[raghu.bramha]

Exciting stuff and excellent write-up. A sigh of relief after a tumultuous procurement tussle. Hope this shuts up our next door neighbors.

On a side note, I am not very comfortable with an article detailing a country's defenses on any form of platforms. Call me old fashioned, but i feel it's unnecessary risk putting out secrets.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by swarnava.ch

Your post answers my main question, actually I came across a thread by a Chinese Think Tank which mentioned Rafale is a failure product and no one buys it and India purchasing the same was a misstep.

The Rafale is a failure product, certainly, but in the commercial context. The Rafale is a mis-priced product, but largely due to the lack of economies of scale.

I've read accounts of how the Swiss airforce and many other airforces who gave the Rafale full marks ahead of the entire playing field (4++ gen aircraft, no 5th gen aircraft, i.e.)

But the fact remains - when push comes to shove in the high altitude Himalayan battlefields, it is the Chinese aircraft which are likely to come a cropper. Let's remember that the French excel at making jet engines and how the Mirage 2000 did exceedingly well in exactly the same rarefied air in the Himalayan region. The Chinese' supposed Stealth aircraft has a really questionable engine which will likely fail up there. They can copy designs, but they can't copy the metallurgy that goes into making proper jet engines.

[DevilzzzzOwn]

Excellent piece as per the norms. Yours as well as Team BHP's.

Finally I am glad I pay huge taxes. Any chance we get to see it in action, say at Bangalore Air Show?

Also, a Humble request. Any chance we could get a comparo like we get for cars? That will be the Cherry on the icing.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Its great 1980s technology. But if it ain't stealth, it just ain't happening.

Not sure why you think a fighter that has just been manufactured is a 40 year old model. Electorics, Radars and weapons have been continuously developing and improving. The F-22 first flew in 1997, would you says its 1990s technology? The F-15 first flew 48 years ago in 1972, but the USAF just placed an order for new F-15s:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020...he-new-f-15ex/

Originally Posted by swarnava.ch

Your post answers my main question, actually I came across a thread by a Chinese Think Tank which mentioned Rafale is a failure product and no one buys it and India purchasing the same was a misstep. I can understand the bias in the tone but the interesting question definitely was why indeed not many other countries have purchased this bird.

Maybe a case of grapes are sour? No one except the Russians are willing to sell China combat aircraft and if Chinese technology is so superior and stealth fighter so advance why are they buying non-stealth fighters from Russia?

https://thediplomat.com/2019/04/russ...jets-to-china/

Originally Posted by locusjag

The Rafale is a failure product, certainly, but in the commercial context. The Rafale is a mis-priced product, but largely due to the lack of economies of scale.

I've read accounts of how the Swiss airforce and many other airforces who gave the Rafale full marks ahead of the entire playing field (4++ gen aircraft, no 5th gen aircraft, i.e.)

In case of sales of military aircraft there is always a lot of politics involved especially if a US manufacturer is involved. The US government often cajoles, threatens (like sanctions on India for S400 purchases from Russia) or provides incentives for weapons contracts to go its way. Many times they are free or hugely subsidised like the case of Israel or PAF for supporting the US in wars.

Also many times weapons sales are for many systems(aircraft, helicopters, missiles) together which the US can provide in bulk and at a lower cost like for Saudi Arabia. That works out cheaper than getting all of them from different countries and helps interoperability of the equipment.

[DiMaGo]

Thank you @Narayan sir for enlightening an enthusiast [but a noob] like me with various terminologies and the avionics of this amazing new Bird in our Flying Force. I was bored of the routine work and opened T-Bhp to this superb post.

I, however, have few questions:
a.) Is this a better buy than EuroFighter Typhoon?
b.) Is there any other reason [apart from Politics] that Indian Govt./IAF did not engage more with the French for our Flying Figther needs earlier? [apart from Mirage]. I have learnt off late that the Frech are far more reliable than British, US and even Russia when it comes to honouring defence deals.

