[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by Tassem

Landing gears didn't work.
Ex IAF pilot made three rounds of airport to empty the fuel which saved plane from catching fire. That’s why there was no smoke seen coming from the crashed aircraft.
He turned off the engine right before the crash.
He belly landed after the 3rd iteration.
The right wing was ruptured.
The Pilot martyred but saved life of 180 co-passengers.

This leaves a lot to be answered. Hopefully the CVR and FDR will give details about this. If this is indeed true, then it needs further investigation. Have the CVR and FDR been recovered?

Edit - Recovered.



The FDR and CVR have been recovered as per this tweet by Mr. Hardeep Singh Puri, Civil Aviation Minister of India.


The aircraft broke into 3 parts, cockpit and tail end being the smaller ones when you look at the daytime snaps.

[adrian]

There is news going on that it was hydraulic failure and the Pilot attempted a belly landing after dumping fuel. Salute to the brave soul and RIP to all the deceased.


Just a thing that came to mind : why isn't the runway terminated in a gradual descending gradient instead of a cliff ?

Edit : I mean the zone just after the runway (don't know the technical term - buffer zone ?.)

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by adrian

Just a thing that came to mind : why isn't the runway terminated in a gradual descending gradient instead of a cliff ?

Edit : I mean the zone just after the runway (don't know the technical term - buffer zone ?.)

The Calicut Airport has a Table top runway. These are located on a cliff or plateau. So by the nature of terrain, they have drops on it's all sides. I've experienced both the table top runways at Mangalore International Airport. The first experience was in 2006 on an Alliance Air B737-200 on the shorter runway. It was hell of an experience. Later, the new runway was made operational and have landed there twice. It's much safer and longer than the earlier one.

All runways have buffer zones at ends called as Runway End Safety Area.

Past standards called for the RSA to extend only 60m (200 feet) from the ends of the runway. Currently the international standard ICAO requires a 90m (300 feet) RESA starting from the end of the runway strip (which itself is 60m from the end of the runway), and recommends but not requires a 240m RESA beyond that. In the U.S., the recommended RSA may extend to 500 feet (150 m) in width, and 1,000 feet (300 m) beyond each runway end (according to U.S. Federal Aviation Administration recommendations; 1000 feet is equivalent to the international ICAO-RESA of 240m plus 60m strip). The standard dimensions have increased over time to accommodate larger and faster aircraft, and to improve safety.

[ritz3645]

Originally Posted by adrian

.)

Runway end safety area - RESA

Article from TOI regarding same. Click on Link at end for more visual information.


Runway 10 of Kozhikode airport unsafe, expert warned 9 years ago

CHENNAI: Karipur airport is unsafe and landing should not be allowed here, especially during wet conditions, Captain Mohan Ranganathan, a member of a safety advisory committee constituted by the ministry of civil aviation, had warned more than nine years ago. The crash of an Air India plane on Friday suggests the warning went unheeded.

“My warning, issued after the Mangalore crash, was ignored. It is a tabletop runway with a downslope. The buffer zone at the end of the runway is inadequate,” he said. Given the topography, he pointed out, the airport should have a buffer of 240 metres at the end of the runway, but it has only 90 metres (which the DGCA had approved). “Moreover, the space on either side of the runway is only 75 metres instead of the mandatory 100 metres,” he told TOI.

Ranganathan said there is no guideline for operations on a tabletop runway when it is raining. In his June 17, 2011 letter addressed to the chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Committee (CASAC), with copies to the civil aviation secretary and director-general of civil aviation, Ranganathan had said: “Runway 10 approach should not be permitted in view of the lack of ‘runway end safety area (RESA) and the terrain beyond the end of the runway. RESA of 240m should be immediately introduced and runway length has to be reduced to make operations safe.”

If an aircraft is unable to stop within the runway, there is no RESA beyond the end. The ILS localiser antenna is housed on a concrete structure and the area beyond is a steep slope.
The 2011 letter said: “The Air India Express accident in Mangalore should have alerted AAI to make the runway conditions safe. We have brought up the issue of RESA during the initial Casac sub-group meetings. We had specifically mentioned that the declared distances for both runways have to be reduced in order to comply with ICAO Annex 14 requirement.”
He said the condition of the runway strip was known to the DGCA teams that have been conducting inspection and safety assessments. “Have they considered the danger involved? Did the DGCA or the airline lay down any operational restrictions or special procedures,” Ranganathan asked.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/77424513.cms

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Quite the opposite happened yesterday.

