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Old 9th December 2021, 15:51   #31
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

That is indeed sad news. I pray the departed souls rest in peace. I also sincerely hope no one spreads false rumours or news about the reasons behind the crash. In today's media world, all kinds of conspiracy theories will start doing the rounds very soon. Let's help common sense prevail.
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Old 9th December 2021, 16:47   #32
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamahunter View Post
Just came across this article.
The ROCAF Black Hawk crash was a CFIT and attributed to bad weather & poor visibility. There was no conspiracy in it. If I remember correctly, some ROCAF officers were sacked later for allowing the Black Hawk to fly in bad weather in hilly terrain.

Based on the video evidence available, the Mi-17V5 crash too looks to be very similar to the ROCAF Black Hawk crash - flying the country's top most Military man in poor visibility & hilly terrain in a medium lift military helicopter. Chance of this very tragic crash to be a plot/conspiracy to murder the CDS is near zero.

The ill-fated Mi-17V5's serial number was ZP5164 and was a part of Sulur based No.109 HU "Knights" - a decorated IAF Helicopter Unit and the Unit's CO himself was in command of the helicopter.
Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board-img20211208wa0015.jpg

Last edited by skanchan95 : 9th December 2021 at 16:57.
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Old 9th December 2021, 16:56   #33
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmdas View Post
" If the weather is misty and not conducive, the VVIPs are asked to travel by road. On Wednesday the weather was misty in Coonoor from morning and yet this chopper carrying Gen. Rawat was allowed to fly. An Inquiry is needed to know who gave clearance for the chopper to travel in the misty weather. Two other choppers flew to Coonoor limits and went back before the helicopter carrying Gen. Rawat ventured into the aerial space of Nilgiris. "
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
I have always wondered why in such cases (dense fog, extremely poor visibility and uneven terrain) it is decided to continue with the journey. The fog/cloud was so dense, wouldn't it be easier for a helicopter to just turn back to the landing zone?
In a helicopter flight over mountainous terrain the weather changes every few nautical miles, every 200 to 300 meters of ascent or descent, between flying over the top versus through the valley, between crossing one peak from the other. Weather reports especially in mountains can be just okay at time of take off and suddenly 1000 meters up you can have thick as pea soup mist floating down the mountain side - mist that was not on your charts 30 minutes ago when you started. The weather changes rapidly in mountains. The best flight planning you can do can only gauge the weather accurately up to a point. That is a given constant. One must understand these parameters instead of assuming you take off with perfect knowledge of what lies ahead. The variables are so many that you will notice that all the aviation professionals on this forum have chosen not to draw conclusions. But the arm chair air marshals in the media have as always emerged from the woodwork with their prattle. A pilot like a heart surgeon can do his/her best and still destiny can take over.

To the two posts quoted above - I would not conclude {as yet} that the pilot knew mists could roll down and consciously chose to fly and take the risk. Given that the commanding officer of the squadron choose to fly himself indicates he realized the importance of the task {naturally} and the difficulty factor of the flight and decided to fly himself. Flying is all about taking calculated risks in every flight, yes every flight, based on reasonable but rarely perfect data. Every commercial flight all readers have taken involved the pilot taking a few to a dozen calculated calls of many kinds.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 9th December 2021 at 16:59.
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Old 9th December 2021, 19:09   #34
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
mist that was not on your charts 30 minutes ago when you started.
This pic from an old trip in similar terrain would help people visualise it to an extent. The differences in valley and highs. I saw it form and float away in front of me.
Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board-140820111095.jpg

This pic is also from western ghats.
Clouds/mist form and float away in a matter of minutes.
In biker speak visibility goes from good to "can't see your instruments" and back to good in 10-15 minutes.
Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board-14082011943.jpg

Anyone who has travelled long distance in western ghats would know how tricky the situation is on road. In air its way more since the changes we experience in a matter of hours on road will be experienced by the airmen in a matter of minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Given that the commanding officer of the squadron choose to fly himself indicates he realized the importance of the task {naturally} and the difficulty factor of the flight and decided to fly himself.
Ditto.

