[am1m]

Originally Posted by stallmaster

Helicopters, unlike planes, are allowed VFR at low altitudes and usually VIPs insist on VFR since it's faster to get from one place to another.

Apologies if this seems like a rather naive question (I've never even been in a helicopter) but given some of the high-profile tragic incidents like this (YSR, and like you mentioned Kobe Bryant)- are there discussions in aviation circles around some sort of protocol where the pilot's decision is final? Of course, I understand that one simply does not say no to people of a certain stature and seniority, but that's where some sort of accepted rule or protocol would help?

[Gansan]

A layman question. I have never travelled by helicopter till date.

From Coimbatore to Coonoor is not very far. Why fly through the valleys and contours of the mountain? Why not climb straight up, higher than Nilgiri mountains and descend in to Coonoor? Wouldn't that be simpler and safer?

[stallmaster]

Originally Posted by am1m

I understand that one simply does not say no to people of a certain stature and seniority, but that's where some sort of accepted rule or protocol would help?

It's definitely not that simple. For an analogy, you could be a doctor, know the risks of a dangerous unconventional invasive procedure, let the patient know about the risks, but still have to go through it since the patient is some political neta and he presses the hospital management to go on. You believe in yourself since you are a surgeon with multiple years of experience, ask the patient to sign a bond, say a 'Hail Mary' and proceed.

Also, the very nature of the job means flying in poor conditions a lot of the time. Pilots have pressure to get the job done from themselves as much as the command structure. Most of the time it's a non-event. Helicopter pilots in my experience are very mission oriented and they all want to get the job done. Normally the hardest part of the job is making those no-go decisions. It isn't a culture thing where everyone is flying blind in sketchy weather all the time, more like human factors where pilots themselves can get trapped into bad decision making.

Plus I think it depends a lot on service specific training. I was in the Navy and IFR is an everyday reality for Naval Aviators. Having to fly regularly braving crazy winds, unstable platforms and borderline cyclone conditions, it really is nothing short of terrifying from the outside looking in. However, these aviators are conditioned and trained constantly for these types of situations and just take them as they come and embody the meaning of a high standard. Your instruments will never lie to you, although your senses can.

In my opinion, unless you're doing a VFR specific flight(recon, attack, training, etc.) you should always be on an IFR fight plan.

Instrument flight in a helicopter is a little more challenging because of a helicopter's inherent instability(think like trying to drive safe, follow the curves/hazards of the road and having to look at the ICE tab, instrument cluster at the same time), but you have the advantage of being able to go slow. You have options. Instrument flying is about the least sketchiest thing I've done in a helicopter.

Insider joke: IFR stands for I Follow Roads.

Originally Posted by Gansan

Why not climb straight up, higher than Nilgiri mountains and descend in to Coonoor? Wouldn't that be simpler and safer?

Because of a combination of factors plus VFR(A pilot needs eyes on the terrain). It's about power and efficiency mostly. Air at lower altitude is denser and can offer greater lift to the blades vs thinner atmosphere at higher altitude meaning you need more fuel.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by am1m

are there discussions in aviation circles around some sort of protocol where the pilot's decision is final?

There was this tweet by a former Army pilot. The pilot in command probably does have a say in such situations.






He also goes onto say this about the tragic crash

[Sran]

The 4 other legends who were taken away from us.

Naik Gursevak Singh
9 PARA (SF)
Enrolled in March 2004
Served in Ladakh, J&K (Poonch-Rajouri, South & North Kashmir)
Demolition specialist and leadership course-Best Student
Expert in Unarmed Combat and Close Quarter Battle.

Lance Naik Vivek Kumar
PARA SF
Enrolled in December 2012
Served in J&K (South & North Kashmir-Sino Indian border ahead of Spiti
Specialist in Combat Freefall, Communication Expert and Excellent in Unarmed Combat.

Lance Naik Jitender Kumar
3 PARA (SF)
Enrolled in March 2011
Served in the Desert sector along Indo-Pak border, Sino-Indian border near
Pithoragarh and J&K
Expert Sniper and specialist in Communications.

