[brohanv]

The specialised knowledge that has no doubt been acquired through years of diligence is astounding. Thank you for taking the time to curate this write-up and bringing a marvel of engineering and a machine of national pride closer to common man!

[V.Narayan]

Rafale M selected by the Indian Navy?

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...ml#post5454379 (Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers)

Link to post in the Naval Aviation thread on the possible selection of the Rafale M for the Indian Navy in preference to the Boeing Super Hornet. From a logistics, training and independence point of view this is the right decision, IMHO.

[V.Narayan]

https://idrw.org/iaf-is-reconsiderin...repeat-orders/

This news magazine article seems to indicate a thinking in MoD to order some more Rafale jet fighters. Not a bad idea. A better one would be why not license build/assemble the aircraft here instead of wasting another decade and a half of the IAF trying to select yet another aircraft for the 114 order. I do not know enough about procurement processes for such large orders and where does the blame lie on the almost criminal delays the nation faces due to them. Is it the bureaucrats, is it the IAF not freezing their ask or defining it in clear and complete enough terms, is it the accounts guys or the politicos. The cos is paid by the tax payer and young pilots who lose their lives flying ageing machines.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

https://idrw.org/iaf-is-reconsiderin...repeat-orders/

This news magazine article seems to indicate a thinking in MoD to order some more Rafale jet fighters. Not a bad idea. A better one would be why not license build/assemble the aircraft here instead of wasting another decade and a half of the IAF trying to select yet another aircraft for the 114 order. I do not know enough about procurement processes for such large orders and where does the blame lie on the almost criminal delays the nation faces due to them. Is it the bureaucrats, is it the IAF not freezing their ask or defining it in clear and complete enough terms, is it the accounts guys or the politicos. The cos is paid by the tax payer and young pilots who lose their lives flying ageing machines.

I think the best immediate/stop gap solution will be the IAF procuring another 2-3 squadrons of the Rafale along with the Navy order, directly from France. Dassault has a big order backlog, but a sizeable order from India will mean that they can budget another production lie with immediate effect as well as enable India to negotiate a better deal.

A new Dassault or MMRCA winner led conglomerate setting up a local production line + domestic supplier base in India will take too long and perhaps deliveries coincide with the future iterations of the Tejas, AMCA, TEDBF etc... It's pointless!

In my couch commentator opinion, stop gap measure of additional squadrons directly from France, and look for additional HAL orders to fill the remaining gap with domestic solutions.

GOI needs to keep convincing the defence leadership to place more trust in domestic solutions. If we keep prolonging this move under the assumption of making the move when 'domestic options' are upto the mark, they'll never get there.

[V.Narayan]

It seems the Cabinet Committee on security has closed its decision in favour of the Rafale M for the Indian Navy – 26 in all. High time too, I’d say. Versus the F-18 it is the right choice IMHO. I wonder when a formal announcement & contract signing will follow.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...y-2558326.html

File photo of a French Navy Rafale landing their carrier Charles de Gaulle having just trapped the arrestor wire

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Versus the F-18 it is the right choice IMHO. I wonder when a formal announcement & contract signing will follow.

Agreed, the French are more trustworthy than the Americans. You never know when the next trigger happy American President gets up one day on the wrong side of the bed and decides to sanction India for daring to say No to the Americans!!

But, I would be curious to know what happened to statements like these when the two were being evaluated -
*Rafale will not fit in the Vikrant's elevators.
*Being able to fold it's wings, the F/A-18E/F has a major and potentially match winning advantage over the Rafale.
*The Rafale's wings will have to removed before using the Vikrant's elevators for storage/ servicing.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

*The Rafale's wings will have to removed before using the Vikrant's elevators for storage/ servicing.

Very odd.

How will that work? Removing wings, unless specifically designed so, is a major operation I would think?

Carrier aircraft live most of their time in the hangars underneath the deck. The main reason being out on the deck all the time gives horrendous corrosion problems. Seawater, spray and aluminium are just about the worst combination you can think off.

Jeroen

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It seems the Cabinet Committee on security has closed its decision in favour of the Rafale M for the Indian Navy – 26 in all. High time too, I’d say. Versus the F-18 it is the right choice IMHO. I wonder when a formal announcement & contract signing will follow.

Finally! I was getting worried that this would get delayed like other contracts. The Navy needed these aircraft yesterday (worse for the IAF).

However, I wonder if this could still get bogged down in price negotiations as happened with the contract for 36 Rafales for the IAF. IIRC, the government decided to go for direct purchase in 2015 but the orders were placed around 2018 (again, I'm not 100% sure about the dates).

With the order backlog for the Rafale, likely India would be at the back of the queue as well - unless the French are enticed by further orders for the Air Force.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Very odd.