We should realise that pilots don't have a death wish as to willingly fly into danger. Air accidents happen when a lot of things go wrong in a very short time to overwhelm the reactions, just like road accidents but with way more variables.

The final report is the only way to know the sequence, causes, contributing factors and corrective measures.
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Old 9th December 2021, 21:14   #35
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
In a helicopter flight over mountainous terrain the weather changes every few nautical miles, every 200 to 300 meters of ascent or descent, between flying over the top versus through the valley, between crossing one peak from the other. Weather reports especially in mountains can be just okay at time of take off and suddenly 1000 meters up you can have thick as pea soup mist floating down the mountain side - mist that was not on your charts 30 minutes ago when you started. The weather changes rapidly in mountains. The best flight planning you can do can only gauge the weather accurately up to a point. That is a given constant. One must understand these parameters instead of assuming you take off with perfect knowledge of what lies ahead. The variables are so many that you will notice that all the aviation professionals on this forum have chosen not to draw conclusions. But the arm chair air marshals in the media have as always emerged from the woodwork with their prattle. A pilot like a heart surgeon can do his/her best and still destiny can take over.
My knowledge of aircrafts/helicopters is limited to playing Flight Simulator long back while in school, so my question may be a silly one, yet the below video of the ill fated aircraft's last moments got me thinking:

As far as I know, most helicopters can stop and hover in the air or even fly backwards. So when the pilot saw the dense fog, why didn't he simply 'slam on the brakes' and 'reverse' his way from the fog? From the video, it seems that the area indeed had dense fog and the chopper simply vanished from view as it went forward. Probably it hit something which caused it to crash? I have no idea about the complexities of flying a helicopter but to my layman's mind, it seems that if the pilot simply backed his way out, maybe this tragedy would not have occurred...



Same video in better resolution from TOI:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/88179006.cms
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Old 9th December 2021, 22:53   #36
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Default Rest in Peace Sir - General Bipin Rawat

The first time I heard Gen Bipin Rawat speak was when he addressed us student officers at Staff College, Wellington in the March of 2018. The COAS delivered his customary speech to each staff course and the significance of the event was magnified by the fact that postings of all student officers was declassified the next day.
So on that Wednesday, while he stood on the Sekhon stage, many an audience could be excused for not having paid attention to what he said thanks to the anticipation of the next day's fate.

I, however, was keen to hear what he had to say. I did not have much of an impression about him, aside for the fact that he had been chosen to be COAS over two of his seniors. Unlike many senior officers who are invited to address the staff course, Gen Rawat did not seem to have a prepared script. He also abandoned the safe confines of the podium and stood ahead in the centre of the stage with a collar mic. And for the next couple of hours, he launched into an impromptu speech covering various aspects of the Army, whether controversial or not.

You could sense then that he did not mind ruffling feathers. In fact, to a question addressed to him on why he had a habit of giving out controversial statements, he laughed out loud and said the media were old acquaintances of his and he liked to pull their legs once in a while. Only the once a while happened on an every day basis!

By the end of it, I was very much impressed. So much so that, I volunteered for the evening drinks in honour of the dignitary (for which the student officers are detailed officially and without much enthusiasm) just to have a chance at interacting with him. I enjoyed the evening interaction every bit as his address earlier in the day. He was different.

After the staff college, I was posted to Bikaner and as luck would have it, one month into my tenure, the Chief decides to visit my formation. The visit went well. I remember that his MA specifically told us not to detail any CO as his security officer as he believed COs are not meant for this kind of duties. Even during the briefings, he asked relevant questions only and gave out very measured observations. He was fond of addressing an audience. Especially the officer lot. That day he addressed all the officers of Bikaner and enjoyed an hour long interaction followed by an easy lunch.

My third interaction happened in the aftermath of the Pulwama /Balakote incidents when he visited our formation in our operational deployments. Again, very measured in his response and focussed on practical issues.

That is not to say that he did not have his share of issues. But then, who among us is a perfect 10?
On being elevated to the position of the first CDS, he set specific goals. He followed them with all he had. Many a time, with staunch opposition from his subordinates and the majority. He had vision, of that one couldn't doubt him. He believed that the position of CDS had to be justified so that the bureaucracy of tomorrow doesn't nip this appointment in the bud. He had to take tough calls, often unpopular, but he did, with much harm to his popular perception. He just didn't care for it.