Lance Naik B Sai Teja
11 PARA (SF)
Enrolled in Jun 2013
Served in Super High Altitude in Arunachal along Sino-Indian border& Counter
Terrorist operations in Manipur and Nagaland.
Expert in Mixed Martial Arts, Unarmed Combat, Communications and Electronic Warfare.

Brigadier LS Lidder was cleared for Major General rank.

A huge loss for the nation.

[styx71]

Although the cause of the crash might be different (we might never know), this video shows a similar incident that happened in RAF back in 1994:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Giyw0p8EhL0

[Sudeep Lakhotia]

With tears in our eyes we give our homage and respect to the thirteen who lost their lives in this unfortunate accident.
The nation will forever be in debt of their selfless service.
We bid final salute to them. Praying for speedy and healthy recovery of Group Captain Varun Singh.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by stallmaster

Also, the very nature of the job means flying in poor conditions a lot of the time. Pilots have pressure to get the job done from themselves as much as the command structure. Most of the time it's a non-event.

Yes, only with hindsight can we now blame the decision to fly. The pilots must have flown through worse conditions without a problem to even graduate to elite levels for flying VIPs.
As was said earlier, the most difficult skill in the job would be to know when to say no.

Also, while saying 'NO' keeps everyone safe on the ground, it would damage your reputation as your seniors will wrongly attribute that to lack of confidence and skills.
And these are seniors who think they know the job better than you do.

[silverstreakcbe]

Originally Posted by Gansan

A layman question. I have never travelled by helicopter till date.

From Coimbatore to Coonoor is not very far. Why fly through the valleys and contours of the mountin? Why not climb straight up, higher than Nilgiri mountains and descend in to Coonoor? Wouldn't that be simpler and safer?

Simply to put:

1. The local administration is not so efficient and disciplined as Defense establishment to carry out critical & precise tasks. If a politician is coming, then they will block the entire path putting common people to hardships.
2. Being a resident of Coimbatore and on very the same stretch from Coimbatore to Mettupalayam and seeing the current situation. Here they are not able to plan efficiently for common citizen movement, i can only wonder will they be able to plan for a distinguished personnel like the CDS.
3. There are civil works/NH works going on the stretch where there are multiple diversions which adds to the complexity of security risks and requirements and since the event was planned on a weekday peak hour movement adds to the displeasure of everyone which CDS himself would not have warranted for.

Also, it would have been the choice of the Defense personnel to ensure they execute it in a manner they deem right. Chances are there that they did not want to disturb the local administration who in turn would put common people to hardships.

[VijayAnand1]

Being a resident Ooty and shell shocked as to what has transpired, it was a mental agony and one that left me tremulous to say the least. The video that shows the chopper crashing taken by tourists is a location midway between MTP and CNR called Katteri, a dense, plush mound riddled with deep ravines and tall Eucalyptus trees. The NMR tracks midway.

Usually, this time of the year, fog and humidity is at its peak. The post-monsoon period where it's skin shrinkingly sunny in the morning and bone marrow chilling freeze, post noon.

Usually, MTP, Burliar Katteri, and CNR stretch doesn't see intense fog. At 2240 Meters -ish MSL, you can literally glide among clouds and it's a view to cherish, especially early morning runs. Strangely enough, this time around, things have taken a twist. A fog of this intensity usually incapacitates the MTP to Kotagiri to OTY stretch, which I frequent, and a graceful nightmare especially during night drives/rides, as it's so intense and literally blinding for hours.

Beginning this month, the OTY-CNR-Katteri-MTP stretch has taken a strong liking to intense fogging and all these years in Ooty, I haven't experienced such blinding fog on this route, which I first handedly experienced where I had to drive back late night after routine eye check up for father in CBE. The fog started to appear mildly after Katteri and progressively worsened until we reached Coonoor bus stand. Father wasn't impressed either, as he too was surprised to see this kind of a fog setting. Was almost a sinsiter-ish fog that I haven't witnessed in a long time, or to put it clearly (years).

