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Old 7th February 2019, 09:45   #46
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by AJITHAAA View Post
Since he is from that organization, he is duty bound to do so and all he has done is stated facts.
The sentence I've marked in bold, summarizes what I wanted to say. An employee's word should be taken in, with a bit of skepticism, as with the rumors, because of the simple fact that "he's bound to defend his organization".

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Originally Posted by AJITHAAA View Post
Comments here are as if every other day an HAL serviced plane is crashing. After all this hoopla imagine if HAL is absolved of any wrong doing, what then.
I'd rather wait for the official report In any aviation accident or any accident for that matter, you get hundreds of opinion on who's fault it was. The recent Lion air 737MAX accident also is similar. As it happened in Asia, many people in the West immediately started blaming it on pilots and maintenance. Happens all the time.
One of my classmates and good friends is an employee of HAL (about 14 years now) and we get to discuss things about HAL, both good and bad. But I don't believe that we should bring it out and discuss in public. Let's wait for the report and ignore news which comes out of uninformed sources
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:09   #47
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Guys, a polite reminder of our rules that do not permit any posts on politics / politicians. Thank you!
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Old 10th February 2019, 01:05   #48
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
The sentence I've marked in bold, summarizes what I wanted to say. An employee's word should be taken in, with a bit of skepticism, as with the rumors, because of the simple fact that "he's bound to defend his organization".


I'd rather wait for the official report In any aviation accident or any accident for that matter, you get hundreds of opinion on who's fault it was. The recent Lion air 737MAX accident also is similar. As it happened in Asia, many people in the West immediately started blaming it on pilots and maintenance. Happens all the time.
One of my classmates and good friends is an employee of HAL (about 14 years now) and we get to discuss things about HAL, both good and bad. But I don't believe that we should bring it out and discuss in public. Let's wait for the report and ignore news which comes out of uninformed sources
I would like to state that you are wrong, especially in the case of aircrafts, there are strict guidelines layed out for testing and accreditation. Nobody can just say that I flew the aircraft so it is safe. Consider the aircraft, it's service history various other aspects before pointing fingers. Let's all wait for the CoI. Sorry for putting it bluntly, Even if HAL is at fault, it is only a lesson learnt as these mishaps are very very rare and nobody can foresee some of the mishaps... No disrespect to the lives lost...
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Old 10th February 2019, 10:30   #49
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https://epaper.tribuneindia.com/m5/2...2019#page/13/1

Two balanced viewpoints from very qualified individuals.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:10   #50
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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https://epaper.tribuneindia.com/m5/2...2019#page/13/1

Two balanced viewpoints from very qualified individuals.
PGA, The link doesn't see to work. Could you copy-paste the contents if it is not too much of trouble. Many thanks in advance.
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Old 10th February 2019, 11:17   #51
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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PGA, The link doesn't see to work. Could you copy-paste the contents if it is not too much of trouble. Many thanks in advance.
Could you try another browser; the link seems to work for me. The article is a thumbnail (picture) so can't extract any content. But found the full version of the same:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/su...et/726731.html
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Old 10th February 2019, 13:00   #52
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https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...ny/726725.html
https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...at/726728.html

https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...et/726731.html

Please try on these links, they should work. These are articles in today's The Tribune newspaper, Chandigarh edition.
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Old 10th February 2019, 14:17   #53
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by PGA View Post
https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...ny/726725.html
https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...at/726728.html

https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...et/726731.html

Please try on these links, they should work. These are articles in today's The Tribune newspaper, Chandigarh edition.

Thanks for posting the links. Just today morning, I had gone through the three articles while surfing through Tribune and the thought of posting them here had occured to me but then I thought better of it. To quote from former Air Chief Air Chief Marshal (Retd)S Krishnaswamy's Interview
Quote:
On social media, there are messages claiming to be from HAL test pilots saying they had flown six sorties of the plane that crashed.

Test pilots of HAL and the IAF are a close-knit community. These professionals are given different tasks and responsibilities. A set of test pilots at HAL are assigned to test fly production aircraft that come out after repair or upgrade. Once they clear it, another set of test pilots flies these for acceptance by the IAF. I understand that the aircraft that crashed was under acceptance testing.

Who is responsible for speed and quality of production?


The government and the Ministry of Defence production, in particular, are responsible for quality and pace of indigenous production. Normally, faster production should help to make more money. But, it is not true in the current scenario. HAL gets paid the cost plus an assured profit. The longer it takes to produce, more money it would make! There is no incentive to produce. To a world standard, our industry is over-manned.

Successive IAF chiefs have said HAL is slow in production. Do you agree?

