[JithinR]

Originally Posted by aim120

It could well be, but according to RT news, Iranian military informed the government that they may have been responsible and the Iranian commander who was responsible wished he was dead. But they waited for the proper procedures to follow before announcing it.
https://www.rt.com/news/478011-irgc-...guilt-downing/

If that is case then Iran should not have put out a statement denying it was responsible for the crash even as intelligence agencies of multiple countries came to believe that it was Iran who did it albeit unintentionally.

Originally Posted by aim120

I think you need to read again what I posted, I said this caused "every Iranian" to hate US. I say this because I read that only after this incident did they started the infamous chant "death to ---" .

If you want to believe that then please go ahead and do so. This looks like a statement just meant to split hairs to make your previous argument valid. I am fine with that. My viewpoint is that every country has a segment of the population that hates or is neutral or in harmony with another country at all times.

[aim120]

One must wonder how can Iran mistake the radar signature of 737 vs a cruise missile. Not sure if those Tor AA missiles have an abort function.

My theory is, I think they would have seen several US stealth UAV in the air and Iran do have radars which can detect them but those radars are not accurate enough to give them any sort of firing solution. While most anti stealth radar tech is classified, most common anti stealth radars use long wave length and are more like a early warning radar to detect stealth aircraft's in an general area.

The US said they observed the Tor mobile AA radar locking and only way they can know this is, if they had a stealth UAV or UCAV in Iranian air space soaking up the radar emission because when the radar locks on, the TOR fire control radar is going to physically rotate and point at the direction of the target and to get a firing solution it electronically scans rapidly in a narrow beam width, (not to be confused with the search radar which is spinning) so there must have been stealth UAV operating in the roughly the same area where the passenger jet went down, probably even in the line of sight of the radar beam.


Iran in 2011 did down a RQ170 stealth UAV, supposedly by electronic jamming. The fact that they detected it shows that they can spot them.

The SBIRS (space based Infra Red) would have given US, real time IR launch info.
Here is what the small sensor in the F35 can see, imagine what a several Ton satellite can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF29GBSpRF4

[skanchan95]

Iranian missile hit plane's cockpit from below, Ukraine official says, as crash footage emerges

Ukraine's top security official has said investigators believe the cockpit of a downed Ukraine International Airlines Boeing 737-800 airliner was hit by an Iranian missile from below, killing the pilots instantly.


Ukraine's National Security and Defence Secretary Oleksiy Danilov has spoken about images and video of the wreckage taken by Ukrainian officials in Iran investigating the crash, which killed all 176 people onboard.

"It hit the cockpit from underneath. We think this is proof," Mr Danilov told the BBC, referring to a photo of the downed cockpit taken by Ukrainian investigators.

"It explains why we didn't hear anything from the pilots. They died immediately after the first hit."

MH17 was also hit very close to the cockpit, instantly killing the pilots.

[DirtyDan]

The notion that somebody "heard" a SAM and then tracked it with their camera is ridiculous.
SAMs, even obsolete old ones, travel at greater than the speed of sound. Hence nobody "tracked it" by sound. Without expert forensic technical evidence, I think it is going to be hard to, at first glance, tell between shrapnel holes caused by exploding engine(s) and shrapnel holes caused by SAMs. We need more objective evidence here to come to an intelligent conclusion. And we may not get it.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

The notion that somebody "heard" a SAM and then tracked it with their camera is ridiculous.

SAMs, even obsolete old ones, travel at greater than the speed of sound. Hence nobody "tracked it" by sound.t.

Just to clarify: do you believe when something travels at a greater speed than sound, there is no sound?

Jeroen

[skanchan95]

need more objective evidence here to come to an intelligent conclusion. And we may not get it.

Hasn't it be proven beyond doubt that the aircraft hit by 9M331 missiles from a SA-15 battery, not one but two 9M331s!!! Even The chief of IRGC-ASF accepted that his forces shot that aircraft down by mistake, so what else is left to conclude? The only picture Iran is now trying to paint is that the US is somehow responsible for that shootdown.

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Just to clarify: do you believe when something travels at a greater speed than sound, there is no sound?

Jeroen

Maybe, he just meant that there is no way a human could visually track something that travelled at mach1+ at night.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Hasn't it be proven beyond doubt that the aircraft hit by 9M331 missiles from a SA-15 battery, not one but two 9M331s!!! Even The chief of IRGC-ASF accepted that his forces shot that aircraft down by mistake, so what else is left to conclude? The only picture Iran is now trying to paint is that the US is somehow responsible for that shootdown.

There have been denials of this scenario from high within the Iranian military itself. The credibility of the major players in this debacle are all suspect. "What else is left to conclude?" ....why conclude anything at this point? If it was a mistake it seems like an unfathomably colossal one. One thing I would be especially interested in is the passenger list.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

There have been denials of this scenario from high within the Iranian military itself. The credibility of the major players in this debacle are all suspect.

Well, there are CCTV clips of those SAM's being launched, mobile videos the aircraft getting hit and finally confessions of IRGC-ASF commander and the Iranian Foreign Minister apologizing for the shootdown.

