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Old 5th June 2020, 00:59   #46
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post

The liveries sported by IAF 732s and 737BBJs
I really love this livery. It looks even better on the 777 than it does on the 737. I generally don't think the Indian Air Force symbol affects our democracy traditions much as the Australians, the Belgians, the Swiss etc. have their respective Air Force names written on the aircraft. The image that started this thread (whether photoshopped or not) looks alright, perhaps a little underwhelming but certainly works.

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Originally Posted by ads11 View Post
On a bit of a tangent, I've personally been a fan of the UK using an Airbus A330 MRTT multi-role tanker transport aircraft for it's executive airlift function. I suppose it's the fact that tanker aircraft are of pressing need by the IAF and the Airbus has in multiple iterations of the tender won only to be typically left hanging by our defence mandarins.
The RAF not only uses the A330 MRTTs for executive airlift. Infact, 5 of the 14 aircraft owned by the RAF are available for charter under a company called 'AirTanker Services' and Thomas Cook flew it for a while. So, it was literally possible to fly as a passenger in an actual Tanker aircraft. As for the IAF, I believe they are buying some A330 MRTTs anyway for the indigenous AWACs program which will also have refueling capability but for the tankers themselves, I believe the Airbus A330 MRTT and the Boeing KC-46 Pegasus are competing now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Jet Airways' A330s are rotting in India and they can easily be acquired for conversion into tankers
Indeed, infact the MRTTs are produced at the standard A330 production line Toulouse, France and then flown to Getafe, Spain to be converted into an MRTT. So, converting the Jet airways A330s to tankers is an excellent suggestion since tankers like cargo planes don't necessarily need to be new. I believe the A310 MRTTs used by the Canadian Air Force and the Luffwaffe are also all converted commercial A310s.

Speaking of tankers, will the new Air India One have air to air refueling capability like Air Force one? If it does so, it will most probably be 'Flying boom' design which means the current Ilyushin IL-78 MKI tankers can't refuel them.

Btw, there is a very interesting Wikipedia article on the Air transports of heads of state and governments. Interesting how many smaller European countries are so frugal about the planes they use while the Gulf states go all out (despite having similar or lower GDP per capita) (link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_tr...and_government)
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Old 5th June 2020, 02:11   #47
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Re: Indian Aviation: A Photo Essay

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Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
First of two brand new converted Air India 777-300ERs that will serve as the PM's official planes. Extensively modified with defensive countermeasures and encrypted communication systems. Registration VT-ALW.
As per Flightradar24 the aircrafts are 2 years old, which is mint condition for an aircraft. Also these must have been from the last batch of Boeing 777-300 out of total 23 ordered way back in 2005. I guess the last was delivered to Air India in 2018.


[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
This is to address the urban legend {sorry but actually B.S.} that has been doing the rounds in recent years of VT standing for Viceroy's Territory. This is an internet untruth that gained popularity in the middle years of the last decade. Before that for decades we didn't know this! And the internet has the power and trait to convert every story into the 'truth'. So much so that in 2016 one MP even raised it in Parliament as a national shame (?) and the DGCA and the Aeronautical Society of India had to jump through loops but could find not evidence in their records of this claim. The MP was one Tarun Bajaj.
Probably instigated after watching Arnab Goswami debating about same on Republic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
VT-ALV "Punjab". The other one - VT-ALW was named "Himachal Pradesh".
Jet Airways' A330s are rotting in India and they can easily be acquired for conversion into tankers, but then that won't fill some babu's pockets as shiny new acquisitions would!!!!
The Jet Airways’ aircrafts and all others are assets of their lenders. Currently banks, government would never acquire these as they already have their investments in form of aircrafts with National Carrier and Indian Air Force.

