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Old 10th August 2020, 14:23   #91
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

I think there is no use in circulating this piece as it does not match with any of the facts. The plane still had sufficient fuel to go to another airport as per reports from Hardeep Singh Puri the Minister. The pilot did not crashland nor was the landing gear damaged. If the landing gear was faulty the ATC would surely have known. It is a fake message.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tassem View Post
My heart goes out to all the families affected by this. 2020 is indeed a dark year. Turns out one of the pilots was my friend's dad's classmate. He mentioned when this (unverified) forward was shared:

[i]It's hard to believe that Dipak Sathe, my friend more than my cousin, is no more. He was pilot of Air India Express carrying passengers from Dubai in 'Vande Bharat Mission', which skidded off the runway at Kozhikode International Airport yesterday night.

What is learnt is as follows:
Landing gears didn't work.
etc, etc

Last edited by Sheel : 10th August 2020 at 15:16. Reason: Broken quote tag fixed.
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Old 10th August 2020, 15:33   #92
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by prkiran View Post
Can't help but wonder if the narrative would have stayed the same if the pilot was not ex-IAF.
It would have been 100% different and the pilots past landings, age, medical records and every other aspect of his life would have scrutinized including whether he was under any financial / personal stress or undergoing therapy.

This is why whatsapp and facebook have got a bad rep for misinformation, anyone can take an image and put text on it or just make an emotional text forward and all facts go down the drain.

Last edited by AZT : 10th August 2020 at 15:37. Reason: Spell check
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Old 10th August 2020, 15:52   #93
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by Jessierider View Post
Ierhaps, it is true, perhaps the pilots were at fault but I would like to believe until the final investigation report is available to the general public that the men who lost their lives had a part to play in that and saved 171 lives in the process.
Spare a solid thought for perhaps some of the cabin crew members, who definitely would have a hand in activating the emergency exits, having quickly understood that the pilots were fatally incapacitated and called out to the passengers to leave. I am sure they did their job trying to create order out of a chaotic escape.
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Old 10th August 2020, 16:13   #94
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Originally Posted by Jessierider View Post
Perhaps, it is true, perhaps the pilots were at fault but I would like to believe until the final investigation report is available to the general public that the men who lost their lives had a part to play in that and saved 171 lives in the process.
Exactly. It is better to wait for the final report before pointing fingers to the pilots or their background.

It is clear that they were attempting to land in bad weather- a task that is not easy even on the most safest and conventional airports, let alone table top airports. If fingers are to be pointed, why not point it to the ATC as well who cleared them for the landing? I know Mangalore airport does not allow landing of aircraft when the weather gets very bad and it rains heavily eventhough the airport is equipped with ILS. On the morning of the Calicut crash, an Indigo A320 from Bangalore to Mangalore was asked to fly back to Bangalore because it was raining heavily and weather was bad. Bad weather was certainly a factor in the Calicut crash and pilot error too may have been a factor. But it is unfair to crucify the pilots even as the investigation is under progress, something which a dumb DGCA official tried to do on national television recently!!!

A pilot friend of mine once told me their tribe are a misunderstood lot and that passengers and people love to judge them. He once told me how after a bad weather landing, while he was waiting near the cockpit door waiting for all the passengers to disembark, a passenger passed a not so charitable comment on the pilots. All he could do was take it on the chin and ignore it.
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Old 10th August 2020, 16:37   #95
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by GeneralJazz View Post
A wonderful gesture by Kerala Police.

Attachment 2040788


Link

But I guess when people hear the name Malappuram, they naturally assume the worst.
While I totally appreciate the commendable job done by locals, detest the rescue effort being linked to some region or religion etc. I think anywhere in India people will behave in the same fashion. No region in the country should be unnecessarily vilified or gloried. Even in tragedies people are looking for the religion of victims and rescuers.
A bigger disaster struck in Kerala around same date in the form of a landslide. The victims were poor laborers. No salute was reported from that area.
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Old 10th August 2020, 16:49   #96
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Exactly. It is better to wait for the final report before pointing fingers to the pilots or their background.

It is clear that they were attempting to land in bad weather- a task that is not easy even on the most safest and conventional airports, let alone table top airports. If fingers are to be pointed, why not point it to the ATC as well who cleared them for the landing?
Neither are the pilots are the heroes nor the ATC the villians till investigation is over. ATC personnel are as professional and trained as pilots are and as far as their jobs go in airports, they are every bit as important as pilots. So let us not make them out to be the lesser cousins here.

It is not upto the ATC to decide if landing operations are going to be shutdown. They give the pilots information about the runway conditions. As long as there are no obstructions, the plane has followed its instruction regarding route, altitude and speed and is on the glideslope, they are cleared to land.

It is the pilot's decision if he wants to abort, go-around or even divert. Every scenario is already decided before they even take-off from Dubai and standard SOPs exist in what do when decisions have to be taken on a split second. For eg, if the pilot decides to go-around at the last minute the altitude and heading he has to take to turnaround back to the airport is part of the airport's SOP. It doesn't require ATC clearance.