I know I am going off topic, but this point is necessary. Compared to the IRGC, Iran's conventional military arms are politically powerless. To this days
, Iranian Air Force officers are viewed with great mistrust by the IRGC. IRGC , pretty much linked to Iran's Ayatollahs and protection of their political system, has it's own Army, Naval and Air Arms. Also, the SA-15s are operated by the IRGC-ASF and they themselves have admitted their mistake. In such a scenario, how credible are such denials coming from Iran's "military"?

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

"What else is left to conclude?" ....why conclude anything at this point? If it was a mistake it seems like an unfathomably colossal one. One thing I would be especially interested in is the passenger list.

Such civilian aircraft shootdown 'mistakes' with great loss of lives have happened in the past . The reasons ranged from honest mistakes, missile firings gone wrong to deliberate targeting of civilian aircraft. The PAF even ordered one of their F-86s to shoot down an Indian civilian Beechcraft in the 1965 war, that killed the Gujarat CM B R Mehta. The morality of such shootdown incidents are debatable, but such mistakes have happened in the past, deliberate or otherwise.

Remember, even the IAF Mi-17 that was shootdown in the friendly fire incident last year in February was scarcely believable at first but even that was a horrible and unbelievable mistake.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by JithinR

Maybe, he just meant that there is no way a human could visually track something that travelled at mach1+ at night.

As long as it is lit, right angle and distance, why not? It will make a heck of racket too, even going faster then the speed of sound. And you might hear it breaking through the sound barrier too!

What might be difficult is to identify it as a SAM. But seeing and hearing something going over the sound of speed isn't a big thing at all.
Jeroen

[pratyush6]

Differing with the cause, the effect on this has been profound in Canada. I along with my family was at a Community Vigil to pay tribute to the 57 Canadians that died in this tragedy, this Monday night.

Among the deceased were a couple from my gym, whom I remember meeting. My wife had a colleague. The stories are heartbreaking and such tragic loss is beyond words. The scenes at the Vigil were very tragic as most people were in tears. Although everyone that died in this tragedy was an Iranian, the people attending pretty much cut across a broad spectrum of Canadians.

Here is a link to the story:
https://www.yorkregion.com/news-stor...crash-victims/

I pray for these souls. This is heartbreaking.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

As long as it is lit, right angle and distance, why not? It will make a heck of racket too, even going faster then the speed of sound. And you might hear it breaking through the sound barrier too!

What might be difficult is to identify it as a SAM. But seeing and hearing something going over the sound of speed isn't a big thing at all.
Jeroen

No offence but you are wrong about this. Both seeing and hearing anything going even NEAR the speed of sound in the broad daylight will be hard to see or track. But in this case it was still dark so seeing ain't happening. And if you point your camera at where the sound is coming from, if you can even figure that out, the SAM simply is no longer there nor is it close to that vector in all likelihood. I am an ex-Army guy who has been flown over by a whole lot of fast aircraft. This is experience talking.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

As long as it is lit, right angle and distance, why not? It will make a heck of racket too, even going faster then the speed of sound. And you might hear it breaking through the sound barrier too!

What might be difficult is to identify it as a SAM. But seeing and hearing something going over the sound of speed isn't a big thing at all.
Jeroen

Here's the video(CCTV video, manually filmed off the monitor) that confirms the SAM launches at the Ukrainian 738.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeMoXqbqLBA

Both missiles could be tracked immediately after launch, thanks to the bright light from the missile exhaust in the dark sky. Surely there would have been missile launch sounds heard on the ground as well(an explosion sound after the missile hit could be heard as well in other videos). I feel the sounds and the visuals from those set of unfortunate events grabbed the attention of the other "videographers".

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Well, there are CCTV clips of those SAM's being launched, mobile videos the aircraft getting hit and finally confessions of IRGC-ASF commander and the Iranian Foreign Minister apologizing for the shootdown.

I know I am going off topic, but this point is necessary. Compared to the IRGC, Iran's conventional military arms are politically powerless. To this days
, Iranian Air Force officers are viewed with great mistrust by the IRGC. IRGC , pretty much linked to Iran's Ayatollahs and protection of their political system, has it's own Army, Naval and Air Arms. Also, the SA-15s are operated by the IRGC-ASF and they themselves have admitted their mistake. In such a scenario, how credible are such denials coming from Iran's "military"?

.

You present an articulate, well-reasoned and fact-based presentation which is very compelling. I appreciate your thoughts on this sorry matter.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

I am an ex-Army guy who has been flown over by a whole lot of fast aircraft. This is experience talking.

It is all about how your eyes work, at what distance can they pick up what. if in any doubt I would be happy to explain the physics. As the video clearly shows these missile were clearly visible in the night sky. I could give you endless examples of planes, missiles and rockets being visible by the naked eye.

I am a pilot and I was also in the navy during the tanker war in the early 80’s Trust me, I have seen plenty of fast moving missiles and all sorts of other stuff moving through the air. Day and night time. Because of the particular risk we had all electronics switched off and used extra lookouts. They nearly always managed to spot the missiles before it hit, mostly tankers.

As you mentioned, sound is not relevant, as it will be slow to reach you. But this video is very similar to what I have seen several times, against shipping though, not planes

Jeroen