Indeed. Xaos636's post along with several news articles highlight this. A trained first responder once told me that the only people who should go for rescue operations are those who are trained in emergency response. Those who aren't can often get in the way of the professionals.

However, in the tragedy of this magnitude, clearly the locals made a tremendous difference in how quickly the injured were tended to. Gratitude to all of the volunteers, be it taking the injured to hospitals, arranging blood and other essentials. Thankfully there was no fire, else this would have been much worse.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

The Calicut Airport has a wprov=sfla1"]Runway End Safety Area[/url].

Originally Posted by ritz3645

Runway end safety area - RESA

Thank you for the detailed explanation

The causalities did occur due to the aircraft falling off the cliff. So my doubt was that, in this advance age of Engineering, can we not do something like in the picture below ( a reinforced ramp or something sloping gradually down). There is so much money wasted on several things (I am not making a Political comment or pointing a finger). At least some precaution where people's life is at stake.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by adrian

Thank you for the detailed explanation

The causalities did occur due to the aircraft falling off the cliff. So my doubt was that, in this advance age of Engineering, can we not do something like in the picture below ( a reinforced ramp or something sloping gradually down). There is so much money wasted on several things (I am not making a Political comment or pointing a finger). At least some precaution where people's life is at stake.

Attachment 2040086

In case of calicut airport, land acquisition became a problem when they wanted to expand. Something like this would need a lot private property to be demolished. The above report of warning by DGCA is actually an older one. Calicut airport was closed for a year somehwere between 2016-19 to fix the issues raised by DGCA and reopened only recently. Whatever they had done during renovation was not enough to make it safer it seems.

[Hayek]

Quite tragic. Condolences to the families of the departed. One can only be glad this did not turn into a worse accident - my first thought was that we could have lose all or most of the 190 on board.

Calicut is obviously a difficult runway. And monsoons are tough conditions. There obviously was wind slew since the pilot attempted landing from one end and then landed from the opposite end. But nevertheless the question arises as to whether the pilots should have diverted. I think the WhatsApp forward is either fake or ill informed - have not seen any credible source referring to a landing gear problem

[avishar]

This culture of a highly decorated pilot cannot do no wrong is such a South Asian/Asian stance to take. This has led to numerous mistakes in the past and yes ace fighter pilots also make mistakes. Cockpit management issues where a junior/co-pilot does not speak up just because he/she is intimidated by the Captain's seniority has caused some of the worst disasters in aviation.

That said I have quite a bit of faith in Indian air investigation reporting, they have been open and fair in the past. Plus, Boeing will also surely be part of the investigation.

But before that investigation is over, nobody can conclusively say that it was not the pilot's fault or it was the ATC's fault or the runway was short etc etc.

The story of fuel dumping and shutting off engines before coming to a stop is interesting, but I won't be surprised if it is not true. The FR24 does not show any activity that can indicate a plane is dumping fuel, they would need to typically go over the sea and higher altitude.

Secondly, dumping fuel to make it lighter to land (and reducing his chances of landing to one attempt and no go-around) against diverting to a different airport is not something most pilots would do.

[Pegasus1134]

Originally Posted by Hayek

I think the WhatsApp forward is either fake or ill informed - have not seen any credible source referring to a landing gear problem

Correct. Had there been a need to perform a belly landing due to a glitch with the landing gear, the ATC would be informed beforehand. And this would be all over the news by now. Hence we may assume that a normal landing was attempted, till further info is provided.

[Rajeevraj]

A lot of media reports seem to be painting a picture that Calicut Airport (CCJ) was a poorly maintained and dangerous airport. Especially claims from someone telling in 2010 that it was a dangerous airport and needed extensive repairs.

Fact is that extensive renovation works were done on the runway in 2016. For a year before that large jets were not allowed and the airport operated with restrictions. The renovated runway was opened in 2016 and since then additional works have also been done as per the DGCA guidelines. Of course there are reports of recent maintenance recommendations which is claimed to have not been done and may have been true as CCJ has lost quite a bit of focus and traffic post opening of Kannur and the popularity and central location of Kochi Airport. Hope these are taken care of immediately if not done so.

CCJ is the go to airport for me and all my family and together we have flown in and out of CCJ countless times over the last 20-30 years. The airport has been operational from the late 80's and I believe this is the first major accident at CCJ.