How will that work? Removing wings, unless specifically designed so, is a major operation I would think?

As many would be aware, unlike the F/A-18,the Rafale M lacks a folding wing mechanism.

The Rafale M's wingspan width is more than the what the lifts on the INS Vikrant can accommodate (the Vikrant's lifts were designed keeping the MiG-29K in mind). The wingspan is 10.90 m, while the width of the Vikrant's lifts is 10 m. The F/A-18E/F with folded wings(which reduced it's 'wingspan' to around 9.4 m) is a tight squeeze but could fit in them.

As per an article posted more than an year ago, the French seemed to have resolved the problem on the Rafale M by offering this solution:

The French side has also resolved the problem, with a solution that requires removing a part of the wing of the Rafale before it can fit the carrier elevator. It is important to move carrier-borne jets into the hangar for maintenance works as well as to create space for other equipment and aircraft on the flight deck.

and this rather impractical "remove wings" solution/claim was posted last year in an article (Post no. 366) in the Indian Naval Aviation thread - Link (Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers)

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Carrier aircraft live most of their time in the hangars underneath the deck. The main reason being out on the deck all the time gives horrendous corrosion problems. Seawater, spray and aluminium are just about the worst combination you can think off.

Exactly, and that is why I am curious to know how they are going to make this Rafale+Vikrant combination work practically, assuming all of the above to be true.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

But, I would be curious to know what happened to statements like these when the two were being evaluated -
*Rafale will not fit in the Vikrant's elevators.
*Being able to fold it's wings, the F/A-18E/F has a major and potentially match winning advantage over the Rafale.
*The Rafale's wings will have to removed before using the Vikrant's elevators for storage/ servicing.

No one on this thread knows the actual dimensions of the elevators. I presume the Navy does!! We don't even know how much of this talk is amateur speculation and how much is misinformation by Boeing. So, if the IN has concluded, after trials, that the Rafale fits one way or the other I would take that as a given.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I wonder when a formal announcement & contract signing will follow.

When the govt. can schedule the ideal newsworthy moment with enough fanfare. I am not questioning the move or being political here, but that's the way they like to do things especially to reiterate the close defence partnerships with France. But flying to France for a shake hand with Macron will not work currently because France is literally on fire due to mass protests against pension reforms. One area where both governments can closely work together is getting reforms passed without starting revolutions!

[ads11]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

But, I would be curious to know what happened to statements like these when the two were being evaluated -
*Rafale will not fit in the Vikrant's elevators.
*Being able to fold it's wings, the F/A-18E/F has a major and potentially match winning advantage over the Rafale.
*The Rafale's wings will have to removed before using the Vikrant's elevators for storage/ servicing.

Agreed, it'll be interesting to see what becomes of these issues. I don't think it's misinformation to say the Vikrant elevators are tiny and thus a major limiting factor. Way I see it, there would have to be a compromise either way given the fact that fixing the elevators would only be a costly modification for when Vikrant comes in for its first major overhaul in a few years. I wonder if plans for this are already being drawn up because it really would be a significant operational hurdle if the only way to get the Rafale M to fit was to take off segments of the wings - hardly what you want for operational tempo. Compared to bankrolling a modification for folding wings for the Rafale M (which would be $$$ given the small order number), it probably makes more sense to at least go down the expensive route of modifying the elevators. That way the money stays in house so to speak.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

However, I wonder if this could still get bogged down in price negotiations as happened with the contract for 36 Rafales for the IAF. IIRC, the government decided to go for direct purchase in 2015 but the orders were placed around 2018 (again, I'm not 100% sure about the dates).

With the order backlog for the Rafale, likely India would be at the back of the queue as well - unless the French are enticed by further orders for the Air Force.

I think the position in the order queue is a very important point that gets missed in the Indian context. When the first Rafale order was being mooted, the French desperately needed an export win for the jet. In the time since, they've had more than a fair few orders from various operators to fill out their order books so India is no longer in the driving seat when it comes to any negotiations to that effect.

Originally Posted by shortbread

When the govt. can schedule the ideal newsworthy moment with enough fanfare. I am not questioning the move or being political here, but that's the way they like to do things especially to reiterate the close defence partnerships with France. But flying to France for a shake hand with Macron will not work currently because France is literally on fire due to mass protests against pension reforms. One area where both governments can closely work together is getting reforms passed without starting revolutions!

Haha, I think the real problem in both those instances is trying to ram through consequential reforms without putting it to the floor of the chamber for debate (something both Macron & Modi are guilty of). I do agree though that touting a defence deal won't really help douse the flames in terms of public anger in France, this might end up being a low key announcement possibly.