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Old 13th March 2019, 12:26   #61
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
I think airlines, until advised by OEM may not be adept enough about the technicalities involved in switching the MCAS on or off by themselves. They may not know the parameters controlled by MCAS in detail and until the maker of the plane, here Boeing, itself comes out and states that it is safe to fly without MCAS with manual intervention of pilots.
But that is exactly what the second-last crew on Lion Air did; experienced the problem (which in the next flight led to the fatal crash), turned off MCAS and the flight went on uneventfully.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:36   #62
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

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Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
But that is exactly what the second-last crew on Lion Air did; experienced the problem (which in the next flight led to the fatal crash), turned off MCAS and the flight went on uneventfully.
I think they did not turn off the MCAS. There is no way to directly turn off the MCAS. Its part of Auto-trimming feature.
The only way to turn the MCAS alone off would be through a software update which takes time in the industry.

What the second-last Lion Air crew did was to go through the Runaway Stabilizer NNC (Non-Normal Checklist) and switch off Stabilizer Trim by moving the STAB TRIM switches to CUTOUT.
This was mentioned a few pages back in this thread here.

Last edited by arijitkanrar : 13th March 2019 at 12:40. Reason: Correction: Runway -> Runaway
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:34   #63
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

Trump announces immediate grounding of all B737 MAX.
https://m.timesofindia.com/world/us/...w/68400417.cms
As of now, only 3 MAXs can be seen in American airspace. What's baffling is that Air Canada had already grounded them but I can see one of them flying, AC7054 from San Francisco to Halifax. 2 others are of Westjet, one flying and one on ground. Another one flying is a Smartwings from Tunis to Prague, so total of 4 of them.

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screenshot_20190314072725.jpg

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screenshot_20190314072709.jpg
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:17   #64
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The notion and public cry of “Safety must come First” sounds good but is naive.
Grounding a fleet of aircraft under the pretence of safety above everything is too easy a way out for (government) aviation authorities
So far only the FAA holds true to what an aviation authority is supposed to be doing.
FAA has also decided to ground the fleet of Boeing 737-MAX. And they are indicating that the two crashes may be linked.





As a matter of fact, I believe that a regulatory authority should think about the flying public's safety rather than a manufacturer's profit. As mentioned in my earlier post, accidents like Turkish Airlines Flight 981 could have been avoided if FAA took the right stand. Better safe than sorry.
Not directly linked to the FAA, but the Boeing 737 rudder issues also comes to mind when we think about these accidents. 737's were allowed to fly at that time, only because NTSB could not determine the cause. United Airlines Flight 585 and USAir Flight 427 crashed and Eastwind Airlines Flight 517 had a narrow, lucky escape. When you consider these accidents, the design flaw was always there in the aircraft and was flying with the defect around the world. More people didn't die because the exact conditions for triggering the issue did not happen often.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:19   #65
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

The 737 Max crisis has wiped more than $25 billion off Boeing's market value

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/i...ing/index.html
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:38   #66
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

An interesting article in NYtimes based on the flight radar data , cannot imagine the panic of the passengers when this sort of hard oscillations happen.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...gtype=Homepage
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:43   #67
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

I dont understand why a class action lawsuit hasn't yet been filed again Boeing by aircraft carriers, governments, and next of kin of passengers as well. What gives? Are these guys protected by some kind of legislation?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:53   #68
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I dont understand why a class action lawsuit hasn't yet been filed again Boeing by aircraft carriers, governments, and next of kin of passengers as well. What gives? Are these guys protected by some kind of legislation?
I read that Norwegian airlines has already sued Boeing for damages to their revenue and wanted Boeing to foot the losses.
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Old 14th March 2019, 13:11   #69
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

One reason why Airlines dont sue Aircraft manufacturers is the duopoly that they have.
If they sue Boeing, the manufacturer can flat out refuse to sell new planes or support their existing fleet.

That puts you in a very awkward spot.
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Old 14th March 2019, 13:13   #70
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I dont understand why a class action lawsuit hasn't yet been filed again Boeing by aircraft carriers, governments, and next of kin of passengers as well. What gives? Are these guys protected by some kind of legislation?
Most likely they have already received dozens of claims. It is so common in the USA it rarely makes the news.

Americans will sue immediately. Remember the Panam/KLM Tenerife disaster in 1977. That accident happened on a Sunday afternoon. My dad was a lawyer in the Netherlands, specialising in International Transport Law. When he arrived at his office on Monday morning, the telex machines had run out of paper. Overnight he had been contacted by dozens of American lawyers asking him to represent their client and sue KLM. (which needs doing by a Dutch registered lawyer).

At that moment nobody had any clue as to what has happened. Less than 12 hours overnight! Still they sued. Things have not got any better in the USA. Unfortunately their motto is sue first, sue everybody, then figure out what happened and how you can extract as much money from anybody, no matter what.

It is so common, it is just part of how things go in the USA.

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Old 15th March 2019, 10:14   #71
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

This is scary. I have an inherent fear for flying, all thanks to a free fall sort of turbulence experienced during one of my flights to Delhi.

After the infamous Airbus 320neo fiasco, my routine for searching for flight tickets looks something like this.

1) Search for flights on the required day on Cleartrip/Paytm/MMT etc.
2) Select the flight and note down the flight number.
3) Check FlightAware/Flightradar/Flightstats about the model of aircraft based on the flight number.
4) If it is a 320neo, try for the next possible option.

