[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

They will be disposed off with the same safety or carelessness as the current around 50 million batteries in cars and another lot in the ~10 million trucks and buses. And of course we forgot about the millions of batteries in inverters all across power hungry states. Why is it that disposal of batteries becomes a concern on T-BHP when a transport for the poor is in question but is rarely brought up with regard to our cars. Up to this point have you ever written about your concern that your car's battery is one day going to contaminate the ground water. It is a real problem no doubt but lets not wear our feudal cloak.

What next - "Why haven't I have ever written about battery cells discarded off watches or pencil cells from electronic gadgets?"
How big is the car battery compared to multiple of these they have in these rickshaws? What is the average replacement life time for a car/truck battery or an inverter battery vis a vis batteries in one of these? They do more discharge charge cycles in a day than your inverter will do in a month or even more. You are making it look like as if I hate the poor when I am really concerned about the fact that battery disposal for these rickshaws is a problem that we seriously need to consider given they have just exploded on to the landscape suddenly. Did I say that I do not care about how the batteries are disposed at all? The same poor that you speak of are going to drink that water because they can't afford the aquaguards and eat vegetables which are sold for cheap grown using the same ground water because they can't afford organic. More than the middle class who still have their life in some order, its the poor who are affected bad by environmental impacts. If you do not believe me, visit any village where there is an affluent releasing factory nearby.

P.S. If you think the poor can afford Rs 10 for the last 1-2 kms of their journey, you are mistaken sir.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

What next .......

Thank you for your outburst. When some number in the range of 100 million batteries are in use in vehicles & inverters to bring up disposability for 1 million being put to use for the poor does ring hollow. We can agree to disagree and move on. There are many grades of poor in our country. A vast number of the urban poor do use these e-ricks, overloaded auto-ricks and buses. Do you know that a typical 25 kms commute one way in a Delhi bus, used by the lower economic half, would cost about Rs 50/- You may want to re-calibrate what Rs 10 buys.?

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for your outburst. When some number in the range of 100 million batteries are in use in vehicles & inverters to bring up disposability for 1 million being put to use for the poor does ring hollow.

e-rickshaws have taken away the livelihood of the manual rickshaw pullers, almost all of which have been replaced by these in Delhi. If defending poor is all you care about, an argument can be made to ban these things altogether. Secondly the battery waste footprint of a car or truck which has an average battery lifespan of anywhere between 3-5 years or for an invertor which is the same if not more is considerably less than these autorickshaws which not only have multiple big batteries but batteries which are used day in and day out and hence would wear out sooner. Before you allude me of being against poor, I will raise the same question if electric cars were to become commonplace. All arguments aside, how is raising a genuine environmental question to a hazard against poor? All it needs is regulation for the battery recycle industry. Is that too much to ask?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We can agree to disagree and move on. There are many grades of poor in our country. A vast number of the urban poor do use these e-ricks, overloaded auto-ricks and buses. Do you know that a typical 25 kms commute one way in a Delhi bus, used by the lower economic half, would cost about Rs 50/- You may want to re-calibrate what Rs 10 buys.?

A correction first - the highest fare on a normal bus is Rs 15 as per this article (https://www.tripsavvy.com/quick-guid...travel-1539231) not Rs 50. Its a question needs vs wants - they cannot walk 25 kms to save money but they can definitely walk the last 1-2 kms to save Rs 10 which is 75% of the highest ticket price they paid to travel in a bus. It looks like you may need some re-calibration too. I come from a typical Delhi middle class family with one working parent and I know the struggles they do through each day to save every tiny bit they can. The urban poor that you talk about are worse off.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/65953120.cms

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

e-rickshaws have taken away the livelihood of the manual rickshaw pullers, almost all of which have been replaced by these in Delhi.

I suspect several switched.

I will raise the same question if electric cars were to become commonplace. All arguments aside, how is raising a genuine environmental question to a hazard against poor? All it needs is regulation for the battery recycle industry.

I do not know the answer and neither do any of us yet. Good question and a very relevant one. But different from the one in your first post. Any way no point dragging the argument. Given the way our Govt works we will first have a big solid waste management problem before solutions come.

A correction first - the highest fare on a normal bus is Rs 15 as per this article not Rs 50.

Only on DTC which runs only a fraction of Delhi-NCR's buses/mini-buses. I don't need to check a web site. I just asked my junior employees.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I suspect several switched.

Actually not. Its a mafia these days with mostly jobless youth from the colonies.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Only on DTC which runs only a fraction of Delhi-NCR's buses/mini-buses. I don't need to check a web site. I just asked my junior employees.

It would be the other way around. DTC and a fraction of others. The central government already made sure that travelling on Metro went out of reach for many of the urban poor. That shows up in the Metro ridership that has fallen since.

[saket77]

I was under a wrong impression that e-rickshaws have lithium battery packs. Thanks for correcting me that its lead acid batteries.

