[Sedate]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

.........

Similarly in 1913 the UK had reserved G, B*, V, M as its symbols for radio call signs - this was really for ships but by extension applied to aircraft too. So in 1928 as the UK had the rights over V they used two or three digit letters starting with V for all their colonies. Australia got VH, India got VT etc. Why H for Australia and T for India is lost in some dead bureaucrats mind. VT was certainly not Viceroy's Territory.

...........

For callsigns, V was assigned to British Colonies and only to British colonies "managed" by a Viceroy. This is a colonial baggage we are still holding on to. We do have different sets allocated to us already - which are "AT to AW" and "8T to 8Y". The problem with VT,VU and VW callsign is that it could raise doubts in the minds of the receiver whether Republic of India is still being aligned to the Queen - Even though we are a proud independent democratic country.

The change is not done to new callsigns (AT-AW or 8T-8Y) yet, as we all know how our bureaucrats work and think!

While I normally don't heed to much of the nationalist cries, distinguishing ourselves as an independent nation seems fair in this case IMHO. Most other countries using callsign starting with V are still aligned to the Queen (Canada, Australia, St.Kitts etc.)

PS:- I dont mind Alpha Tango or Alpha Victor. It seems to have an "Alpha" element to it. For Amateur Radio usage, we are currently having "AT" callsigns issued for special events. Indian COVID special event callsigns now starts with AT.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

In the Netherlands, our king, is a pilot with all the necessary commercial ratings. He flies incognito as co-pilot with KLM/Martinair to stay current and pilots the Dutch governmental plane too.

Jeroen

Must be quite a guy!!!

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Kanchan sir, that may well be the final livery (if the image is real), as we have seen from the earlier test flights of Boeing/Airbus. The first thing they do is to paint/repaint the bird after fitting the necessary modifications and begin with the flight tests. As you know the paint adds significant weight to the aircraft, they prefer to have it done before they commence with any kind of testing. Atleast, from my experience I have seen airbus do it this way, don't think Boeing does anything different here. But, that doesn't stop them from adding logos or some small paint schemes like registration number under the wings at a later stage.

I agree. But the markings just don't look right and natural. I could of course be wrong and I would wait for more pictures or confirmation from the govt( but in these days of confirmations based on twitter rumours, I would even doubt that. The most famous one being out the then RM- Ms Sitharaman claiming that she knew of the name of the down PAF Viper pilot!!!!)

Originally Posted by Foxbat

There are two pictures on Airliners.net:

I viewed the pic on a 24 inch monitor and you can clearly see the flag, roundel, stripes and windows are photoshopped!

Thanks for the pic. If you zoom in and look carefully, there may be some evidence of usage of Smudge & Eraser tools in the pic as well (just above the engine pylon - marked in yellow) - that little area been hazed out almost. And look at those windows(even in the pictures on airliners.net) - they don't look right either. Or am I seeing too much?

[Stratos]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Thanks for the pic. If you zoom in and look carefully, there may be some evidence of usage of Smudge & Eraser tools in the pic as well (just above the engine pylon - marked in yellow) - that little area been hazed out almost. And look at those windows(even in the pictures on airliners.net) - they don't look right either. Or am I seeing too much?

Yes, you are seeing too much.

Please find the smudge you are talking about in the attached picture. It is the engine pylon (?) that connects the engine to the wings.

Talking about the windows, this is a passenger aircraft converted to VIP, interior has been modified to have partitions like other governmental aircraft. This is why all windows do not look the same.

Trust me, I am on Airliners.net for more than a decade and I also use Photoshop. Good photoshoppers do not do amateur mistakes like this to be caught. =)

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

...

In the Netherlands, our king, is a pilot with all the necessary commercial ratings. He flies incognito as co-pilot with KLM/Martinair to stay current and pilots the Dutch governmental plane too.

Jeroen

Off-Topic Question:

what do you mean incognito? Does he use a beard and a mustache to hide his identity (like indian bollywood villians) and if so how is the security check able to identify him (at the end of the day he is a person and needs to be identified) at airports? I am sure his security detail also travel along with him during such flights! So much expense to keep one man's licence alive and who is paying for all those expenses?

Not to damage his Reputation or not out of disrespect to the Dutch King but out of sheer curiosity and as a tax paying citizen I am always amazed at how these elite class/ruler class always tend to enjoy at our expenses, be it India or elsewhere. If he pays for it out of his own pocket, well and good!

[Foxbat]

Used an online software to analyse the image: it uses the Error Level Analysis (ELA) to identify areas within an image that are at different compression levels. With JPEG images, the entire picture should be at roughly the same error level. If a section of the image is at a significantly different error level, then it likely indicates a digital modification.