Last edited by Samurai : 5th June 2020 at 18:40. Reason: many grammar errors fixed
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Old 5th June 2020, 03:34   #48
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

This photograph is genuine. It is posted on jetphotos by Andy Egloff who is a respected photographer. If you look, in the linked photograph the lines are not wavy. Not sure how they became like that
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Old 5th June 2020, 09:02   #49
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

Well, Photoshopped or not, There are going to be two official Air India Ones! But the fact that VT-ALW had been sent to Boeing 2 years back for the conversion baffles me. It looks like they were waiting for the sale of Air India so that getting a VVIP aircraft would be justified.
I believe this isn't the final form since it doesn't all the intended attachments (maybe like those of 2000 rupees notes having GPS chip in them)
Maybe the design cues were from the German Govt aircraft!
Looking by the things going around, I believe this aircraft would be landing at least once at each major airport around the globe
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Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-25746_1584719722.jpg  

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Old 5th June 2020, 09:54   #50
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by guywhoclicks View Post
This photograph is genuine. It is posted on jetphotos by Andy Egloff who is a respected photographer. If you look, in the linked photograph the lines are not wavy. Not sure how they became like that
In this photo, one can also see the Lion Capital of Ashoka on the front entry door fore of the engine. The emblem placement does not look photoshopped .

Also the roundel on the underside of the wing. The roundel conforms to the slight shape change of the wing. I can see a slight deflection line passing through the center of the roundel. I doubt anyone would have taken so much effort to photoshop.

I think these pictures were captured during the test flight at Boeing factory. Being a Govt jet retrofitted with lots of safety goodies, i think Boeing would want to do a thorough testing before handing over.
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:14   #51
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by Foxbat View Post
I also think its a fake, but the Mods made a new thread out of it !
There are two pictures on Airliners.net:


@Mods please delete this thread or at least mention its a fake pic!
Some points mentioned by skanchan95 and you does make one suspicious but then I fail to understand why would 2 different people upload Photoshop images from 2 different angles of the same aircraft? And that too when both images are a match to each other?

Moreover, as per my understanding, snaps uploaded on airliner.net are scrutinized and these 2 are aviation photographers so would not be uploading fake Photoshop snaps. Will they? Atleast one of them, Andy Egloff is a respectable photographer.

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-screenshot_20200605100445__01.jpg

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-screenshot_20200605101311.jpg
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:29   #52
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Re: Indian Aviation: A Photo Essay

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Originally Posted by DJ 0909 View Post
As per Flightradar24 the aircraft’s are 2 year old which is mint condition for an aircraft. Also these must have been from the last batch of Boeing 777-300 ers out of total 23 ordered way back in 2005. I guess the last was delivered to Air India in 2018.
The two Air India 773s that are being converted for VIP transport are just about two years old. VT-ALV "Punjab" was delivered to Air India in January 2018 followed by VT-ALW "Rajasthan" in February 2018. The last one from AI's Boeing 777 order - VT-ALX "Sikkim" was delivered in March 2018. Looking at how these 777s were pulled out from AI fleet for VIP conversion, I wonder why wasn't the far more modern fuel efficient 787 considered for the same role.

Here is the full list of 777s operated by Air India (all 777-200s have either been sold or leased back to lessors but all 777-300s are still in service with AI, except ALV & ALW which are being converted into VIP transports)
Quote:
777-222ER VT-AIJ "Neelambari"

777-222ER VT-AIK "Megh Malhaar"

777-222ER VT-AIL "Kalyani"

777-222 VT-AIR "Hansdhwani"

777-237LR VT-ALA "Andhra Pradesh"

777-237LR VT-ALB "Arunachal Pradesh"

777-237LR VT-ALC "Assam"

777-237LR VT-ALD "Gujarat"

777-237LR VT-ALE "Haryana"

777-237LR VT-ALF "Jharkhand"

777-237LR VT-ALG "Kerala"

777-237LR VT-ALH "Maharashtra"

777-337ER VT-ALJ "Bihar"

777-337ER VT-ALK "Chattisgarh"

777-337ER VT-ALL "Goa"

777-337ER VT-ALM "Himachal Pradesh"

777-337ER VT-ALN "Jammu and Kashmir"

777-337ER VT-ALO "Karnataka"

777-337ER VT-ALP "Madhya Pradesh"

777-337ER VT-ALQ "Manipur"

777-337ER VT-ALR "Meghalaya"

777-337ER VT-ALS "Mizoram"

777-337ER VT-ALT "Nagaland"

777-337ER VT-ALU "Orissa"

777-337ER VT-ALV "Punjab"

777-337ER VT-ALW "Rajasthan"

777-337ER VT-ALX "Sikkim"
AIA,AIB,AIG,AIH,AIN,AIO,AIP,- A310
AIC,AID,AIE,AIF,AIM,AIQ,AIS- B747-400
AIT,AIU,AIV,AIW,AIX,AIY,AIZ - ATR-72-600

Last edited by skanchan95 : 5th June 2020 at 10:35. Reason: Typo
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Old 5th June 2020, 10:39   #53
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Here is the full list of 777s operated by Air India (all 777-200s have either been sold or leased back to lessors but all 777-300s are still in service with AI, except ALV & ALW which are being converted into VIP transports)
Not entirely true.