This is a case of Swiss cheese holes lining up. Unfortunate events start cascading into a disaster.

The pilots would have survived had it not been for the concrete (?) wall surrounding the airport. That is what killed them, sadly. Infact I think the wall caused a lot more damage than what it would have been without it. It crumpled the fuselage and cost a lot of lives.

Anyways, if anyone wants to a good un-biased update of the investigation, one should follow this channel.

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Old 10th August 2020, 18:04   #97
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

This guy is using his YouTube popularity to spread such baseless aligations. As it is the discussion around aviation is so misinformed in India, but to muddle it further with such lies is really unpardonable. It needlessly spreads fear among flyers and undermines the work of airlines, pilots and regulators.


Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!-utube.jpg
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Old 10th August 2020, 18:46   #98
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by avishar View Post
This guy is using his YouTube popularity to spread such baseless aligations. As it is the discussion around aviation is so misinformed in India, but to muddle it further with such lies is really unpardonable. It needlessly spreads fear among flyers and undermines the work of airlines, pilots and regulators.

What a pathetic comment. If he were in that situation, would he follow a so-called airline directive or dial in the extra flap level if required based on his piloting acumen and avoid a possible nasty situation?
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Old 10th August 2020, 20:16   #99
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

Quote:
Originally Posted by avishar View Post
Neither are the pilots are the heroes nor the ATC the villians till investigation is over. ATC personnel are as professional and trained as pilots are and as far as their jobs go in airports, they are every bit as important as pilots. So let us not make them out to be the lesser cousins here.
It was a sarcastic remark with reference to the media outlets, certain DGCA officials and so called experts who are jumping the gun in blaming the pilots even as the investigations are being conducted by relevant authorities. My intention was neither to blame the pilots nor the ATC.
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Old 10th August 2020, 23:42   #100
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

Fake News in earlier post alert:

Kerala Police DISOWN cops gesture to thank locals who helped in Kozhikode crash: Link

More to the point, although fake news was posted, it was with genuine intentions and not to mislead. This sometimes happens on discussion forums.

Which brings me to the issue of reservations on posting in the aviation forum.

When there's an accident involving a car, do we wait for the police investigation and the case to be closed in the court before expressing an opinion? Do we not assess what we can and post our opinions based on the skid marks on the road, the impact area of the car, the damage to mechanical components?

So why are there reservations on expressing opinions in the aviation area?

Are we ONLY a court of inquiry to express an opinion after getting data from the CVR or FDR?

This is a discussion forum. Your views may not be entirely accurate, it may be different, heck it may be wrong too, but that's why there are discussion forums.

The only rules one needs to follow are those put in place by the moderators.

In this case, given that the DGCA and the Civil Aviation Ministry may themselves be partly to blame we may not get the entire story. Am reposting the correct link in an earlier post which is quite revealing:



So when the investigation itself may not be carried out properly, what results are we waiting for? The wrong ones?

Listen to the above discussion so that you may know all that's been happening in Calicut Airport. (it's quite a damning one) This will help you form an opinion and express it as long as it's not in contravention of the forum rules.

It's not as if opinions expressed on automotive areas are completely accurate either. So if opinions that are not entirely accurate can be conveyed in other discussions, it can be expressed here too. And what someone feels is inaccurate, may actually turn out to be otherwise.

And while we're in the process of belittling social media and the keyboard warriors who participate therein, let's not forget that we too are keyboard warriors on this automotive social media site.

Let not the pot call the kettle black.
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Old 11th August 2020, 00:15   #101
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

Quote:
Originally Posted by poloman View Post
While I totally appreciate the commendable job done by locals, detest the rescue effort being linked to some region or religion etc. I think anywhere in India people will behave in the same fashion. No region in the country should be unnecessarily vilified or gloried. Even in tragedies people are looking for the religion of victims and rescuers.
A bigger disaster struck in Kerala around same date in the form of a landslide. The victims were poor laborers. No salute was reported from that area.
You are right, no area should be vilified or glorified unnecessarily. I think the only reason why he mentioned it was because 2 months back, the same place was vilified by an infamous politician using blatant lies (you can google her lies and find what's real), & about no salute for rescuers at the landslide site, I believe there are a few differences:

1. It was a major air crash where the fuselage had split into pieces. There were also reports that fuel was leaking. Chances of an explosion and fire were very high. Anyone who engaged in rescuing the injured passengers at that moment was basically staring at their own death.

2. COVID-19, Yeah this one name has completely changed the dynamics of human behaviour in the past few months. You would've read how many health care workers have been attacked in our country for fear of spreading the virus. It's in this situation, locals stepped into helping those from abroad (with high possibility of infection) without thinking about their own health/family. Many from the locality, took the injured to hospitals in their own cars. It was kind of a rally of cars in fact until the Ambulances arrived. Rescuers have gone for a 2-week quarantine but for many, in these difficult times, it's not an easy decision.