Fast forward to the crash. My heart was in so much grief, I wanted to visit the place where the crash had taken and importantly where these tourists took the last footage, and boy would you be surprised to see the climate that Katteri was proud to pose, today? This.

I had to make a small, spooky trek downwards, 1.33 KMS from Runneymede and found this small tunnelish juncture, you see in this picture. The other end of this tunnel is where the tourists surprisingly took the video of the ill-fated chopper. The chopper was just a five to 10 mins away from its destination.

The Bushed Tunnel



What caught my attention was, there were numerous reporters and journalists present, NDTV, Polimer vehicles parked at the parking and a few others, you can see them in the picture, squinting a little harder. Reporters interviewing locals and recording, while I was grazing through them silently and started my spooky trek downward.

Reporters Interviewing Locals on Tracks


Reporters in Action a few KMS away from the Spot


I am not an emotional guy, but this wreck and the following events have left me overwhelmingly emotional and scarred. A crash of this kind is the first of its kind in Nilgiris' history and losing precious cargo, all the while those ill-fated souls going through "incinerated hell" is something that wets my eyes, as I type this.

The Nilgiris Merchant Sellers/Municipality Association and rickshaw and private transport groups have called for a complete shutdown to show their respects for the perished, 6 AM to 6 PM today, and I felt the the town echoing with eerie melancholy.

Took the opportunity to ride to Katteri. I tried my best to go to the actual spot where the chopper crashed, as usual, it was heavily guarded and cordoned off with vans of cops soldiering. The place is being scouted and scoured for any remaining wreckage is what I was told.

Turned my head towards the bright sky, asked why mother nature was so inclement on that ill-fated day, why she couldn't have been as forgiving as she was today... or perhaps she really wasn't at fault, who knows what caused the loss of those souls.. and as I turned my ignition key on... prayed for those lost souls... I realized, she's mother nature and that's how she is...


Cheers!
VJ

[PGA]

Unnatural or sudden loss of life while doing your professional duties does happen when you don any kind of uniform. Majority of times you take it stoically and try to move on as quickly as one can. The present accident felt like a jab in solar plexus, the second one in recent times, first was Pulwama. it will take a little greater time before life returns on even keel for large number of us but almost never for families of those on board the fateful flight. It also rekindles tough memories for many families whose loved ones attained veer gati in the line of duty earlier.

While I have no doubt that IAF will investigate it threadbare and arrive at honest conclusions and learnings as it has done before almost everytime if not in public view but internally for sure. I say that with certainty as I have seen it happen every time during my two and half decades that I spent in blues and was part of a number of investigations. By now Iam quite sure the accident would have been discussed and debated in crew rooms with COs and Flt Cdrs present and each stake holder would have internalised some lessons by the time formal instructions drip down.

Why do such accidents happen? The question just keeps on hovering around the head without any satisfying answers. AVM M Bahadur has tried to explain it giving a cheese block anology answer in his recent article.

https://theprint.in/opinion/why-airc...s/778884/?s=09

This is fine to get a theoretical view but in the field how and when do you know that cheese holes have aligned and everytime they align we do not end up having a disaster. Do we Indians have a propensity towards aligning these holes somehow. Well I will need to do a PhD to get that answer but there is an aspect in our socio- cultural milieu which does lead us in that direction, sometimes. It is our unquestioning obedience to order authority or seniority majority of times at peril to our professionalism.

The 'Sir' business is only increasing in all our spheres of interaction in uniform or in civvy street and we tend to extol and reward this virtue. Psychology has a parlance called adaptive child personalities/ ego state. In my opinion three of same kind in a hierarchy are a perfect recipe for aligning the holes of a cheese block.

[sandeepmdas]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

A crash of this kind is the first of its kind in Nilgiris' history

Very touching post

However, the above-said is not correct. There was a very similar (eerily similar, I'd say) air crash happened in Kotagiri on 13 DEC 1950 and a very famous person and his wife died along with 19 others. The deceased eminent person was Abraham Wald, a Hungarian/Hungarian Jewish mathematician who contributed to decision theory, geometry, and econometrics, and founded the field of statistical sequential analysis and considered as the Father of Operational Research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Wald

The couple's two kids were in the US. The youngest of them was just 3-year old then. He is now a world-renowned physicist: Robert Wald, winner of the super-prestigious Einstein Prize and he is a contender for the Nobel too.