In his first year as CDS, he implemented the Reorganisation of the AHQ. Again, without much enthusiasm from many. In the final few months, he set the apparatus for Theaterisation. A humongous task in itself. He perished before he could see it materialise.

The fateful day of 08 December will go down in the annals of India in general and the Indian Army in specific as one of the most tragic days of recent history. The MI-17 that was slated to land at Wellington for another customary address to a keen eyed audience at Sekhon, met a tragic fate and 13 of the 14 occupants of the heptr lost their lives. A most unfortunate and untimely death. It breaks one's heart.

General Bipin Rawat may not have had the best of the fan following. He may have had his own share of faults and imperfections. But none can doubt that in living memory, we have only had few Generals who have had such an impact as him. He had vision and he hardly shied away from expressing his beliefs.

One incident that will always stay with me is the way he held the hand of the officer in Kashmir who used a human shield to deter the stone pelters. He went one step ahead and got the officer awarded a gallantry award.

I would love to serve under a General as him.
Jai Hind Sir.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 10th December 2021 at 09:44. Reason: Spacing between paras for better readability, removed unwanted capitalising. Thanks.
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Old 9th December 2021, 23:03   #37
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Pardon my limited knowledge, aren't choppers equipped with any form of terrain warning systems, like the ones in commercial aircrafts?
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Old 9th December 2021, 23:12   #38
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Default Re: Rest in Peace Sir - General Bipin Rawat

Wonderful experiences Hunter3077. This is a huge loss for our nation. I cannot fathom to imagine what the families of lost ones must be going through. Om Shanti Om
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Old 9th December 2021, 23:39   #39
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Default Re: Rest in Peace Sir - General Bipin Rawat

I can only pray that if we have lost one visionary like Mr. Rawat today, the next generation gives us 100 more leaders like him and ensure that safety and security of our country is never compromised.
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Old 10th December 2021, 01:40   #40
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Default Re: Rest in Peace Sir - General Bipin Rawat

General Rawat's untimely demise feels like a personal loss without even seeing or meeting him. Every soldier who lay their life and whose lives are snatched by our neighbours and maoists feels personal. He laid a great foundation for the post of CDS. The upliftment of J&K towards total equality could never have happened without him.

Our nation lost 12 true sons and patriots in a single morning and it is a huge loss for us. May all of their souls find place in BAIKHUNT DHAM. OM Shanti.
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Old 10th December 2021, 09:37   #41
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Indeed a tragic loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
4. A helicopter is mechanically a more complex machine than an aircraft.
I had come across this series of video by SmarterEveryDay which explains the complexities involved in great detail. Worth a look. Its a series of 7 videos.

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Old 10th December 2021, 10:16   #42
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

The flying proverb is: 'Helicopters are really a bunch of parts flying in relatively close formation; all rotating around a different axis. Things work well until one of the parts breaks formation.'

Most high profile VIPs perish in chopper crashes because they refuse the slower/longer Instrument Flying Rules (IFR) and insist for Visual Flying Rules (VFR).

Helicopters, unlike planes, are allowed VFR at low altitudes and usually VIPs insist on VFR since it's faster to get from one place to another.

The problem is that when it gets into bad weather, pilots find it difficult to know which direction is which. Same thing happened to Kobe. Was foggy, he wanted to get to the stadium ASAP, insisted on VFR and crashed.

No matter how foggy, IFR flying should've been easy in a Mi-17, especially since this is a new model.

I hate to speculate but I can only assume Rawat insisted on VFR as he had the authority to override command.

Source: I used to fly back in the days.

Approximate description of the situation:




A rough-ish transcript of the video lies below. Every pilot has seen it at least 20 times. Yes, it's totally designed to give you the chills and scare you straight:

The sequence goes like this:

You're in the air for a while now. The sky is overcast and visibility poor. That reported 5-mile visibility looks more like two, and you can’t judge the height of the overcast. Your altimeter says you’re at 1,500 feet but your map tells you there’s local terrain as high as 1,200 feet. There might even be a tower nearby because you’re not sure just how far off course you are. But you’ve flown into worse weather than this, so you press on.

