[FrozeninTime]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If you sit in the shoes of someone from the industry with serious experience in flying or managing you'd be surprised how ill informed and childish and immature some posts are. There is a reason why experienced aviation guys on Team BHP including some very experienced military pilots and squadron commanders have refrained from commenting beyond the token single post requesting for restraint.



.

We do need to tone down speculation till official report is out.

P.S I don't want same issues we face in medical sciences to be repeated with aviation sector. Enough harm has been done in medical sciences.Just see the comments by ministers, quacks during this crisis and where these people have ended up in.

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by deep4u

How much of an expert you are, it only takes a small mistake or miscalculation to cause an accident. However all media tried to whitewash the pilot, painting a picture of a hero who sacrificed his life to save others onboard, which is contrary to what happened. It is sad that the pilots lost their lives.

I have seen many fighter planes equipped with parachute for limiting speed while landing. Can't we equip similar feature in passenger planes also to be used in emergency situations?

THIS! As Jeroen has rightly pointed out earlier in this thread, the PIC’s past experience, awards & medals are irrelevant in this accident investigation. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure he was highly experienced, highly respected, highly decorated and the like. But the AAIB investigation will focus on his actions(lack of) that ultimately lead to the loss of life and destruction of a multi million dollar machine.

Regarding parachutes, conventional commercial jet transports are certified to take off and land at relatively docile speeds. The B737-800 is a Category D aeroplane which means it’s landing speed approaching the runway is 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots. At these speeds, the aircraft is certified by law to be able to operate without the need for parachutes. If flown correctly, there is no need for any more deceleration devices than what’s already fitted to the aeroplane. The brakes on the B737 are outstanding. No matter of technology can stop a pilot incorrectly operating an aeroplane.

Originally Posted by Jessierider

It is all but natural to praise a person or paint a picture of a hero of a person on the face of an incident like this where he lost his life but majority of his passengers are safe. Its early days of the investigation to put all the blame on the pilot and wash our hands off.

In my view, until proven otherwise, Capt. Deepak Sathe and FO Akhilesh Kumar are heros, they deserve the benefit of the doubt that a fully loaded aircraft with fuel came hurtling down a 40 feet slope, disintegrated into three pieces but somehow did not catch fire.

These are the exact type of Approach and Landing Accident Reduction (ALAR) which the industry has been trying to prevent since decades but unfortunately keep reoccurring every few years. The Flight Crew Training Manual for the B737 has specific conditions which fight crews MUST adhere to for every single approach & landing (Recommended elements of a stabilised approach). They should have gone around long before they touched down. The fact that they landed long on a wet runway, with a tailwind, on a performance limited runway, is just asking for trouble.

Have I given you enough reasons already why this PIC shouldn’t be put on a pedestal? This accident should never have happened if he did in fact follow procedure. An accident is after all a chain of events.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Exactly. It is better to wait for the final report before pointing fingers to the pilots or their background.

If fingers are to be pointed, why not point it to the ATC as well who cleared them for the landing? I know Mangalore airport does not allow landing of aircraft when the weather gets very bad and it rains heavily eventhough the airport is equipped with ILS. On the morning of the Calicut crash, an Indigo A320 from Bangalore to Mangalore was asked to fly back to Bangalore because it was raining heavily and weather was bad. Bad weather was certainly a factor in the Calicut crash and pilot error too may have been a factor. But it is unfair to crucify the pilots even as the investigation is under progress, something which a dumb DGCA official tried to do on national television recently!!!

We aren’t claiming to pull out facts out of thin air. We are referring to publicly available information and images of the accident. The fact that they tried to salvage/force a landing from an unstable approach instantly points to pilot error. Of course, the DFDR will reveal all in detail.

ATC is not the final authority, far from it. The PIC has the ultimate responsibility & authority for the safe outcome of the flight & it’s occupants. Nobody (except an air to air intercept) can ask a PIC to divert to another airport, it is the PIC’s discretion to divert based on a myriad of factors (weather at destination, fuel remaining, aircraft performance, traffic congestion, etc.

Originally Posted by avishar

It is not upto the ATC to decide if landing operations are going to be shutdown. They give the pilots information about the runway conditions. It is the pilot's decision if he wants to abort, go-around or even divert. It doesn't require ATC clearance.
This is a case of Swiss cheese holes lining up. Unfortunate events start cascading into a disaster. The pilots would have survived had it not been for the concrete (?) wall surrounding the airport. That is what killed them, sadly.

Well said. A classic Swiss cheese model with a chain of events leading up to an accident.

Whatever happened to ICAO guidelines on frangible objects in & around an airport? That’s specifically designed to prevent this sort of devastation.

Originally Posted by Jessierider

I have heard the training standards at AirIndia for cabin crew are top notch among other airlines with very experienced crew still flying.