[MMV]

Very well written article and detailed too, hatsoff!
As you had mentioned HAMMER was included much later considering geopolitical situation , how does it compare with SPICE, currently integrated with Mirage fighters. Maybe for later lot of MMRCAs IAF might go for SPICE, any views

[psispace]

Thank you V. Narayanji for this wonderful mini encyclopedia on the Rafale.

The pictorial representations and explanations were really informative and easy to grasp. Almost like a powerpoint presentation, unlike your previous threads which were incredibly detailed (which isn't a bad thing anyway). It sometimes took me three days to finish those threads.

Some comparisons to the established players like the F18 gave some good perceptives on its capabilities.

It is amazing how some of these aircraft can act as 'command centers' giving tactical control over multiple aircrafts in its group and ( i believe ) land based systems. I thought these were capabilities of only aircraft like the F35 Lightning. Please correct me if I am wrong (Or no comments if thats' classified).

Pilots of these aircraft have indeed to be of a very high calibre and mental make up. I cannot imagine the stress they will have to go through to make decisions on the go when multiple lives and millions of dollars worth of weapons are at stake.

Although it may take a while to integrate our existing weapons with the Rafale's systems, I'm glad, we seem to be going the right way with this procurement.

Thank you for lighting up my day with this thread.

Eagerly awaiting more like these. They light up the inner child in me from a time when I wanted to be a pilot or an aeronautical engineer.

[CaptainBrijesh]

Yes, its absolutely a better purchase than the Eurofighter Typhoon. Reasons for Rafale better than typhoon are as follows:

1. When the Advanced Tactical Fighter Program started, France, Britain, Germany and all other Europian Countries were on the same page. During the development phase, france didn't like the direction of the project as it was going towards the Air-Superiority fighter framework. As france wanted to develop the single aircraft which it can fly as Naval version also. At this point, Rafale was born. As Indian Navy has only one Fighter which is Mig-29, this could open new prospects for Indian Navy also. (In future, operating Naval versions of Rafale from our Aircraft carrier Decks.)

2.In the case of India, If we would have bought Typhoons then it could have been Tactical Disaster as New typhoons will have role overlapping (Role of Air-superiority or Air-Dominance) with our Sukhoi-30 MKI. No point in buying different aircrafts for the same role as per some technical reports.

3. Another thing which infuenced our decision to buy a Multi-Role Fighter is "The era of Beyond Visual Range Warfare" is diminishing the clear cut separate requirements of Air Dominance Fighters. As most of the War will be fought between fighters outside the visual ranges of Pilots, no point in buying aircraft with Air-Dominance & Dog-fight capabilities. Rather than its better to opt for an All Rounder Package. (Another advantage is that Rafale is no lesser in delivery of Beyond Visual Range Weapons, Win-Win Situation).

4. As per the historical backgrounds with combined weapons programs, Future new weapons integrations, modifications and buying may require lengthy procedures in case of Eurofighter Typhoon as it involves many countries. (Example of F-35 Lightening-II in this case).

5. French doesn't mix politics with its defence contracts. (They take contracts as pure Business). You can take reference of Kargil War, at that time Indian Defence Forces faced problems in acquiring data and weapons due to mix up of defence contract support and international politics of some other countries.

6. Rafale's weapons are some of the best available in International Defence Markets i.e. MICA Air to Air Missile, METEOR Long Range Air to Air Missile, SCALP, HAMMER etc. Without the Best Weapons, Fighter is like Body without Soul.

7. Rafale's Electronic Warfare Suite named "SPECTRA" is one of the best out there available.

So many points regarding India Specific Upgrades also. You can also search about them Online.

All in all, its a Costly but Worthy and Much Required upgrade for Indian Air Force.

[arijit_chat2006]

This is an awesome post!! Very informative and detailed, I must say. Kudos Narayan sir.

[download2live]

Wonderful thread.
My two cents: None of our neighbors have this plane. So they will still be guessing about its capabilities. Remember that China has a version of Sukhoi.