I have personally flown in VT-ALF, VT-ALG, VT-ALH on the DEL-SFO-DEL several times in the last 3-4 years. These are all 777-200LRs One of the best service IMO between India and the West coast.

The 300s are also substituting for the 200s sometimes for the SFO leg although I am not sure how they are managing the extra fuel or load. Perhaps they under load to make the distance.




VT-ALW has indeed flown from Texas to San Bernardino and over to another destination:

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-vtalw1.png

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-vtalw2.png

Last edited by moralfibre : 5th June 2020 at 10:44.
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Old 5th June 2020, 12:31   #54
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Looking at how these 777s were pulled out from AI fleet for VIP conversion, I wonder why wasn't the far more modern fuel efficient 787 considered for the same role.
The 787-800 is the smallest of the dreamliners. Maybe that is why.

Also,FE should be least of the concerns since the 777-300ER will not be flown commercially. Also the efficiency would be more than other operating 777-300ER since the weight load on these VIP jets would be lesser than the commercial counterparts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
Not entirely true.

I have personally flown in VT-ALF, VT-ALG, VT-ALH on the DEL-SFO-DEL several times in the last 3-4 years. These are all 777-200LRs One of the best service IMO between India and the West coast.
Of the three 777-200LR owned by AI, only one is active,VT-ALH. The VT-ALG and VT-ALF are marked as stored. Don't know what it means.
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Old 5th June 2020, 12:44   #55
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Of the three 777-200LR owned by AI, only one is active,VT-ALH. The VT-ALG and VT-ALF are marked as stored. Don't know what it means.
Maybe due to the pandemic it's in lesser use than normal:

VT-ALF did fly last week:

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-vtalf.png

VT-ALG is in storage probably for long term maintenance?

Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders-vtalg.png

In 2009 or so when their fleet was relatively new, AI had put out all the three 777-200LRs (237s to be precise) up for sale. However a little later they discovered their most profitable route to SFO and started full time ops. I may be wrong but this is Air India's most effective route without any competition until United started a service few months ago.

They also did a polar flight recently when tensions with Pakistan closed their normal return route.

We are quite off topic
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Old 5th June 2020, 14:34   #56
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
As for the IAF, I believe they are buying some A330 MRTTs anyway for the indigenous AWACs program which will also have refueling capability but for the tankers themselves, I believe the Airbus A330 MRTT and the Boeing KC-46 Pegasus are competing now.
For the love of all that is holy I sincerely hope the IAF steers clear of the dumpster fire that is the KC-46 programme! India would be better off purchasing the refurbished tankers that the Israeli's are putting to market (these are refurbished Boeing airliners that the Israeli's are considering to augment their own tanker fleet). In fact this refurbishment scheme is so sensible in light of the constant woes of the KC-46, Boeing put Congressional pressure on the Israeli company to prevent them from selling it! Anyone familiar with the usual free pass Israel gets in Congress (heck they're the Only country allowed to tinker with the software on their F-35s at the source code level) should find this extremely surprising.
Quote:
Boeing has blocked Israel Aerospace Industries, also known as IAI, from offering second-hand 767 airliners converted into tanker-transports, which would be a direct threat to its own troublesome 767-based KC-46 Pegasus
(emphasis mine)
Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...er-competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
Speaking of tankers, will the new Air India One have air to air refueling capability like Air Force one? If it does so, it will most probably be 'Flying boom' design which means the current Ilyushin IL-78 MKI tankers can't refuel them.
Unlikely. The current VC-25A will be the last Air Force One's to have the aerial refuelling feature. The Americans are doing away with that capability for the replacement VC-25B, something that's raised concern in US defence circles.

