[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by mmxylorider

It would have been a a steal to buy one of the 380 that everyone else is offloading, but it does not have cargo carrying facility and reconfiguring would have been quite expensive. In addition, it requires specifically classified runways to operate.

As Jeroen pointed out, ETOPS rarely figures since the reliability of engines today is so much more and for VIP flights, the routing will take this into account for possible emergency landing places.

I am not aware of the A380 requiring special runways? Could you elaborate. They do need special terminals and need more taxi clearance.

ETOPS always figures on any commercial flight. It needs to be taken into consideration for every flight plan. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a problem caused due to ETOP requirements.

If this plane operates as a civilian airliner it will need to adhere to ETOPS. If it is operates as a military jet, all bets are off I guess.

Jeroen

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not aware of the A380 requiring special runways? Could you elaborate.

I'm assuming the reference is to the Code F runway requirement? India has only 4 (DEL, BOM, HYD & BLR) approved by the DGCA. MAA & CCU are also capable with the steady upgrades but not certified as Code F yet.

Much better to have a 777 and even better to have stuck to a narrow-body

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Attachment 2062361

Is this a stretcher? What are so many ports on the wall next to it?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

I'm assuming the reference is to the Code F runway requirement? India has only 4 (DEL, BOM, HYD & BLR) approved by the DGCA. MAA & CCU are also capable with the steady upgrades but not certified as Code F yet.

Code F is not a runway specification as such I believe? It is an ICAO airport infrastructure designation I believe. It is based on wingspan and outer main landing gear width. Which tends to not be a problem for the runways, but can be a problem for the taxiway and tarmacs and manoeuvring around terminal buildings etc.

According to Airbus if I recall they have had many approvals to use the A380 on Code E airports as well (smaller wide body requirements). Still the A380 has limitations on which airports it can accommodate. Not so much on the runways, (in fact due to its 20 wheel landing gear it has a surprising low pavement loading.

Jeroen

[mmxylorider]

Code F certification (to accommodate A380) is given subject to ability to handle wingspans and taxi-way clearance. This is documented on multiple sites as well. A lot of code E runways will handle A380 but subject to exception approvals.

IMHO, the 787 would have been more suited to this function, albeit with a lesser range (offset with reduced take off weight) but with better efficiency, cabin pressure etc.

Moot point, now that the aircrafts being delivered. What I am curious about is their usage domestically within India. Will they be used for travel between the metros (which can accommodate an77W) or stick to Air Force Embraers

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by mmxylorider

Moot point, now that the aircrafts being delivered. What I am curious about is their usage domestically within India. Will they be used for travel between the metros (which can accommodate an77W) or stick to Air Force Embraers

Generally, the 737s are used for travel between metros and neighboring countries. The Embraers are primarily used by cabinet ministers (Like MEA).

[avishar]

Originally Posted by Cessna182

Just curious- is there any reason why such a large aircraft has to be used for the PM, when smaller private planes are being used globally by many corporates? I don't understand the aviation business at all, my knowledge is based on google searches, hence I request for inputs on correcting the following statement.

A good private plane can cost between 30 to 800 cr and many industrialists in India use these. Maybe the range is too low for international travel, but could fuel capacity enhancements be made for them instead of buying a billion plus dollar airplane? Especially at a time when even the armed forces and the air force are struggling to upgrade their equipment (India remains one of the few countries to still have Mig 21s).

You know who else has a ton of Mig-21s? The Chinese airforce. Infact as a % of the their active inventory, they form a larger chunk than the % of Mig-21s in the Indian Air force.


Well its very simple why the PMO needs a new and a bigger plane. Because whoever the Prime Minister is, he/she is not an industrialist. So the security concerns will be much higher.

The older 747-400s were first ordered for Air India back in the early 90s. Later they were transferred to the PM's detail to be used as the Air India One. However, the 747s are at the end of their life, they are close to 30 years old now. And they are expensive to operate plus spend a lot of time in maintaince. Therefore, a replacement has to be found.

It had to be big enough to carry the PMO's security detail, the press which travels with him, any bespoke equipment that need to be used in the other country like arms etc, the ministers, the bureaucrats and diplomats that travel along for meets like G20 etc. It had to have long range since refuelling stops are a security issue and the aircraft also needs to have secure communication equipment and stuff like missile warning and chaff dispensers.

These two aircrafts are going to be used for a long time, atleast 25 years. So that is five full terms for an Indian head of state, whoever they might be in the future. If you are amortising the cost over 25 years, it isnt that much.

Plus India is expected to be the third largest economy much before the end of this decade and will be one of three biggest economies in the world along with China and United States for a long time. Therefore, the security needs and the logistical needs of any Indian head of state will be high, Which cannot be accomodated in a Gulfstream. We are practically the only country which seems to be in war with two nuclear-power countries, all the time!