I would not get into disposal of such batteries because still we can exchange our old batteries and get a good price for it. So, it is upto the manufacturers as to how to dispose them, as we all are equally guilty.

But one point to ponder upon is that a typical car's battery, which is much much smaller than the e-cart battery, lasts for 5 years. So, that's one in five years. E-carts have 4 batteries connected in series and of much bigger size. According to this article, they last only 5 months! https://www.downtoearth.org.in/video...in-india-59669

I'm still assuming that they last more than double of that, for 1 year. So, by the time cars dispose off 1 small battery, compare this with an E-cart which would spew out 20 batteries of much bigger sizes. I think that's a bit concerning.

My main grouse remains the same as my initial post.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...ml#post4487314 (11,000 electric rickshaws are sold in India every month!)

Thanks!

[blackasta]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Apart from causing traffic bottlenecks, these are extremely unsafe and in case of an impact, the fate of the occupants is anybody's guess ! If at all these are encouraged, there should be separate zones in every city created where these can ply. These should not be allowed to ply on any and every city road. There should be a separate slow lane to the extreme left of the road , where these should be allowed to ply and violations should be penalised.

The one's which are manufactured abiding by the guidelines set down by GOI (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...1-15-lakh.html (OK Play launches E-Raaja E-Rickshaw at Rs. 1.15 lakh)) are safer than the normal pedal rickshaws IMO.

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

These have proliferated on a large scale, but there is no white paper or Act of Parlaiment which governs their manufacture, safety norms, usage and traffic issues concerning these. The only existing laws if any, are state laws (only in a state or two) and some cities, where the traffic authorities have listed some guidelines for e-rickshaws.

The 16th Amendment of CMVR lays out detailed guidelines on E-Rickshaw

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.or...es,%202014.pdf

Licensing / registration / regulation is state subject and is being enforced accordingly.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

e-rickshaws have taken away the livelihood of the manual rickshaw pullers

I doubt it - in my locality at least, manual rickshaw pullers , unemployed youth, & people from other professions have taken up driving the e rickshaws.

Originally Posted by saket77

E-carts have 4 batteries connected in series and of much bigger size. According to this article, they last only 5 months! https://www.downtoearth.org.in/video...in-india-59669

I'm still assuming that they last more than double of that, for 1 year. So, by the time cars dispose off 1 small battery, compare this with an E-cart which would spew out 20 batteries of much bigger sizes. I think that's a bit concerning.

I seriously doubt people would have taken up driving E-ricks if they were to replace batteries every year. Nonetheless, I shall talk to one owner-driver the next time I take a ride in one and find it out.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by blackasta

T
I seriously doubt people would have taken up driving E-ricks if they were to replace batteries every year. Nonetheless, I shall talk to one owner-driver the next time I take a ride in one and find it out.

You bet! Most of the unemployed youths, mostly belonging to the lower strata of the society have taken up driving e-rickshaws here. This is easy & good money for them. Although, the rated capacity is 4+1, you can always spot them doing 7 or even 8 passengers plus the driver himself. They easily earn at least a 1000 rupees daily this way. So, replacing batteries once a year in not a big deal considering this investment is giving such good returns!


I know of some affluent families who have bought such e-carts and have let them to drivers and are getting a fixed amount every day from them.


Regards,
Saket

[ascension]

Can't comment on the number, but I suspect a no-so-insignificant number of electric rickshaws and golf karts are used in corporate townships and plant premises in off beat locations. I was working in a power plant and the township was in the middle of nowhere; We had a humble e-tuk tuk where a security guard would escort you to your home from the main gate. Similarly, there were several in the plant premises for short distances and Innovas/Buses for large ones. One of the reasons for an accelerated uptake is that companies want to reduce reliance on local goons who provide transport by bullying out scrupulous providers and rampant malpractices like inflating number of kilometers driven etc. Better when you provide the electricity for charging; eliminates one source of cheating entirely.

[PearlJam]

Again, looks like people are focusing on safety, just like so many other innumerable threads, especially in the recent past. While safety is definitely important (as BHPians, we all agree on this anyway), we have already discussed this topic to death (no pun intended), and even more.

All sides have made their points, and any further discussion on safety is futile, pointless, and most likely already discussed, so it doesn't add value to this thread.

One side: Yes, manufacturers are taking us for a ride, yes, the Government is lax, yes, it's a tin can, yes, "I would never buy it", yes, yes, yes,..

Other side: Yes, we are a poor country so safety is not our list of priorities, yes, there are many other unsafe things, yes, yes, yes,..

Atleast in the case of e-rickshaws, could we please focus on other aspects? Thanks!

[wrongturn]

The impact of E-rickshaws is worst then one can imagine, I will try to break it down into points:

1. Usually the people who don't want to do anything (too lazy to do any job) buy an e-rickshaw.

2. No license required to drive these on the road, even with 7+ souls on board. I've even seen a complete deaf driving it, children (who ride them like children) and elderly(who can't even see properly) are a very common sight.