Quote:
A new Pentagon report to Congress reportedly says that the two future Air Force One replacement aircraft, which won't have a mid-air refueling capability, will have an approximate maximum range that is over 1,000 miles less than originally planned. The pair of modified Boeing 747-8is, which will be designated VC-25Bs, will have a number of other reduced capabilities compared to the original requirements, even as it appears that the program's costs have grown.
(emphasis mine)
Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nally-required

I'm unsure any other high profile executive transports have that refuelling capability either. Personally I don't think it's one India would really need as it would add incredibly complex modifications to the airframe that would totally undermine the programme. The 777 airframe never had Any variant that was developed with an aerial refuelling capability so if India wanted that, it would mean we'd have to pay for the development of it and considering the many higher profile and critical programmes Boeing are struggling with currently, we could say goodbye to a new Air India One. Besides, none of India's tanker capability is boom equipped, so you'd likely enter into the need to modify the aerial refuelling tender which has already been delayed for a veritable eternity to add this new requirement. All our combat aircraft are equipped for refuelling via the probe and drogue method so basically there's no need for us to have a boom equipped tanker. Furthermore the current Air Force One is only has that capability because like the Nightwatch USAF airborne command centre (the US SecDef flies on this), it was envisioned that in a nuclear war, having a perpetually airborne command capability was an added level of security. India though surrounded by nuclear armed neighbours, hardly ever reached that perpetual state of paranoia the Cold War generated in the US and USSR that led to over the top military programmes like that whose requirements started spreading into civilian kit.
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Old 5th June 2020, 15:35   #57
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by ads11 View Post

Furthermore the current Air Force One is only has that capability because like the Nightwatch USAF airborne command centre (the US SecDef flies on this), it was envisioned that in a nuclear war, having a perpetually airborne command capability was an added level of security. India though surrounded by nuclear armed neighbours, hardly ever reached that perpetual state of paranoia the Cold War generated in the US and USSR that led to over the top military programmes like that whose requirements started spreading into civilian kit.
Interesting. I think a reason that the new Air Force One has reduced capabilities is probably because Boeing modified an existing B747-8 airframe originally made for Transaero - a Russian airline which folded and hence couldn't take delivery of the airframe while the original plan was to build the plane from the ground up as a VC-25B as with previous versions.

There is an internet theory that Mr. Trump wanted Boeing to build the VC-25B from the existing airframe because building it from the ground up would mean that delivery will be pushed to late 2024, i.e after a possible second term and hence he will never be able to use it. Offcourse, it might just be a silly rumor and costs could have been the main factor.
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Old 5th June 2020, 16:06   #58
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
Interesting. I think a reason that the new Air Force One has reduced capabilities is probably because Boeing modified an existing B747-8 airframe originally made for Transaero - a Russian airline which folded and hence couldn't take delivery of the airframe while the original plan was to build the plane from the ground up as a VC-25B as with previous versions.

There is an internet theory that Mr. Trump wanted Boeing to build the VC-25B from the existing airframe because building it from the ground up would mean that delivery will be pushed to late 2024, i.e after a possible second term and hence he will never be able to use it. Offcourse, it might just be a silly rumor and costs could have been the main factor.
So finding the relatively unused Transaero airframes was an easy way to keep the costs down compared to a brand new airframe, though in reality it didn't save much because the extent of the modifications required for the VC25B are such that you're essentially gutting the plane and rebuilding a lot from the ground up. So it's just the shell and major components like the engines that'll remain relatively unchanged.

The programme end date was never going to fall within Trump's second term, in fact it's almost always been tradition that the president who oversees the change in platform never is around to take a ride in the new one. To cut a long story short the programme costs had escalated Massively and by the time Trump came along he saw an opportunity to use his vaunted "negotiation skills" to barter a better deal. He didn't really but managed to convey to his base that he Did in fact make significant savings when in fact the savings were the decisions taken before he came to power, one of which was using those existing airframes.

If you want to take a deep dive in the topic, Tyler Rogoway and Joe Trevithick at The War Zone have written extensively on the subject and really breaks it down. Here are just a few to set you going:
  1. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-class-carrier
  2. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ing-capability
  3. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ussian-airline
If you wanted more, Marcus Weisberger at Defence One is another sound voice on the topic.