I can’t speak for the cabin crew, but from what I have heard, the pilot training standards at this airline is from the bottom drawer of Indian aviation. Just look at the number of incidents they’ve had compared to other airlines in the country.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ChoosetoCruze

They should have gone around long before they touched down. The fact that they landed long on a wet runway, with a tailwind, on a performance limited runway, is just asking for trouble.

This is the exact reason why many, including me, have been requesting members to refrain from speculating about the reasons for the crash. The pilots are not among us to defend themselves. None of us were sitting in the cockpit when they made that landing approach, so to say now Oh!!! they should have gone long, why they took shortcuts etc. God knows what were they facing, thinking, what were the weather conditions like or what led to the decisions they made in those final minutes of their lives.

The only thing that will conclusively what went wrong is the final accident report. Till then and I repeat what I said in the PIA thread, merely speculating about the causes, I feel is just disrespectful to the dead crew.

There have been air accidents in the past where the crew were helpless to save the aircraft while landing in adverse weather. Sure, eventually when the report comes out, it might conclusively point to pilot error. But if its doesn't then what? Will anyone apologize?

[Tassem]

I think the sensible thing to do would be to lock this thread till meaningful evidence and investigation reports surface. The only thing that seems to be going on is conjecture and forum relationships going sour due to a mismatch of opinions.

[mpksuhas]

Originally Posted by avishar

This guy is using his YouTube popularity to spread such baseless aligations.

In case you are not aware of the background to this allegations. He had raised issue of unfair practices followed in Air Asia and was suspended from him post as a pilot in the airline.


DGCA had taken up an investigation and has suspended two senior employees of Air Asia for 3 months.

Now its to matter to debate if 3 months suspension is sufficient in a safety violation matter and also that the airline seems to be getting off without facing any action.

Link

Captain Gaurav Taneja, a popular Youtuber, tweeted on June 14 that he has been suspended by AirAsia India "for standing up for safe operations of an aircraft and its passengers"

Taneja alleged in the video that the airline has asked its pilots to do 98 per cent of landings in "Flap 3" mode, which allows it to save fuel. He said if a pilot does not do 98 per cent of landings in "Flap 3" mode, the airline considers it a violation of its standard operating procedure (SOP)

“In order to achieve targets, what would people do? They will do Flap 3 landings without giving consideration whether it is safe or unsafe. This directly impacts the passenger safety," he had claimed in his YouTube video.

Airlines compromising safety to an extent is understandable considering the profit margins. This becomes a matter of serious consideration when almost all airlines are running in loss.

This is where regulatory authority should come in to picture. However, if you follow aviation related news, you regularly come across questionable actions taken by both airlines and DGCA.

Take a look at few below -
Link

"Pilots should not fear being punished for carrying out a go-around. They should not fear consequences like being grounded for a year if a go-around is carried out

Link

A “go-round” or “diversion” certainly results in more spending on fuel but that should not deter a pilot. A 2019 news report quoting DGCA manuals suggests that in 87 per cent cases, the pilots avoid a “go-around” even if the ground situation demanded such an action.

[airbus]

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Airlines compromising safety to an extent is understandable considering the profit margins. This becomes a matter of serious consideration when almost all airlines are running in loss.
This is where regulatory authority should come in to picture. However, if you follow aviation related news, you regularly come across questionable actions taken by both airlines and DGCA.

I remember a statement made in an Air Crash Investigations episode "a few hundred lives is the cost of doing business" - that sums it up

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by airbus

I remember a statement made in an Air Crash Investigations episode "a few hundred lives is the cost of doing business" - that sums it up

I find this statement quite surprising & reprehensible because other than its sheer immaturity this is simply not the language in which air crash investigation reports are written. Please can you share the relevant link for the benefit of all. If this was a statement made in some private party's video then please do not ascribe it to the industry. and if you cannot point us to the link please do not use this forum to spread incorrect statements.

[airbus]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If this was a statement made in some private party's video then please do not ascribe it to the industry. and if you cannot point us to the link please do not use this forum to spread incorrect statements.

I apologize if that statement hurt anyone. It was a statement made by an expert in National Geographic's Air Crash Investigations / MayDay episode. I will try to get the episode number, but it will take some time as I have watched almost all episodes and don't remember exact episode number now. It was in the context of how airline industry cut corners to remain in business.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by airbus

I apologize if that statement hurt anyone. It was a statement made by an expert in National Geographic's Air Crash Investigations / MayDay episode. I will try to get the episode number, but it will take some time as I have watched almost all episodes and don't remember exact episode number now. It was in the context of how airline industry cut corners to remain in business.

I have watched a few of these NG Air Crash investigations episodes. I stopped watching them. They are oversimplifying a lot, some of it is simply incorrect.

NG is just another commercial enterprise in the business of making popular entertaining videos. Not necessarily en par with the true exploratory journalistic investigation for which its magazine was known.