3. No insurance required!!! with all these points in consideration I already feel like we are living in dark ages, where no law prevailed.

4. Effects on the environment has been discussed already.

5. And the worst of the worst is - electricity theft. I have seen a lot of places in my city, where in the dark of the night in some hidden corners, these imbeciles charge there e-rickshaws by stealing electricity directly from the pole. Atleast 15-20 e-rickshaws staked together kept for charging overnight. And, don't forget in the end it's us, the 'common people' who end up paying for that stolen electricity.


I wish we could do something do ban these e(vil)-rickshaws.

[Zappo]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

While safety is definitely important (as BHPians, we all agree on this anyway), we have already discussed this topic to death (no pun intended), and even more.

All sides have made their points, and any further discussion on safety is futile, pointless, and most likely already discussed, so it doesn't add value to this thread.

Thanks you nailed it. We need to have a way to calibrate our responses. The same response that we had when Renault Kwid failed the NCAP can't apply to everything that moves.

Why do we not show the same indignation about bicycles. They are absolutely unsafe if you ask me, and horror of horrors, GOI doesn't even mandate it that all the cyclists across India need to wear a helmet, or for that matter, bicycles should have safety wheels and seat belts. But then jokes aside, we need to see the subject of discussion before we jump in with our boilerplate responses to everything that has wheels.

An eRick merely replaces a pedalled cycle rickshaw. And these cycle rickshaws have been around for donkey's years. The small town India and even many major cities have always had these as a major mode of short commute for a long time now. The eRicks that replace them are far far safer... a flat floor, a safety cage (more often than not), whichever way you look at it. And yet, they are comfortable for the passengers as well as the driver. So it is important that we baseline our comparisons first.

Originally Posted by wrongturn

The impact of E-rickshaws is worst then one can imagine, I will try to break it down into points:


I wish we could do something do ban these e(vil)-rickshaws.

I think you are confusing up two very different things. All the reasons you have sighted here are more of governance issues. Fix what needs to be fixed. Governance impotency can't be the reason to blame the eRicks. It's as lame as the ruling that the entire India needs to bake in the hot summer sun inside a glass greenhouse (aka car) without any refuge to using sunfilms etc. because our law authorities are not able to bring the rape culprits to justice in quick time.

eRicks have their benefits when compared to what they are meant to replace (pedalled rickshaws). Rest of the issues like stealing of electricity, assigning zones where they can ply etc. are something that the local government needs to look into.

[saket77]

Quite agree to the above posts. We cannot weigh all such mode of transports on the NCAP tipping scales. But the basic senses should prevail which is significantly absent in e-rickshaw drivers.

Now, can you imagine that for saving their battery charge, they never turn on the headlamps or use turn signals even at night!

[gauravanekar]

We (the privileged car owners) have to let the market forces (drivers and the passengers) workout the safety vs cost vs convenience equation, no banning calls from us without even using it regularly.
With regards to environmental impact Lead acid and li ion battery exchange/recycling system needs to be defined and regulated through appropriate law. Why distinguish car battery vs erick battery. I don't see erick users calling for car ban for its various drawbacks.

Time costs money, even for the poorest of poor. Let's not deprive their livelihood in the name of safety/convenience. Whether to use or not to use is users choice.

[superbad]

Saw many of these in Delhi, Allahabad & a few other cities. One common characteristics is the maniacal nature with which these are being driven. Drivers think they are driving a two wheeler, & will casually execute sudden left-right manoeuvres, try n squeeze into gaps, come dangerously close to other vehicles etc. Any passenger having ridden these will attest to the experience of having his heart in his mouth. Not to mention the blatant overcharging by the drivers at the slightest hint of the passenger being a tourist.
This thing is good in concept, however is execution needs to be regulated, vis-a-vis licensing, restriction on modification (I've seen a few having 8 inch subs, oversized body guards protruding from the sides posing a scratch-danger to other vehicles), fares, driver behaviour, uniforms etc. Until then, these will proliferate rapidly without any control.

Originally Posted by Zappo

I think you are confusing up two very different things. All the reasons you have sighted here are more of governance issues. Fix what needs to be fixed. Governance impotency can't be the reason to blame the eRicks. It's as lame as the ruling that the entire India needs to bake in the hot summer sun inside a glass greenhouse (aka car) without any refuge to using sunfilms etc. because our law authorities are not able to bring the rape culprits to justice in quick time.

eRicks have their benefits when compared to what they are meant to replace (pedalled rickshaws). Rest of the issues like stealing of electricity, assigning zones where they can ply etc. are something that the local government needs to look into.

Beg to differ. Primary responsibility of not engaging in electricity theft rests with the user, the govt can't be a nanny to people to make them understand what is right & what is wrong. The owner is liable to follow all the rules, & ensure that his vehicle is being driven only by the authorised persons, & not those with impairment or below age. The government can only be an enforcer. But owner is always accountable, first & last.