Here is Kim Jon with Gangnam style which is obviously a fake:



All the unique Indian livery is a highlighted, seems to be a fake!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

what do you mean incognito? Does he uses a beard and a mustache to hide his identity (like indian bollywood villians) and if so how is the security check able to identify him (at the end of the he is a person and needs to be identified) at airports? I am his security detail also travel along with him during such flights! So much expense to keep one man's licence alive and who is paying for all those expenses?

Not to damage his Reputation or not out of disrespect to the Dutch King but out of sheer curiosity and as a tax paying citizen I am always amazed at how these elite class/ruler class always tend to enjoy at our expenses, be it India or elsewhere. If he pays for it out of his own pocket, well and good!

He is incognito in the sense that the passengers are not aware it is the King up front. The crew is aware and he insists on being just a regular crew member so they don’t call him your royal highness, just Alex. He mingles and socialises with the crew as much as possible as any regular crew member would do

He has flown the previous Dutch Governmental plane Fokker F70, but also has a Boeing 737 type rating. At the time KLM city hopper operated Fokker F70 and he used to fly twice a month. When the government decided the F70 needed replacing by something a bit more modern, he got his 737 type rating. As far as I am aware he pays for himself although this is not clear I don’t think KLM pays him a salary either. One thing is clear, by having him pilot the government plane we are saving on a pilot salary as such!

Our King does require security, but it is very small and you won’t notice it.
I once did notice our King walking through the terminal building, with the rest of the crew, to his plane. You would be hard pressed to distinguish him from any of the regular crews/pilots roaming the terminal.

Dutch royalty keeps a very low profile and most of them like to engage and be amongst the Dutch public by themselves. These days it has become a bit more of a problem due to security/safety concerns.

Some years ago, whilst still living near the Hague, my wife bumped into Queen Beatrix inside a shop. Literally. She sort of stepped back whilst turning and bumped into this other woman. Whom happened to be the Dutch Queen doing some of her own shopping. They both said something along the line of “oh I am sorry” and went on shopping both of them. My wife never noticed security.

The King and Queen children attend regular schools, just like they did. Yes, there is security, but again very much hidden.

Many Dutch are quite fond of the Royal Family. They like and appreciate the fact that the Dutch royals, try to act as ordinary Dutch citizens in many ways. Obviously, there are restrictions these days and people are appreciative of that.

Dutch people are more likely to be appreciative of the fact, that the royal family does live a bit in a golden cage than worry about cost of security. It is the price of democracy these days.

The one thing that hits the news now and then is what is cost to have a Royal Family, what do we the tax payers pay for, how much do they earn, how much do they pay for themselves. But in general that rarely becomes a big issue.

These dates, to the best of my knowledge we don’t have a single political party (and we have dozens and dozens of political parties) that want to change our constitutional monarchy into something else. It is simply not an issue. By and large the Royal family is pretty popular with the Dutch.

Personally, I don’t like the idea of a monarchy. I think it is a totally outdated concept. But then again, it does bring certain value/things to many people and there are much bigger and important issues that need addressing. In the Netherlands the King has absolutely no formal role to play in politics. So we are a parliamentary democracy with a Royal as formal head of state. But as such all he/she does is sign of anything the government/parliament decides.

King Willem Alexander addressed the nation a few weeks ago on the Corona crisis. Having the king/queen addressing the nation is almost unheard of. But many people felt he did a really good job. Calling for unity and joint approach to this crisis.

Jeroen

[mirashub]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

The aircraft designated to fly VVIPs like our President, our Vice-President and our Prime Minister has call sign Air India One. All these years, a Boeing 747 from the Air India was used for these flights. Lately, there were talks of a new one replacing the ageing B747s. And we have finally got one of the 2 exclusive aircraft to be designated Air India One. It's a B777-300ER which has undergone extensive protection modifications as well as anti missile systems. Details here. These will be flown by the Indian Air Force pilots, just like the 737 BBJs these dignitaries use for travel inside India or neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka and Nepal.

This aircraft was supposed to be flown by IAF pilots of the Communications Squadron (Pegasus - as mentioned by a contributor earlier). BUT the Air India lobby is so strong that not only has this VIP plane been given to Air India for operations but the designated pilots are to be given a FAT BONUS for flying the VIPs. IAF pilots do it for the honour - no extra allowances.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

He is incognito in the sense that the passengers are not aware it is the King up front. T

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Off-Topic Question:
what do you mean incognito?

A great little video if you want to find out more about the Dutch king moonlighting as a KLM pilot, although Jeroen pretty neatly ran through most of the points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLY7mpG3Adc

Kinda makes you wonder how it would've been if Rajeev Gandhi had been able to continue as a civil pilot and not get drawn into politics. It's about the closest domestic analogy I can think of and it was well before I was even born so perhaps others can say if they ever had Mr Gandhi as their pilot.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Used an online software to analyse the image: it uses the Error Level Analysis (ELA) to identify areas within an image that are at different compression levels.