Therefore for the aircraft the options could have been the 787-9, A350 or 777-300ER or even the new 777X.

But luckily we had slots for the 777-300ER already with us. It was part of the mega deal in 2005 when Air India signed up for 68 aircraft. That deal included 15 777-300ERs (which at that time was a brand new model variant of the 777). The 777W (which the 777-300ER was more commonly known as) had really long range, great cargo capacity and could still seat 350 - 450 passengers. It was clearly aimed at the Jumbo Jet market since it would be cheaper to operate both from a running costs point of few and maintaince point of few than the 747s since it had two huge but very fuel efficienct engines without sacrificing on the seat capacity nor cargolifting ability.

However soon after that deal, the global economy crashed in 2007 and Air India was left holding a bill that ran into billions and a order of 15 giant planes which they could not fill up. So they deferred many of the orders and in the end took delivery of the just 13 777Ws over the next few years. They did not want the last two aircraft and which perfectly fit in with the SPG's need for new planes and also a natural replacement for a 747-400.

It was also a win-win deal since frankly there must have been a lot of discount price associated with those planes. Airlines rarely pay list price for planes, discounts can be as huge at 30 to 40%. For a deal that was signed in 2005 (which anyway must have had some sweetner added back then), Boeing would have been happy to get those slots confirmed for the 777 since production of the 777W is close to ending. So instead of negotiating with Boeing or Airbus for a fresh order of 2 planes where the PMO would not have been able to push for discounts, picking up those 777Ws was clever.

[skanchan95]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this. On the tail fin ofvthe VIP 777, there seems to be a second serial number if one looks carefully. It looks like it is K7066 in Grey.



IAF VIP 737s too have/had K-series serial numbers. Does that mean the aircraft will lose its civilian VT registration and acquire K-series military serial number? Or is it the other way around that it was meant to be K-7066 but it was decided to retain its civilian registration instead?

[airbus]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Does that mean the aircraft will lose its civilian VT registration and acquire K-series military serial number? Or is it the other way around that it was meant to be K-7066 but it was decided to retain its civilian registration instead?

That's a very minute observation skanchan95

I have found below information on www.planespotters.net, maybe it's going to get K-series registration number as it will be operated by IAF.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by airbus

I have found below information on www.planespotters.net, maybe it's going to get K-series registration number as it will be operated by IAF.

Great Find!!! Checked further on planespotters and found that the second VIP 777 (VT-ALW) will be K-7067.

[airbus]

Second aircraft also reached India - news.

The second B-777 VVIP's aircraft, Air India One landed at the Delhi airport on Saturday. Air India One aircraft is exclusively for the President, Vice President and Prime Minister. The first of the two VVIP aircraft Air India One arrived in India earlier this month.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by airbus

maybe it's going to get K-series registration number as it will be operated by IAF.

Which means it is not subject to general aviation rules and regulations. (e.g. ICAO etc), so there is no real (international) oversight anymore on the state of these planes?

Air forces, the world over, make up their own regulations!! Which if you are operating fighters and bombers might be fine, but this is still a plane carrying a lot of (non-military) people .

Do we really approve?

Jeroen

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by airbus

it's going to get K-series registration number as it will be operated by IAF.

Somewhat OT but still related to the K-series serial numbers of the IAF.

The IL-76s and An-32s too have/had K-series serial numbers. Many of them have been re-serialled with an additional Alphabet. For e.g IL-76s are being re-serialled with KI-series serials and An-32s KA-series. May be the re-serialling signifies upgraded airframes and could also mean to distinguish the serials from VIP aircraft( which also have K-series serials).

IL-76MD K-2878 in 2007


As KI-2878 in 2010


An-32B K-3067 in 2017


As KA-3067 in 2019

[SmartCat]

There is buzz (speculation) among defence analysts on twitter that both aircraft will have strategic command & control system on board. This is much needed because India has a no-first-use policy.

In case of an all-out war, the aircraft will be one of the safest hideouts for the political leadership.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

In case of an all-out war, the aircraft will be one of the safest hideouts for the political leadership.

I guess that depends a bit on the capabilities of your enemies as well, does it not. I am no expert, but once your enemy knows the president of a country is up in his/her plane, would it not become a prime target? No matter what, bring it down?

Yes, these planes have some defence capabilities and yes, there will an army of other aircraft swarming around them. But at the end of the day it is just another airliner and it doesn’t take that much to bring them down, but you need to get something close of course.

I thought the Americans would also rely on moving the president to one of these operation centre underneath the rockies?

Jeroen