Air chiefs have shown some impatience over delays and escalation of cost. It is not the responsibility of the Air Force to keep HAL floating. The IAF is pushed to the wall to extend existing production line to ensure HAL has adequate work. This approach should change. HAL must design own aircraft and helicopters and export these. It should offer products and services for export. A world-class aerospace industry cannot thrive only on the IAF alone.

Who is responsible for speed and quality of production?

The government and the Ministry of Defence production, in particular, are responsible for quality and pace of indigenous production. Normally, faster production should help to make more money. But, it is not true in the current scenario. HAL gets paid the cost plus an assured profit. The longer it takes to produce, more money it would make! There is no incentive to produce. To a world standard, our industry is over-manned.

How long does it take to go from eight to 12 Tejas per annum to 25 per year?

Maybe Boeing or BAE can expand capacity quickly as they have the infrastructure and trained manpower. We need to plan carefully, invest in a big way and proceed. The industry would need the best possible leadership and managers.

So what is holding it back?

What is lacking is the hunger to improve and passion for aeronautics, coupled with the fear to innovate.

Successive IAF chiefs have said HAL is slow in production. Do you agree?

Air chiefs have shown some impatience over delays and escalation of cost. It is not the responsibility of the Air Force to keep HAL floating. The IAF is pushed to the wall to extend existing production line to ensure HAL has adequate work. This approach should change. HAL must design own aircraft and helicopters and export these. It should offer products and services for export. A world-class aerospace industry cannot thrive only on the IAF alone.

Is the IAF worried?

The IAF is expected to win a war every time. It has the manpower and skill set, but not enough planes. We must develop these indigenously. Continuing to import is not the answer. Look at the Chinese, they show discipline, commitment and innovation. Aeronautics in India is yet to get due importance.
Though the former CAS rightly brings out that there's no alternative (presently) for production of combat aircraft in the country, I feel if we let an ecosystem develop, maybe there will be. The fledgling Indian Defence industry is taking steps in this direction and already partnering with international Defence majors to bag contracts from Defence Ministry. The L&T Group is assembling K-9 Vajra which was displayed in the Republic day parade. This along with another Gun System, ATAGS that is being developed proves that Indian industry is more than capable of reliably producing weapons and military equipment of significant complexity. Private shipyards are already producing warships, which are as complex as as it gets as far as weapon systems go. Manufacturing combat aircraft, though challenging given its complexities too wouldn't be unachievable should industry be given a chance. Many companies are producing aircraft parts that are utlised by aviation companies Like Boeing and Dassault in the final assembly of their aircraft. The MoD is also taking small steps in slowly opening the playing field to the industry as this instance proves.

Yet another of the three articles in the Tribune brings out the fact that HAL has lumbered like a behemoth that we have let it become and there have been repeated instances of severe time and cost overruns, with precious little innovation or competitiveness if at all. To quote the article
Quote:
In January this year, the Parliamentary Standing Committee of Defence revealed that the existing strength of the IAF’s trainer aircraft fleet is 310 against the sanctioned strength of 432. The IAF has a requirement of 183 basic trainer aircraft (BTA). At present, it has 75 Swiss-made PC-7 Mk-II, with a case for buying another 38 aircraft underway. Seventy BTA are to be manufactured by HAL.
As far as the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) is concerned, the role is being fulfilled by HAL-made Kiran, which is to be replaced by the IJT, also by HAL. The committee noted that HAL’s BTA, the HTT-40, has not obtained certification even two years after first flight of the prototype in 2016. The committee observed that theHAL’s IJT project was sanctioned in 1999. A contract was signed for delivering 12 limited series production aircraft in 2005 and 73 series production aircraft in 2010. However, the company is yet to complete IJT’s design and development.

The committee was “perturbed” that owing to the non-availability of the IJT, the IAF had to modify its training programme to a “two aircraft type flying training pattern” instead of the normally followed “three aircraft type flying training pattern”, progressing from the BTA to the IJT and then to the advance jet trainer. The IAF has now reportedly reverted to the three-aircraft pattern.

A few days ago, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa, came down heavily on HAL and said the IAF’s association with HAL had compromised its fighting capability. Inordinate delays in development, time and cost overruns in fleet upgrade works and quality issues are among reasons cited for the IAF’s unhappiness. Though HAL, as a public sector entity, faces a myriad of problems that most state-owned companies suffer — political interference, bureaucratic inertia, mismanagement of resources, job reservations and corruption, it has produced some success stories also
.
Here's a picture from the Tribune. It's stark and grim and remains a poignant reminder of the grave risks men and women in uniform take, sometimes paying with their lives, in safeguarding our sovereignty.