Yes, it is a table top airport and that brings in some additional challenges for the pilots, but personally I have never felt a landing or take off at CCJ dangerous in anyway.

Hope the investigations help identify the root cause of what happened and appropriate steps are immediately taken to rectify any short comings. May the departed souls rest in peace.

[fhdowntheline]

Another video from this pilot (who had posted excellent videos of the PIA accident earlier)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU_tj6w65NA

What is particularly important are his comments about the B737-800 in these type of operating conditions, the lack of additional main gear wheel bogies because of the legacy design, and the reduction in flap setting due to elongated fuselage necessitating faster than usual approach speeds. From his viewpoint, even if the landing was technically legal, it should have been a no-go. He also comments on the no-fault go-around protocol in the USA, where the pilot will not be held accountable to extra fuel used due to a go-around or diversion. These are of course early days of investigation, but with the bad weather conditions prevailing, this flight should probably atleast have diverted, even if it was allowed to operate in the first place. Media reports also indicate that the runway friction levels were not tested or reported.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by adrian

There is news going on that it was hydraulic failure and the Pilot attempted a belly landing after dumping fuel. Salute to the brave soul and RIP to all the deceased.

Just a thing that came to mind : why isn't the runway terminated in a gradual descending gradient instead of a cliff ?
Edit : I mean the zone just after the runway (don't know the technical term - buffer zone ?.)

Better wait for the official report about what happened. I am seeing a lot of non-sense in the media about what 'could' have happened- most of which are just downright absurd!!!

No pilot in command in this world in the right frame of mind would do something deliberately to put his/her aircraft or passengers in danger. I am sure Capt Sathe and his First Officer would have fought right till the end to pull them out of the unfortunate predicament they might have found themselves in.

Air India is/was operating a Boeing 747-400 to the middle east from the same Calicut airport - that should lay to rest the questions about Calicut airport's supposedly inadequate runway length.

Airports like Calicut and Mangalore are on top of a hill which means the runways on both sides lead to small of bigger cliffs on either side. Pilots who are specially qualified to land on such tabletop runways are rostered to fly into such airports. In Mangalore 's case, the cliff is much steeper on both sides than Calicut. How does one fill a cliff to extend the runway?

IX812, after running off the runway in Mangalore, plunged from the cliff and burst into flames, completely burning up. Most casualties were because of the post crash fire. In the Calicut crash, while extremely sad and unfortunate, thank God there was no fire,which has reduced the casualty count to a great extent.

This is a photo I took from one of the hills surrounding Mangalore airport in November last year.

It is the direction from which aircraft normally land - approach to Runway 24.

It should give you an idea about the terrain around such table top runways and what the pilots see during rains , poor visibility, low clouds and winds. The runway is at a slope to probably aid braking, but I do not know how effective it is, especially when the landing or take off direction changes because of change in wind direction and/or at pilot's request.

Here's an actual cockpit video of an approach to the same Runway 24, Mangalore Int'l airport. The hilly terrain and cliffs are clearly visible. Now imagine doing this is poor visibility, low clouds, rains and turbulence!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWkBdlB52Uk

Also, puddles of water on the runway can cause aquaplaning and cause an aircraft to skid. Last year in Mangalore in the same monsoon weather, an Air India Express B737 while turning off the runway after landing skidded into a gutter.

[rajarshi94]

I am shocked at the fact that captain Deepak V Sathe was an ex-IAF veteran with glorious records. When incidents like runway overshoot happen, regulators tend to pull the trigger on pilot error. But this time "pilot error" is not an easy statement for the regulatory body or investigators.
Besides that, we have a poor nature of pulling bad maintenance into picture (natural reaction from the citizens, steering their rides to avoid large potholes on daily basis) but this might not be the convict this time.
Really looking forward for more insights from investigators and aviation experts.

[AMG Power]

The Calicut airport is a sort of nom de plume. It's like calling Pune airport as Mumbai airport. It isn't located in Calicut or Calicut district.

It is in Malapuram. The location of the airport was decided to cater to certain political shenanigans. It never was a good location for an airport and never will be. Every landing can scare you because of drops and gorges all around the place.

The airport will remain a major hazard unless drastic changes are made to conform to international requirements of RESA and runway side leeways and then some. It was closed a few years back for good reason but as is the case, reopened with compromises / shortcuts / non compliance with safety parameters.

And yesterday 190 people had to pay for that.