[vamsi.kona]

I believe, if we go deeper into this topic, we will not be able to delve into it without touching upon geopolitics. As of now nobody knows what transpired. It could be a missile or technical snag which brought down the plane. Also it is always better to take anything MSM, be it BBC or NYT or whatever, says with a bucket load of salt not just a pinch of salt.

With regards to investigation, Iran has only rejected handing over of black boxes to USA. They have invited every nation whose citizens died in the crash to be part of the investigation along with Boeing officials. They have also sought assistance of experts from France and Canada to analyse black box data.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

Quite possible. And probably that's why Iran govt quickly said they aren't sharing the blackbox with either Boeing or anyone else.

Isn't there any internationally binding agreement that states that black boxes of crashed airliners are to be handed over to the concerned authorities pending an investigation?. Iran may refuse to hand over the boxes to US since the US has no locus standi in asking for it. Neither was the plane theirs, not did they loose their citizens. Only the Ukrainian / Canadian Govt can ask for the boxes since its Ukrainian state plane and they lost their citizens. Correct me if am wrong. However there must be a legally binding organization to which Iran has to hand over the boxes since they are signatories.

Boeing would also investigate only if Ukraine/Canada asks them to do. Since POTUS is so friendly with Ukraine () it should be possible now.

[Newpunter]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Isn't there any internationally binding agreement that states that black boxes of crashed airliners are to be handed over to the concerned authorities pending an investigation?. Iran may refuse to hand over the boxes to US since the US has no locus standi in asking for it.

I think US can get involved as the plane was manufactured by Boeing in the US. But things are complicated because of the US sanctions on Iran. Quoting from an article on Washington Post :

"Under the protocols, the United States has a right to participate in the probe because the jet was built and certified in the country.

Still, U.S. sanctions against Iran, which include limits on travel and information-sharing, will complicate any U.S. involvement.

NTSB officials would have to seek a license from the U.S. Office of Foreign Assets Control to travel to Iran, a process can take months or even years, experts say. And even if they secure a license, U.S. officials may still be limited in what information they can share with Iranian officials."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...860_story.html

[Dieseltuned]

Let's not forget that the IAF also shot down one of it's own helicopters post the balakot strike

[car love]

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Attachment 1955438

Discussions are that how is it confirmed that the picture of the seeker head is indeed from this particular crash site.

Quite a lot of other crash site pictures here:
https://www.isna.ir/amp/98101813851/...mpression=true

They have masked out the picture of a dead woman and left the guys picture as is (couple photo). So sad, but the depravity of that thought by the authorities there even in death is quite shocking.

[kalyan_hyd]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Why am I getting a feeling someone knew exactly where to look & at exactly what time...

Apparently, the user who shot the video, heard another missile about 4-5 minutes before this one. And started shooting, this was supposedly a short video of the second missile. I think there were missiles heard earlier in the day/ evening so people were expecting some retaliation and hence prepared to shoot.

Originally Posted by srini1785

Isn't there any internationally binding agreement that states that black boxes of crashed airliners are to be handed over to the concerned authorities pending an investigation.

There is, the Black Box is supposed to be shared and co-investigation needs to be carried with:

1. Country of Origin of the flight - Iran
2. Country of Destination of the flight - Ukraine
3. Base Country of Airline - Ukraine Airlines - Ukraine
4. Country of the manufacturer of the flight - Boeing - US in this case

However, lately many countries have dodged regulations (of whatever sort) for instance US recently refused to grant VISA to the Iranian foreign minister to attend UN assembly at New York although it was part of the agreement while setting up the UN HQ in NY.

[mazda4life]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Isn't there any internationally binding agreement that states that black boxes of crashed airliners are to be handed over to the concerned authorities pending an investigation?.

Quoting from Guardian newspaper 'Under the rules of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, of which Iran, Ukraine and the US are all members, air crash investigations are led by the country where the accident occurred.'
but retrieving the recording from the CVR is not a straight forward thing and requires expert assistance and guess this black box could be from Honeywell.

[V.Narayan]

Without commenting on the authenticity or otherwise of these videos I would say at this stage we know precious little. It may be an unintentional blue on blue hit or some techinical snag. Till the black box is analysed we cannot say. I believe it is immature for some political leaders to start claiming it was a missile. In this age of morphed videos anything can be put together.