You find yourself unconsciously easing back just a bit on the controls to clear those none-too-imaginary towers. With no warning, you’re literally 'in the soup.'

You stare so hard into the milky white mist that your eyes hurt. You fight the feeling in your stomach. You swallow, only to find your mouth dry. Now you realize you should've waited for better weather.

The urgency was real, but not that important. Somewhere, a voice is saying in your head “You’ve had it.”.

Your aircraft feels in an even keel but your compass turns slowly. You push a little rudder and add a little pressure on the controls to stop the turn, but this feels unnatural and you return the controls to their original position. This feels better but your compass is now turning a little faster and your airspeed is increasing slightly. You scan your instrument panel for help but what you see looks somewhat unfamiliar. You’re sure this is just a bad spot. You’ll break out in a few minutes. But you don’t have several minutes left.

You glance at your altimeter and are shocked to see it unwinding. You’re already down to 1,200 feet. Instinctively, you pull back on the controls but the altimeter still unwinds. The engine is into the red and the airspeed, nearly so.

Now you’re sweating and shaking. There must be something wrong with the controls. Pulling back only moves that airspeed indicator further into the red. You can hear the wind tearing at the aircraft.

Suddenly, you see the ground. The trees rush up at you. You can see the horizon if you turn your head far enough but it’s at an unusual angle, you’re almost inverted. You open your mouth to scream but...

Edit: Wanted to add a real life, NSFL video available of the exact thing described above.

Trigger Warning: Death



Last edited by stallmaster : 10th December 2021 at 10:21. Reason: Added video
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Old 10th December 2021, 10:42   #43
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Golden Words-

Group Captain Varun Singh's letter to students.
The lone survivor of the IAF chopper crash,battling for life at a military hospital in Bengaluru.

Prayers for his recovery.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le37920892.ece
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Old 10th December 2021, 10:46   #44
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Anecdote from Uniformed life;

There was once a desert Para who had impressed a Olive 3star to the extent the 3star wanted him on his staff, the day this was conveyed to the Para he vehemently complained to his superior saying he was not a desk material and didnt wish to be one, the superior another gem of a person told him two things
1. Kid never say never to any 3star
2. Now don't you bang the door on your way out
Fait accompli the para found himself in the national capital skeptical on his future but then as it went in the uniform life "However disdain duty is duty", as time progressed the Para started seeing more of his boss, the more he saw the more he learned, the more he learned more the admiration grew, more the admiration grew more the respect grew, he understood the vulnerabilities the job of his boss carried but he was in sheer awe of the way it was executed, never had he dreamt a desk job could be so enriching.
Time passed and his bond with the three star grew strong as well, he ran his errands, he ran his desk, he hid the sweets the boss was crazy about only to later find him relishing the same with a wink saying "better luck next time". Every moment spent was moment learned.
As every good thing comes to end so did his tenure, the Para got busy with his next posting but couldn't relinquish the awe of his erstwhile boss who went up the ladder at jet speed to bring around reforms in uniformed life unheard before. Even in different sphere's of life there was always a Birthday wish and a Diwali gift on his desk signed with "Gratitude and Love always".
But sometimes fate plays its cruel card, there was this day when in civilian life the Para officer was holidaying in Ooty when he looked at the foggy weather and remarked to his wife casually "what hopeless weather to be flying in"....End of and Era, End of the Story.
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Old 10th December 2021, 13:16   #45
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Default Re: Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board

Feel sorry for the loss to Nation and family ! I am disheartened that a figure of such national security importance died on a ill-fated flight.

More disheartened that inspite of advancement of Space technologies India possesses, we cannot evaluate risk of 'technologies vs Nature' and avoid such incidents, the crash is suspected due to weather conditions. Is there was no weather advisory issued to crew by ATC? I think this could have being averted but yes god has his own play to role but at-least as human we can do the maximum we can in our capacity.
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