is designed for higher speeds.
I was comparing these specs with the Deutsche Bahn Class 403 rakes. What I missed all the while was that the DB rakes are rated at 11000HP for a rake of 8 coaches only whereas the Train 18 is obviously 18 coaches at 11000HP. Hence, the acceleration would be slightly better than EMU. Since these are mostly 3phase VVF drives, the gear ratio is a lesser concern.

Since I have extensively travelled on DB, the trains cross 80kmph at the end of the platform of most stations unless there are a lot of switches. Also, the trains are combined to form a combined rake of 16 coaches which dish out 22000HP But nonetheless, the Train 18 is a great way forward for the IR and hope that this becomes a standard and not just an experiment.
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Old 26th October 2018, 18:11   #26
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Since I have extensively travelled on DB, the trains cross 80kmph at the end of the platform of most stations unless there are a lot of switches. Also, the trains are combined to form a combined rake of 16 coaches which dish out 22000HP But nonetheless, the Train 18 is a great way forward for the IR and hope that this becomes a standard and not just an experiment.
I think it is very important for us to improve our regular trains rather than worry about bullet trains in the near future. If every passenger train in India was 10% faster, it'd have a bigger effect on the economy and lives of people than a "marquee" train being twice as fast. Train 18 is a great step in that direction.

If one remembers, when the Rajdhani coaches were replaced with the current generation LHB design, the older rakes of the Rajdhani were repurposed into Garib Rath trains. That offered a faster (than mail/express) experience at an economical price. Same should happen with Shatabdi running gear. Replace existing Shatabi with Train 18 and use those rakes for other services like passenger/fast/superfast trains that currently have average speeds of 40 to 60 km/h over their trip.

Incremental improvements are what made Toyota who they are. Japanese philosophy of Kaizen is at the heart of this idea.
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Old 26th October 2018, 19:02   #27
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Exactly, we need more track lines and with less curves. The better acceleration and higher top speed of the new train 18, at best will make the journey faster by some 10min compared to the existing Chennai- Bangalore shatabdi.

Five years ago in Katpadi/Vellore station, the WAP-7 powered double decker train stalled on the main track (blocking trains running behind it) due to some kind of techincal problem, it finally departured after a delay of 90min. But surprisingly the train arrived in Cantonment only 15min behind schedule. I felt double decker train was travelling much faster then it normally was, due to the track being free of any other trains all the way to Bangalore. On that day it was travelling faster then a shatabdi.
There is significant buffer built into the train schedule - very similar to airlines. To your point, travelling faster on multiple clear rural block tends to help make up for delays. Benefits of faster locos, signalling will allow for lesser contingency to be built in and thus faster train.


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Originally Posted by carmayogi View Post
I think it is very important for us to improve our regular trains rather than worry about bullet trains in the near future. If every passenger train in India was 10% faster, it'd have a bigger effect on the economy and lives of people than a "marquee" train being twice as fast. Train 18 is a great step in that direction.

If one remembers, when the Rajdhani coaches were replaced with the current generation LHB design, the older rakes of the Rajdhani were repurposed into Garib Rath trains. That offered a faster (than mail/express) experience at an economical price. Same should happen with Shatabdi running gear. Replace existing Shatabi with Train 18 and use those rakes for other services like passenger/fast/superfast trains that currently have average speeds of 40 to 60 km/h over their trip.

Incremental improvements are what made Toyota who they are. Japanese philosophy of Kaizen is at the heart of this idea.
The Garib Raths are getting replaced by Humsafars now. So the focus on moving to an all LHB premium service is happening.

Personally, I loved the external color scheme of the train set - quite elegant While it's going to be a dirt magnet, it has an elegance similar to some airline liveries. WHat would have made it even better is to have the Indian flag painted on each side of the coaches. The newly built Utkrisht coaches have these and would have added a nice splash of color on the white exterior.
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Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train-utk.jpg  

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Old 27th October 2018, 19:50   #28
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Default Re: Made-In-India engineless train to begin trials

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Originally Posted by mmxylorider View Post

The Garib Raths are getting replaced by Humsafars now. So the focus on moving to an all LHB premium service is happening.
Exactly correct to keep improving, rather than anything else. These projects don't make political victories but they create real and lasting improvements.
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Old 28th October 2018, 08:26   #29
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

I saw the train. No pantograph in sight. Are we switching to the 'third' rail or something.

Of course anti-social louts will be an issue. Even some marginally upmarket trains have been hit. The best solution may be to publicly name shame and display these fools. They are as bad as Kashmir stone pelters.
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Old 29th October 2018, 04:37   #30
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Default re: Vande Bharat Express (Train 18) - Made-In-India Engineless Train

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I saw the train. No pantograph in sight. Are we switching to the 'third' rail or something.
No third rail. Pantograph will be the power feeder. If this will be a 16 coach rake, I expect no less than 4 pantographs on the rake to feed power to the motors.

Considering Bangalore and Kochi Metro rail have not managed to get anyone electrocuted so far (by walking across the tracks), my hope is that some sense prevails among the public.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 29th October 2018 at 04:39.
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