3. People lining up in front of the blood bank. Again during Covid times, they were putting themselves at risk for the help of others. They could've chosen to stay at home and reduce any risk or exposure during this pandemic times. But instead, people came out in large no.s voluntarily to help those affected.

So I don't think this glorification is unnecessary, these are normal people like you & me. In fact I think it's NECESSARY, coz if these kinds of good deeds are not glorified, what would qualify for the same eh? So let's enjoy some positivity & spread the good deeds. We all need that kind of positivity especially during these tough times. I felt really proud despite all the sadness around that people came out to help in large no.s taking huge risks that too at the peak of a pandemic. If everyone can think and act like them, this world will definitely be a better place, & I long for that day. Also learnt that the salute wasn't actually an official gesture rather a heartfelt one from the police personnel himself. Nevertheless, a good one.
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Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!-117377115_3082907155097320_9124477964932268341_n.jpg  

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Old 11th August 2020, 03:13   #102
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
Spare a solid thought for perhaps some of the cabin crew members, who definitely would have a hand in activating the emergency exits, having quickly understood that the pilots were fatally incapacitated and called out to the passengers to leave. I am sure they did their job trying to create order out of a chaotic escape.
I have heard the training standards at AirIndia for cabin crew are top notch among other airlines with very experienced crew still flying. I have my friends who are crew with Air India Express. They vouch by the training they receive at Air India /Express.

Guess in aviation, its function over form that must be given precedence.
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Old 11th August 2020, 08:12   #103
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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The final conversation between the air traffic controller (ATCO) and one of the pilots of the Air India Express flight 1344 that crashed last week in Kozhikode did not indicate any sign of danger, according to a senior official of the Ministry of Civil Aviation.

“The last words were a regular transmission, one that a pilot has during a normal runway approach,” the government source told The Hindu on condition of anonymity. ATCOs can’t distinguish whether the voice from the cockpit is of the pilot-in-command or the junior pilot.

“The ATCO established Instrument Landing System (guided landing during low visibility). Following which the pilot sought landing clearance, which was provided. After this, visibility, surface and wind speed conditions were provided to the pilot, which were all acknowledged by him,” the official explained.
More on the link below

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le32320020.ece

Last edited by Bibendum90949 : 11th August 2020 at 08:14.
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Old 11th August 2020, 08:45   #104
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by avishar View Post
Neither are the pilots are the heroes nor the ATC the villians till investigation is over. ATC personnel are as professional and trained as pilots are and as far as their jobs go in airports, they are every bit as important as pilots. So let us not make them out to be the lesser cousins here.
Dont think it is fair to call any of them as villains as everything was done in good faith. We can question competence and also learn from mistakes

Frankly IMHO, the big mistake was not to divert the flight if visibility was poor

Last edited by ajmat : 11th August 2020 at 18:59.
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Old 11th August 2020, 08:55   #105
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Re: Air India Express Flight IX1344 from Dubai crashes at Kozhikode airport!

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Originally Posted by AMG Power View Post
Which brings me to the issue of reservations on posting in the aviation forum.

When there's an accident involving a car, do we wait for the police investigation and the case to be closed in the court before expressing an opinion? Do we not assess what we can and post our opinions based on the skid marks on the road, the impact area of the car, the damage to mechanical components?

And while we're in the process of belittling social media and the keyboard warriors who participate therein, let's not forget that we too are keyboard warriors on this automotive social media site.
Thank you for putting forth your point of view. And from your perspective it must seem valid. There are some observations I'll make and leave readers to draw their own conclusions. I agree that a car crash with one death is a tragedy like an aircrash with two dozen. Non-pilot commenters on Team BHP usually know a lot more about cars, and their crashing than they know about aircraft and their crashing. How much more - looking at the posts on this thread I'd say something in the order of 1000X if not more. If you sit in the shoes of someone from the industry with serious experience in flying or managing you'd be surprised how ill informed and childish and immature some posts are. There is a reason why experienced aviation guys on Team BHP including some very experienced military pilots and squadron commanders have refrained from commenting beyond the token single post requesting for restraint. The video you have shared represents all that is wrong and irresponsible with folks who may know a little but not a lot start offering their caustic views to get in air time visibility. Your comment that the investigation has been botched when the CVR/Black box have just been retrieved also reflects how these irresponsible videos lead good citizens like you to draw erroneous conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
Thank you for sharing this. A professional or military pilot-ATC communication recording will never never ever reflect panic and emotion and words other than those that are a part of the protocol of communication. This is so that neither side misunderstands what is being said and because that is the way pilots are trained. This claim by the newspaper that as no hint of panic is there in the ATC-Pilot radio exchange it might mean or imply XYZ is what is so wrong with every retired bozo and DGCA official and journalist becoming an expert. For some perverse human reason an air crash (as opposed to a rail disaster) gets the video game expert in us stirring.

Last edited by Sheel : 11th August 2020 at 11:02. Reason: Trimmed quoted post and removed video's URL. Thanks.
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