The aircraft was one a several taking off from that country's largest airport. Even if there was a SAM battery in the vicinity this signal on the radar could scarcely have been unique. Airliners take off from international airports at some defined frequency. There must have been some more take-off's in the hour preceding. Also the missile attacks from Iran to US bases in Iraq may not have necessarily taken place from Tehran - more likely from a forward based unit. So for a SAM battery commander to have got nervous is unlikely. But then so did the USS Vincennes,

The designated authority who now controls the black boxes are the Iranian and the Ukranian regulators. I suspect the black box analysis will go to France which is respected as a neutral analyser in such circumstances.

[atmosphere]

New Info apparently


Video recording appears to show a missile making impact on an aircraft over Tehran. The New York Times says visual and sonic clues in the footage match flight path information and satellite imagery of the area near where Flight PS752 crashed. (Video courtesy of the New York Times) 0:20

https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1215354885924847616

[amitgaja007]

Most leaders including Boris Johnson, Justin Trudeau, Ukrainian PM as well as Trump have indicated that this was actually an accidental shot down of the Ukrainian aircraft.

Iranians authorities are refusing to hand over the black box of this aircraft to Boeing and Ukraine - looks very shady indeed.

Very common for such incidents to happen when defenses are on DEFCON-5 and when the missile shields are active and ready to pounce on any ingress from enemy fighters & bombers. Iran was definitely on a lookout for American response after they launched 15+ missiles to American bases in Iraq - most hit their target.

In fact the last such incident which I can recall was the accidental shoot down of our very own Mi-17 attack chopper in Budgam during the Indo-Pak flare up.

Almost 150 passengers out of 170 who died were Iranians, a subset of them had dual citizenship's with Canada.

Thankfully this situation has deescalated, per insiders, Trump was ready to take revenge had even a single American soldier died - thankfully that did not happen!

[fhdowntheline]

If the video is indeed authentic, there would be a streak of fire and the original yellow dot would be larger, with some sort of a plume. This could yet have been a catastrophic engine failure, hence no additional continuous fire. Lets hold our horses for now . The world is deeply prejudiced either way right now.

[V.Narayan]

I am no expert on forensic analysis of missiles hitting aircraft videos but for the life of me I cant determine how this New York Times video , quoted on this thread, purports to be first a missile hitting an airliner and second proves this is that very incident and in Tehran. Please don't say it is true because the NYT says so.

[D33-PAC]

Slightly off topic remark.

It is a surreal feeling for me. My last India to USA trip involves flying directly from Dubai to US over Iran .

On the way to India we flew over the borderlines or Iraq and Syria.

Little unsettling to think 176 people died in the same region.


This is a very rough neighbourhood in the world and India has many shortcomings but at no point from Dubai to India leg do I feel a sliver of fear over whether my life is at risk.

God knows when that region will change . Sky being blue and that region being troublesome seem like a norm.

[dragracer567]

They have been quite a few SAM mistakes in the last decade:

1) MH17 shot down by the Russians
2) IAF Mil Mi-17 helicopter shot down during the air skirmish with Pakistan
3) The Ukraine air shot down by Iran

This clearly shows that in a hostile airspace, it is quite difficult to differentiate between a hostile aircraft and a civilian/friendly aircraft despite IFF transponders being present in most. So, the best way to avoid this would be to shut down the hostile airspace during tensions and airlines avoiding them as much as possible. Offcourse, this isn’t always possible, for example Qatar airways still flys over Syria because they have no other alternative after the closure of the Saudi and UAE airspace for their flights.

And as most people pointed out, life has come fill circle since more than 30 years back, the US navy made a similar mistake. I just hope that the Iranians will own up and not live in denial like the Russians.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

If the video is indeed authentic, there would be a streak of fire and the original yellow dot would be larger, with some sort of a plume. This could yet have been a catastrophic engine failure, hence no additional continuous fire. Lets hold our horses for now . The world is deeply prejudiced either way right now.

In 2003, a DHL Airbus A300 cargo plane taking off from Baghdad was hit by a shoulder launched surface-to-air missile, which caused quite a bit of crippling damage to the aircraft but neither the engine nor the control surfaces were damaged. There was no fire as such but the hydraulic systems did get damaged so flight controls were unresponsive.

The crew managed to land the plane using only throttles to control the aircraft.

A SAM does not necessarily have to 'crash' into its target or set it on fire to destroy it. As soon as the missile comes close to its target, the 'proximity fuse' on the missile gets activated and the warhead in the missile explodes thereby crippling its target(this proximity fuse detonation was shown to some extent accurately in the movie 'Behind Enemy Lines' Super Hornet shootdown scene).

The extent of this damage varies and that is why I gave the DHL example above. MH17 wasn't so lucky as the missile exploded very close to the aircraft which caused it to break into pieces mid-air. During Kargil, 106 Sqn Recce Canberra got hit by a SAM but still managed to land safely.