Name:  2019_2largeimg10_Sunday_2019_073316071gallery.jpg
Views: 1172
Size:  101.8 KB
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Old 13th February 2019, 16:47   #54
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by AJITHAAA View Post
I would like to state that you are wrong, especially in the case of aircrafts, there are strict guidelines layed out for testing and accreditation. Nobody can just say that I flew the aircraft so it is safe. Consider the aircraft, it's service history various other aspects before pointing fingers.

I'm quoting the same message from the HAL staff again:
Quote:
"Before an aircraft goes to the IAF, its standards are good enough for me to bet my life on it."
"Remember, every pilot in the IAF is also betting his life on my judgement."
Strong words from a senior Hindustan Aeronautics Limited test pilot who flew and handed over the very same Mirage 2000 fighter that crashed on its take-off run on Friday in Bengaluru.
What do you infer from these two sentences? In this context, it actually means nothing much. One can bet his life on the aircraft that he test flew, but that does not mean that there was no issue with the aircraft itself. There are standard test procedures and test pilots follow them. There is no guarantee that a component failure may occur during the test flights. It can happen during the acceptance flight or even during active service.
Also, I'm well aware of the acceptance/certification procedures and the standards which needs to be adhered to, while awarding certification to an aircraft. This has been in place for ages. But the thing one should not forget is that the standards/requirements have been updated multiple times when deficiencies in the processes has been discovered/identified. Sadly, many of these came to light after accidents and many people losing their lives. There has been a number of accidents in aviation history, where an aircraft which was certified under the existing standards, have failed during operation. This actually points to a deficiency in the standard or a gap in testing. This becomes a lessons learned as you mentioned and the relevant standards/procedures are updated.
I never mentioned in my post who's at fault. It could be the aircraft, it could be the pilots, it could be anything.
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Old 19th February 2019, 13:06   #55
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Another unfortunate incident just before the Aero India Expo:

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/two-...home-topscroll
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Old 20th March 2019, 19:27   #56
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Not IAF pilot error but HAL upgrade tech glitch suspected in Bengaluru Mirage 2000 crash
https://theprint.in/defence/not-iaf-...-crash/208275/

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It wasn’t pilot error but a possible lapse during the aircraft upgrade process that led to the 1 February Mirage 2000 crash at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) airport in Bengaluru, the court of inquiry (CoI) has found. According to the CoI, the crash was caused by an “uninitiated control input” — or a software glitch — during the jet’s user acceptance trial. “Even the soldering done on the hardware can actually send wrong signals to the software, which acts accordingly,” one source explained.

The entire sequence of the crash has been caught on video. The video shows the start of the trial, as the aircraft’s brakes are released and the flight is accelerated. At about 13 seconds from wheel roll, the sources said, the nose wheel is seen lifting off the ground with the plane taking off seven seconds later. When the aircraft is about five metres from the ground, the sources added, its nose pitches sharply downwards, with the jet then hitting the runway on its main wheels and tail
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Old 20th March 2019, 21:14   #57
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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“Even the soldering done on the hardware can actually send wrong signals to the software, which acts accordingly,” one source explained
Geez, such a generic statement. Totally lacks thoroughness/detail/professionalism. Looks like a statement made by a man on the street. I sure hope this is only a partial fragment of the CoI and that the full CoI transcript is far more thorough..
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Old 20th March 2019, 21:26   #58
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Geez, such a generic statement. Totally lacks thoroughness/detail/professionalism. Looks like a statement made by a man on the street.

Technically speaking it is entirely correct. Not sure how many people on the street would appreciate that?

Whether it played a role in this particular accident I do not know. But if you want to illustrate how thorough you need to design, build, verify test any component it is not a bad example

Jeroen
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Old 21st March 2019, 06:27   #59
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Technically speaking it is entirely correct. Not sure how many people on the street would appreciate that?

Whether it played a role in this particular accident I do not know. But if you want to illustrate how thorough you need to design, build, verify test any component it is not a bad example

Jeroen
My point is, everyone even with a little bit of technical competence knows what he is saying. But I don't expect that coming from a CoI! I expect details (like how NTSB gives), like say: "The soldering of one of the replaced surface mount voltage-regulation-module chips appears to have not been done well".
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Old 21st March 2019, 08:14   #60
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
My point is, everyone even with a little bit of technical competence knows what he is saying. But I don't expect that coming from a CoI! I expect details (like how NTSB gives), like say: "The soldering of one of the replaced surface mount voltage-regulation-module chips appears to have not been done well".
Please read the full report if ever you can lay your hands on it (unlikely though) and then comment. The point you are quoting is not from the CoI report but from 'informed sources enquiries' the journalist writer was trying to do homework with. Please read the article in the link.
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