I am so frustrated with delays in purchase of planes. I still remember the excitement when Sukhoi were bought and when they landed. Too bad that Rafale will take at least 5 years to be really a part of IAF in meaningful numbers.

[Shwet]

I think the Rafale brings in a whole set of new capabilities that were not there in IAF in terms of technology. It represents a quantum leap in avionics , situational awareness and sensor fusion. The main benefits are that it's a single unit with all the added modifications being done by Dassault itself. Unlike the SU-30 MKI which has a lot of modifications added on by many partners, the Rafale benefits from single integration by one dedicated partner.

The Sukhoi has lots of Israeli systems, it has Russian systems and it also has a lot of Indian modifications built in , the trouble is that the Russians have balked on the issue of sharing source codes and then the problem comes when one system doesn't talk to each other. It has been largely resolved but then its engines are high maintenance and at any given time you just have about 50% of the fleet available.

There was a program to upgrade the Sukhoi as Super Sukhois with an AESA radar from ZHUK Phazotoron , though i guess the govt is just fed up of Russians playing funny by demanding a lot more money than what it is worth for. The Rafale has an Advanced Thales AESA and its just a Generation ahead of anything that China Possesses. Western AESA Radar technology is two generations ahead of anything that Russia has , China has just been copying Russian designs and less said about their expertise in designing an AESA radar the better.

To put things in perspective , even the Eurofighter Typhoon struggles to integrate a functional AESA Radar, so in that comparison the Rafale is just a Generation ahead of the Chinese J-20 or even the Russian SU-35 which China possesses in small numbers.As a Platform its much more advanced than the old Block 50 F-16's that PAF has, so Air Marshal Dhanoa (retd) was correct in his assessment about this plane being superior to anything in the close vicinity. One other factor about the Rafale is that it can supercruise at Mach 1.4 without using afterburners. This Capability has only been displayed by three Aircraft worldwide : The F-22, F-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

However to maintain a substantial qualitative edge India needs to ink the MMRCA contract of 114 fighters quickly and licence build Rafale in India.

[fhdowntheline]

The problem with the comparisons that are put out in the general social media is that they are so mediocre in terms of depth of knowledge that any one who can spell "fighter plane" now waxes forth on the Rafale's capabilities vis-a-vis its counterparts in rival nations.

That said, now that the initial euphoria is over and the first birds have flown in, I think the government must dial down the hype a bit as more deliveries come through and the plane goes through its paces in the operational theatre.

[akhil_007]

There was news in the early part of the decade that Dassault,as company,might shut down due to lack of substantial business to keep it profitable. Until Egypt/Qatar order few aircrafts. Was is not a good idea for India to buy the company itself, including all patents and ip? It could still function like Tata and Jaguar.
Rafale would cost way cheaper and maybe Tejas could use some of the knowledge from aquisition

Apologies in advance if my understanding or analogy makes no sense.

[Jeroen]

Thanks for another excellent write up. Really enjoyed reading it, very interesting.

I would not necessarily call the Rafale a beautiful plane. But it is certainly a good and interestingly looking plane in its own right. Visually much more pleasing than some of the other modern planes we have seen the last decade.

The French have a well earned reputation when it comes to both civil and military aviation. I do hope the IAF put a clause in their contract that all documentation and manuals need full 1:1 English translation.

I have burned myself badly once on this aspect of dealing with a high tech French company!

Jeroen

[Ford5]

A nice jet. We need more of these, and properly networked combat squadrons like PAF and PLAF have. Not sure if our SDR is up and running, it'll be a quite an ask homing in Mig 29, Mig 21, (since it's not being retired anytime soon), Su, Mirage 2k, Rafale and Tejas if need be for short stand-off purposes in the next 4 - 6 years.

I don't wish to digress, but the Chinese jamming capability is something terrifying. Even the PAF with their european Saab did something audacious.

Nonetheless the Rafale is really a good addition for the IAF barring the cost ofcourse and giving the best of the best of the IAF a shot at it will soothe frayed nerves in due course.