In any of these sites, options are not there to identify whether the engine is made by P&W or Rolls Royce. So on a safer side, I completely avoid 320neos. I am sure that DGCA will revoke its decision to ground 737 MAX soon and I might need to add 737 MAX in my avoid list along with 320neos.

All the domestic operators have one issue or other from a safety point of view.

1) Jet Airways: Not regular with salary payment to both pilots and ground staff. This has got the highest risk rating in my opinion.
2) Go Air, Indigo, Air Vistara, Air Asia got 320neo in their fleet.
3) Spicejet got 737 MAX 8 in its fleet.
4) Air India: Old air crafts fueled with deep financial trouble. Still, there is a hope that GOI will bail it out of this mess.

It is true that the probability of being part of an air accident is very minimal. But no one tells you that the probability of surviving in case of air accident is also next to nothing.
So whenever time permits, I prefer taking Rajadhani or premium trains. The peace of mind I'm getting is worth more than the time saved from the two-hour mental torture I experience on flights.

On a side note, I should not have seen all the seasons of NatGeo Air Crash Investigation.
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Old 15th March 2019, 10:49   #72
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

There was a comprehensive article on the Lion Air crash in the New York Times in Feb (before the Ethiopian crash).
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/w...sh-pilots.html

One of the commenters was an experienced 737 pilot who had read the reports and is of the opinion that the crash is result of pilot error. His comments were quite instructive, if somewhat abrasive, so I am posting screenshots below


Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screen-shot-20190315-10.36.26-am.png

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screen-shot-20190315-10.36.40-am.png

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screen-shot-20190315-10.37.12-am.png

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screen-shot-20190315-10.37.36-am.png

Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding-screen-shot-20190315-10.38.16-am.png

Last edited by aah78 : 15th March 2019 at 19:36. Reason: Pictures inserted in-line.
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Old 15th March 2019, 13:00   #73
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteFang View Post
In any of these sites, options are not there to identify whether the engine is made by P&W or Rolls Royce. So on a safer side, I completely avoid 320neos.
Rolls Royce do not make engines for the A320NEO. It's either CFM International LEAP-1A (GE-Safran) or Pratt & Whitney PW1000G. It's the PW1000G which is/was having the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteFang View Post
On a side note, I should not have seen all the seasons of NatGeo Air Crash Investigation.
You are not alone in this. But somehow, it doesn't affect me much


Quote:
Originally Posted by coolvenk View Post
There was a comprehensive article on the Lion Air crash in the New York Times in Feb (before the Ethiopian crash).
One of the commenters was an experienced 737 pilot who had read the reports and is of the opinion that the crash is result of pilot error. His comments were quite instructive, if somewhat abrasive, so I am posting screenshots below
This is the other side of the bandwagon. He knows exactly what was going on in the cockpit of both Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. He would've saved both planes in the nick of a time. Why do we even have an investigation?
It's very easy to comment when you have the information about the crash, after it has occurred. What would have been going on in the cockpit during the emergency is a whole different thing. There are a lot of accidents like USAir Flight 1549, where another crew was able to return to LaGuardia Airport after the dual engine flameout, in a simulator. The difference - they had the background and immediately turned back after the bird strike.
Similar is the case with Alaska Airlines Flight 261. Once the cause was determined, some people opined why the crew tried to free the jammed stabilizer. The simple answer is that the crew never knew that the jack screw was about to giveaway. They were trying to release what they thought was a jammed stabilizer.

Last edited by A350XWB : 15th March 2019 at 13:02.
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Old 15th March 2019, 13:09   #74
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
But looks like SpiceJet is still flying them. I find it surprising considering that DGCA has said that it's order is effective immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@BoneCollector; I heard only Indigo & Jet were affected. Are you sure the Spice unit is not another variant. If so it may not be affected.

Also, the bug appears to be software related. Too much automation!
@BoneCollector: Sorry, I was wrong. Spice also has a few of these rogue planes in its fleet.

I stand corrected.

Last edited by navin : 15th March 2019 at 13:33.
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Old 15th March 2019, 13:24   #75
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Default re: Boeing 737 Max crashes and grounding

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolvenk View Post
There was a comprehensive article on the Lion Air crash in the New York Times in Feb (before the Ethiopian crash).
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/w...sh-pilots.html

One of the commenters was an experienced 737 pilot who had read the reports and is of the opinion that the crash is result of pilot error. His comments were quite instructive, if somewhat abrasive, so I am posting screenshots below
Completely agree with this assessment.

I'm not saying Boeing is not to blame for the Lion Air crash, but at the same time this begs the question "What were the pilots thinking?".
We were not in their place and we can and should not be judging their actions.
But at the same time this question arises in mind.
Boeing aircraft by design keep the pilot informed about EVERY action the automation is performing. This is done by the physically moving the flight controls just as a real pilot would do.
If the automation is making the aircraft climb, the control column would tilt back, vice-versa for descending.
If the automation is banking the plane, the control column will turn.
If the auto-throttle is adjusting engine thrust, the thrust levers would move accordingly.
If the auto-trim is adjusting the trim, the trim wheel will move accordingly.

The MCAS is part of the auto-trim system and works in conjunction with it to control the trim of the aircraft. What the pilots were experiencing was abnormal trim situation multiple times. Why did they not disable the auto-trim?

Also how did Lion Air maintenance manage to release the plane after the same fault was identified multiple times?

There are so many questions that need to be answered before we can squarely blame any one entity.
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