This is actually pretty neat! Sorry again to draw the discussion off topic but I'd love to know the website, just to tinker around with.

At this rate the debate regarding the veracity of the image is going to carry on a while. I guess we'll need it to start popping up on multiple plane spotters feeds to really clear all doubt.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ads11

This is actually pretty neat! Sorry again to draw the discussion off topic but I'd love to know the website, just to tinker around with.
t.

Google "error level analysis online” and you will find a host of different online services for checking images.

I popped the URL of the dispute image into a few of them. All come up with an analysis showing this image is likely modified. (Whether it means the whole image is fake is a different question though)

I don’t quite understand how they say this ELA works. Their explanation on having different compression ratio’s in one and the same JPEG? I need to think some more. What if I use multiple (partial) layers in photoshop to edit an original RAW file in Photoshop and ultimately compress those different edited layers into one and convert to JPEG? I might want to do some testing.

Anybody more familiar with these ELA techniques, how reliable are they, when can you trust/not trust it to be a manipulated / fake image?

Jeroen

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Stratos

Yes, you are seeing too much.

Please find the smudge you are talking about in the attached picture. It is the engine pylon (?) that connects the engine to the wings.

May be I wasn't clear enough in my last post. I Know it is an engine pylon. What I meant was the section marked in yellow(just above the engine pylon) was blurry & hazy. It is almost as if someone made an error or overcorrected after painting those saffron and green cheatline stripes.

I have tried to show the exact same spot and painting mistake in the images below(Look at the engine plyons in both images)


If the above image is edited to make it look like a 9W jet and if I make a mistake while painting the underside blue, a painting mistake/overcorrection/masking just above the engine pylon would look somewhat like this. Although I overdid it deliberately to make it look too obvious:


And this is exactly what I had tried to show in my last post. That there seems to be some clever editing in the 773 pic posted by Foxbat that caused the haziness/blurriness in the area marked in yellow.

[norhog]

https://youtu.be/zB1zH3VjcDk

Please watch this video. If I understand correctly this is not ready yet.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ads11

Kinda makes you wonder how it would've been if Rajeev Gandhi had been able to continue as a civil pilot and not get drawn into politics. It's about the closest domestic analogy I can think of and it was well before I was even born so perhaps others can say if they ever had Mr Gandhi as their pilot.
.

Here is a little anecdote I had saved in my backup HDD about Rajiv Gandhi. This was written by someone whom Rajiv Gandhi had flown. He was(still is) one of the few politicians I truly admired. There was a certain grace and kindness in everything he did, which made a great impact on my young mind then. I remember I cried a lot when news of his assasination first came in.

"Would you like to take the next flight to Delhi?" I woke up with a start. An airline officer was asking me that question.This was in 1970 when Air Marshal P C Lal had taken over Indian Airlines and was trying to make it more efficient. I had gone to Calcutta and was supposed to stay for one night only. But the pilots had gone on mass sick leave, throwing the airline schedule into complete disarray.I had checked out from my hotel as per schedule, but after reaching the airport, was told that the flight was not leaving that day. I went back to the hotel where I was informed that there were no rooms.

I tried to find out the possibility of taking a train, but that too was impossible. Trains were fully booked for the next few months.That''s how I stayed the entire night in the airport lounge, which was no better than a railway platform.

It was at this point that I was told of the next flight being available. Instead of the regular Caravelle jet, a smaller Fokker Friendship Turbo Prop plane had come from Delhi and was going back immediately after refuelling. I boarded the plane and found a friend of mine on board.

After the plane took off the air hostess started serving beverages. We asked for breakfast. The answer was, that as per the orders of the Air Marshal, no meals or snacks were to be served during the flight.

She further added that the entire crew including the pilot and co-pilot had not eaten anything, except for a cup of coffee. I had some Bengali sweets which I was carrying back home and my friend was carrying tins of . We asked the hostess to distribute what we had amongst the crew and the passengers.

A beaming young pilot emerged from the cabin and we were introduced to him by the hostess as the passengers who had supplied the goodies. He thanked us profusely. There was something familiar
about the pilot's face which we could not pinpoint at that time. At Delhi airport, when we started disembarking, the young pilot once again thanked us. We told him his face was familiar. He replied, "Maybe, my name is Rajiv Gandhi and I am the co-pilot of this plane." He smiled and folded his hands into a Namaskar.

Mrs Indira Gandhi, his mother was the prime minister of the country then. Yet, he had no qualms in earning his salary as a pilot. In a TV interview, Rajiv Gandhi later said he enjoyed flying as it gave him "freedom" and took him away from routine life. I am sure the Dutch King is as just down to earth as Rajiv Gandhi was.