So given the cautionary tale of the ballooning expense of the replacement Air Force One programme, I would hope that India hasn't fallen gullible of basically ticking a bunch of boxes on the options list because it'll be a bad bad look to throw around largesse on this (albeit critical) mission when so many pressing operational needs of the IAF are still lacking.
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Old 5th June 2020, 16:14   #59
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by dragracer567 View Post
Interesting. I think a reason that the new Air Force One has reduced capabilities is probably because Boeing modified an existing B747-8 airframe originally made for Transaero - a Russian airline which folded and hence couldn't take delivery of the airframe while the original plan was to build the plane from the ground up as a VC-25B as with previous versions.
I am not so sure, the range is well below any known 747-800 variant.

So I suspect there must be other reasons behind this. An a given airframe/engine combination the biggest factor impacting range is weight. It is hard to imagine that the total weight on this AirForce one is more than on your typical fully loaded up commercial 747-800. They take far less passengers and bagage. But of course their are all sorts of additional systems.

Maybe due to their requirements they did away with the centre tanks? That is not a weight issue, but a volume of fuel issue, which obviously reduces range. Taking away the centre tanks means you have a large volume of space available for all sorts of equipment and Airforce one has lots of extra systems compared to a regular 747-8.

The other thing is electrical power requirements. Airforce one must have much, much more electrical power requirement than a regular 747-8.

Not sure how they deal with it. You can not run the APU at higher altitudes (unless they found a way to modify). Electrical power, whether it is provides by the APU or via the generators on the main engines, does lead to a higher fuel usage and therefor less range. But not this much.

Is anybody familiar with how they cope with these high electrical power requirements on these VIP planes?

Modifiying an existing airframe for aerial refuelling is an absolute nightmare. It can and has been done: Think Raytheon/Embraer AWACS. (My brother in law was involved and he told me some interesting stories.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 5th June 2020 at 16:16.
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Old 5th June 2020, 17:29   #60
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Re: Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The other thing is electrical power requirements. Airforce one must have much, much more electrical power requirement than a regular 747-8.

Is anybody familiar with how they cope with these high electrical power requirements on these VIP planes?
Got an answer for you on the APU and power usage front front -
Quote:
The new presidential aircraft will also feature a pair of auxiliary power units, or APUs, as is the case on VC-25As, than a single unit as found on the standard 747-8i. This will provide the necessary power to run the jet’s much more expansive communications and other missions systems on the ground without the need for an external power source, as well as providing backup power in the air. There will also be specialized, but unspecified modifications to the “environmental controls, electrical power, water management, fuel system, and engines,” which Boeing is best suited to perform, according to the justification notice.
(emphasis mine)
REF:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...cutting-claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I am not so sure, the range is well below any known 747-800 variant.
So I suspect there must be other reasons behind this. An a given airframe/engine combination the biggest factor impacting range is weight. It is hard to imagine that the total weight on this AirForce one is more than on your typical fully loaded up commercial 747-800. They take far less passengers and bagage. But of course their are all sorts of additional systems.
AF1 is basically hardened against all sorts of EMP pulses and other radiation you can expect in doomsday scenarios such as nuclear war to concerted signals jamming. Pretty much after 9/11 it became glaringly obvious that although AF1 could stay aloft with President Bush for a long duration, it had nowhere near the stable and extensive communications features the President needed to keep in the loop and manage the situation (thus you had Cheney running a lot of the show from the bunker at the White House in the immediate aftermath). Subsequent upgrades to the existing AF1 naturally beefed up and resolved these issues. Further more besides the extensive executive suite and amenities, conference rooms and press pack area, AF1 has a fully functioning galley aboard as well and these are just the publicly facing features we know of so all of that will absolutely add up to the weight. This in turn will likely cap the range though General Dunford the previous Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in Senate testimony pointed out that the new VC-25Bs will have 3 hours of extra time on station though not near the nearly unlimited that aerial refuelling hypothetically presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Modifiying an existing airframe for aerial refuelling is an absolute nightmare.
Precisely. This has led to the bizarre scenario that without aerial refuelling, in a true disaster scenario such as a nuclear war, the President and his staff will end up using the replacement USAF airborne command post aircraft, the current Nightwatch variant of the EC-4B variant of the 747. That in turn is proposed to be a big twin based on something like a 767 or 777 platform to save costs and merge the platform for Air Force Two (the VP and other Cabinet members travel aircraft usually - or the one POTUS uses when AF1 is too big for regional airports).
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