The one significant difference with NG: nobody dies because of poorly researched facts.

Jeroen

[RM Motorsports]

Here is first hand report from TFC about what happened to flight IX1344. As per DGCA's 2011 data, Calicut Airport is one of the most riskiest & unsafe airport in India and had recommended that it not be used for landing during WET conditions.

On July 2019 DGCA had issued show-cause notice for various safety lapses like cracks on runway, water stagnation and excessive rubber deposits.

TFC will surely have a second video out about what exactly went wrong with flight IX1344 once official investigation reports are out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FicWAYFTuOA

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Please do not speculate anything based on this picture and let is wait for the official report of the accident.

Then why post the pics? Once the pics are posted, people will speculate no?

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

One could expect skid marks and the shrubbery to be flattened by the weight and force of the plane, but it looks fairly untouched. It appears as if the plane shot off like a projectile from the top and landed nose or chin first at the bottom of the slope thus breaking it apart.
[/ATTACH]

The latest report and testimony by an eyewitness would answer that:

Plane did not slide, took off cliff, collapsed: CISF officer on last minutes of Air India flight:

“No, the plane did not slide 35-feet down the hill.” CISF Assistant Sub-Inspector Ajith Singh, who was on duty as Kozhikode Airport’s Gate Number 8, had this to say about the final minutes of Air India Express AI-IX1344: “I saw it slightly take off from the cliff and then collapse on to the road, just 15 feet away from our post. All of it happened in less than 4 seconds.”

At 7.40 pm on August 7, when the Air India Express aircraft from Dubai was about to land at the airport in Karippur, the 31-year-old Singh was talking to ASI Mangal Singh at the duty post, as part of perimeter patrolling duties. “There was no sound before the crash. The endpoint of the runway is parallel to the entrance of the perimeter gate from where we could see any flight take off or land,” Singh told indianexpress.com.

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...ficer-6549840/

[DrPriyankT]

This may sound a bit off topic and excuse me for my limited understanding of Malabar geography. Why hasn’t Kannur Airport which has a longer runway, and isn’t a maligned tabletop runway slowly taking over operations from Karipur airport which has been criticised by many aviation safety experts? A simple google search reveals Kannur is just 95km away from Calicut. I have myself flown into Kannur airport, and its pretty well equipped to handle many more passengers than it is handling currently.Apologies again.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by DrPriyankT

Why hasn’t Kannur Airport which has a longer runway, and isn’t a maligned tabletop runway slowly taking over operations from Karipur airport which has been criticised by many aviation safety experts?

A similar question cropped up about Mangalore airport when Kannur Airport began operations. Apparently, most of the Middle East passengers flying from Mangalore to their destination and vice versa are/were from Kasaragod and surrounding areas (which are in Kerala and around 45-50 kms from Mangalore). Before operations began at Kannur, they had no choice but to fly from Mangalore to their destinations(both domestic & international) After the Kannur airport became operational, it was suggested to start more fights to Middle East from Kannur and reduce the same from Mangalore as passengers from Northern Kerala had a choice to fly from an airport in their own state. Before the Covid mess began, Domestic flights to & from Mangalore are most of the times full. I am sure the same holds true for Kannur as well.

However, Mangalore airport serves areas north of Mangalore. Passengers from Udupi, Bhatkal, Chickmaglur districts too use Mangalore( I assume passengers from Coorg, Karnataka would start flying from Kannur as it is nearer to them than Mangalore and Bangalore). I suppose there are similar reasons to not to reduce frequency of flights from Calicut as well.

Distance between two airports/cities are given below.
Kasaragod-Mangalore - 50 kms
Kasaragod-Kannur- 90 kms
Mangalore - Kannur- 140 kms
Kannur- Calicut - 90 kms

Each airport in the area (Mangalore/Kannur/Calicut) serves the large local population in and around those cities and offers convenience to the passengers. It may well be the reason why flight frequencies may not have been reduced from Calicut.



When I was based in Veraval, Gujarat, I always thought why the airport in Keshod closed its operations( it was just 35 kms away from Veraval- a major Pilgrimage destination and home to the seafood industry in Gujarat and a few other big industries). It meant we had to get up at midnight and travel nearly 3 hours by road to get to the nearest airport in Rajkot(which at that time had 1 flight to Mumbai early in the morning and two in the evening). Diu & Porbandar were nearer options but it had just one flight in the day(Mumbai-Diu-Porbandar-Mumbai) and the prices were always costly.

Having more flights and more airports give options to the passengers and probably helps in keeping the prices in check.

[NiInJa]

Can experts post what kind of fail-safe mechanisms are in place for commercial aircrafts so that they don't catch fire in extreme cases ?

I want to understand possible reasons why plane did not catch fire in this incident.