There have been many Indian politician pilots as well. There's Rajeev Pratap Rudy, who was/is an Indigo A320 pilot. I believe the current Telengana Congress President- Uttam Kumar Reddy was a IAF pilot and had flown MiG-23MFs. There have been other pilots who went on to be become politicians as well - Rajesh Pilot I believe was an IAF transport pilot as well and flew DHC-4s.

[V.Narayan]

Permit me to differ. I do not wish to sound rude but am afraid will end up sounding that way nevertheless.

Originally Posted by Sedate

For callsigns, V was assigned to British Colonies and only to British colonies "managed" by a Viceroy.

The only British colony managed by a Viceroy was India. All others were headed by a Governor General. The V in the series has nothing to do with word "Viceroy". Britain took G for Great Britain, B for Britain and then M and V as they were available. Please let's not cling to internet untruths. If this was the case how come people like me never heard of this alleged fact for the first quarter century of our careers.

This is a colonial baggage we are still holding on to.

It is for each of us to decide what we feel insecure about. Why stop with the British. There are a thousand practices, foods, words, legal norms that are continuing from Mughal times too. Our great country has a healthy future ahead. I for one would not waste energy grovelling over these issues. English language - let's eliminate that too? Ranks and epaulettes of the Armed Forces, ranks of the IAS, many principles of our constitution. I can make a very long list for anyone who wishes to feel insecure.

The problem with VT, VU and VW callsign is that it could raise doubts in the minds of the receiver whether Republic of India is still being aligned to the Queen - Even though we are a proud independent democratic country.

Your personal view Sir. I don't know of any air traffic controller who knows or cares about this or thinks any lesser or better of India or the UK on account of this.

PS:- I don't mind Alpha Tango or Alpha Victor. It seems to have an "Alpha" element to it.

That is exactly how the Pakistanis thought. AP put them first on the then list of 1947! So they excitedly took it. The very next year numeric-alpha codes started which were listed ahead of 'A'.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Sedate

The change is not done to new callsigns (AT-AW or 8T-8Y) yet, as we all know how our bureaucrats work and think!
...
PS:- I dont mind Alpha Tango or Alpha Victor. It seems to have an "Alpha" element to it.

Don't you think Alpha Whisky would be more in keeping with the nations character, as vividly shown recently?

Sutripta

[Sedate]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Permit me to differ. I do not wish to sound rude but am afraid will end up sounding that way nevertheless.

No sir - I am just a mere mortal searching for the truth. No harm or egos in life at-least at this stage of life.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The only British colony managed by a Viceroy was India. All others were headed by a Governor General. The V in the series has nothing to do with word "Viceroy". Britain took G for Great Britain, B for Britain and then M and V as they were available. Please let's not cling to internet untruths. If this was the case how come people like me never heard of this alleged fact for the first quarter century of our careers.

The term Viceroy was on and off used for Governor-Generals of Australia and Canada. Though may not be much relevant, when we got independence even our then Viceroy became Governor General - I think it was more to do with the level of autonomy for each colony.

From what little I know, M was for "Mainland" and V was for "Viceroy Territories". This is at least what I heard from an old amateur radio operator during my tenure in UK. May be it is an urban legend among old men. But that looked logical if we look at it - All the colonies were starting with V. I agree, VT for India is not Viceroy Territory, But the first letter "V" is the colonial baggage that most colonies carry now a days.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It is for each of us to decide what we feel insecure about. Why stop with the British. There are a thousand practices, foods, words, legal norms that are continuing from Mughal times too. Our great country has a healthy future ahead. I for one would not waste energy grovelling over these issues. English language - let's eliminate that too? Ranks and epaulettes of the Armed Forces, ranks of the IAS, many principles of our constitution. I can make a very long list for anyone who wishes to feel insecure.

Well, change is inevitable. We are changing bit by bit. Things like references letters, attestation, women in military - We are changing things based on the need, pride and values of our country. But, I many not support changes like changing countries name to Bharat unless we name Indian Ocean as Bharat Ocean. This change for a call sign is just a mere matter of timed obsolescence. Stop giving new call signs starting with V and start using already available A series or 8 series.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Your personal view Sir. I don't know of any air traffic controller who knows or cares about this or thinks any lesser or better of India or the UK on account of this.

I completely agree, but if more Indians think like that,wont that be a better case in a democracy.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

That is exactly how the Pakistanis thought. AP put them first on the then list of 1947! So they excitedly took it. The very next year numeric-alpha codes started which were listed ahead of 'A'.

Couldn't agree more. I think they may be looking to get allocation of call signs starting with 1 which I think is still not allocated to anyone.

I dont want to derail the thread from it topic. Thank you for the points.