The accident aircraft was an Air India DC-3. It hit the Rangaswamy Peak.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19501213-1

[sai_ace]

Originally Posted by silverstreakcbe

Simply to put:

1. The local administration is not so efficient and disciplined as Defense establishment to carry out critical & precise tasks. If a politician is coming, then they will block the entire path putting common people to hardships.
2. Being a resident of Coimbatore and on very the same stretch from Coimbatore to Mettupalayam and seeing the current situation. Here they are not able to plan efficiently for common citizen movement, i can only wonder will they be able to plan for a distinguished personnel like the CDS.
3. There are civil works/NH works going on the stretch where there are multiple diversions which adds to the complexity of security risks and requirements and since the event was planned on a weekday peak hour movement adds to the displeasure of everyone which CDS himself would not have warranted for.

Also, it would have been the choice of the Defense personnel to ensure they execute it in a manner they deem right. Chances are there that they did not want to disturb the local administration who in turn would put common people to hardships.

Statements like these pointing fingers at what is a very efficient state police department is uncalled for. Of course if you have specific proof for making such statements - then please do share. Till then this is quite clearly borderline instigation.

The CDS is accorded Z Plus category protection - and they take the option deemed most apt regardless of the 'hardships of the common man'. This entire post seems like an unnecessary vilification of the local administration and police while praising the CDS (God Bless his soul) for an hypothetical situation.

Below link throws light on the arrangements.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/gen-...p-2418099.html


Also the TN Police came under praise from the IAF for their efficient role after the incident. The same was conveyed to the CM as well.

[tatafanatic]

Unique memory from Uniform Life
As this forum relates to world of automotive, this might be relevant
In continuation from my earlier post, there was a Desert Para on staff duty of a rising 3 star and it must have been the summers of 2015 when this Para and three other likeminded buddies if one may say decided to ride their respective Vespa's from the national capital to Bhutan, they even convinced the provost mechanic to join saying that this journey was "Bass yahin nazdeek jaana hain", the relevant permissions stood taken, leave permission was granted and the day before journey commencement he receives a note saying the General would like an audience, now he didn't find the request too demanding as he believed in hierarchy of importance the general had better things to do.
Early next morning general comes to his quarters (now that's something very very few stars did, do and will do) and as was his style asked pertinent questions related to the trip and then proceeded to see the vehicles for self, on finding three maroon scooters lined instead of what every other tom dick and harry would be using (Royal Enfield) he burst out into his signature laughter, If that smile was infectious the laugh was gregarious !!
In lighter vein of the day he asked for a pillion ride around the complex and shared some personal anecdotes of his relation with two wheelers in yesteryears of his life. He mentioned his preferences for SUV's over sedans as ingress and egress was easier considering the state of his current health
Much later at a function the Para met the General now at pinnacle of his career, taking the para aside he recalled the day he sat pillion on the vespa being the last one of sorts as his job demands and increasing weight were going hand in hand.
Now they don't make them kind of anymore I say

[silverstreakcbe]

Originally Posted by sai_ace

Statements like these pointing fingers at what is a very efficient state police department is uncalled for. Of course if you have specific proof for making such statements - then please do share. Till then this is quite clearly borderline instigation.

The CDS is accorded Z Plus category protection - and they take the option deemed most apt regardless of the 'hardships of the common man'. This entire post seems like an unnecessary vilification of the local administration and police while praising the CDS (God Bless his soul) for an hypothetical situation.

Below link throws light on the arrangements.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/gen-...p-2418099.html


Also the TN Police came under praise from the IAF for their efficient role after the incident. The same was conveyed to the CM as well.

Apologies, if my post has hurt you personally

Thanks for bringing it up.