[pandabear]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

In India, The Embraer ERJ is used by the Indian Air Force and Star Air which operates as part of the Central Government's UDAN scheme.

Embraer used to be flown in India by Paramount Airways. Was a beautiful aircraft have really amazing memories of my travels with them and unfortunately got closed by the web spun by the political mafia. Not sure how many of you remember that used to be India's first Airline with all business class service simply amazing. Service was mostly limited to Tamilnadu.

Interesting bit of trivia is they were so profitable at one point of time they were trying to buy out Spicejet. So you can connect the dots.

[THE-U-]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

Some key points:

a) MCAS is a very powerful system and is connected to only one angle of attack (AOA) sensor at the nose of an aircraft. So has no backup incase of failure or damage.

b) Once the MCAS system takes over the Pilot has only 10 seconds to disable it before it turns fatal with point of no return as it happened in the Ethiopian crash.

c) After the first crash the FAA had mentioned in their TARAM report that if the issue is not fixed there could be another 15 crashes during the life cycle of this model aircraft or one crash every two years. However, Boeing convinced the FAA that a software update will fix it.

d) When Trump grounded this aeroplane in 2019 it was the first time a president of USA had ever done it himself and when the aircraft’s were to be taken to the storage facilities post grounding the pilots were actually scared for their lives to fly it.

Thanks for posting this summary. For those who are interested in the MAX issue, here is the link to the authoritative NTSB report:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/ASR1901.pdf

Here are two paragraphs about the Lion Air Crash (just to pique everyone's interest):

The airplane’s digital flight data recorder (DFDR) recorded a difference between the left and right angle of attack (AOA) sensors that was present during the entire accident flight; the left AOA sensor was indicating about 20° higher than the right AOA sensor. During rotation, the left (captain’s) stick shaker activated, and DFDR data showed that the left airspeed and altitude values disagreed with, and were lower than, the corresponding values from the right. The first officer asked a controller to confirm the altitude of the airplane and later also asked the speed as shown on the controller radar display. After the flaps were fully retracted, a 10-second automatic aircraft nose-down (AND) stabilizer trim input occurred. After the automatic AND stabilizer trim input, the flight crew used the stabilizer trim switches (located on the outboard side of each control wheel) and applied aircraft nose-up (ANU) electric trim. According to DFDR data, about 5 seconds after the completion of the pilot trim input, another automatic AND stabilizer trim input occurred. The crew applied ANU electric trim again. DFDR data then showed that the flaps were extended for almost 2 minutes. However, the flaps were then fully retracted, and automatic AND stabilizer trim inputs occurred more than 20 times over the next 6 minutes; the crew countered each input during this time using ANU electric trim. The last few automatic AND stabilizer trim inputs were not fully countered by the crew.

During the preceding Lion Air flight on the accident airplane with a different flight crew, the DFDR recorded the same difference between left and right AOA of about 20° that continued until the end of the recording. During rotation, the left control column stick shaker activated and continued for the entire flight, and DFDR data showed that the left airspeed and altitude values disagreed with, and were lower than, the corresponding values from the right. After the flaps were fully retracted, a 10-second automatic AND stabilizer trim input occurred, and the crew countered the input with an ANU electric trim input. After several automatic AND stabilizer trim inputs that were countered by pilot-commanded ANU electric trim inputs, the crew noticed that the airplane was automatically trimming AND. The captain moved the stabilizer trim cutout (STAB TRIM CUTOUT) switches to CUTOUT. He then moved them back to NORMAL, and the problem almost immediately reappeared. He moved the switches back to CUTOUT. He stated that the crew performed three non-normal checklists: Airspeed Unreliable, ALT DISAGREE (altitude disagree), and Runaway Stabilizer. The pilots continued the flight using manual trim until the end of the flight. Upon landing, the captain informed an engineer of IAS DISAGREE (indicated airspeed disagree) and ALT DISAGREE alerts, in addition to FEEL DIFF PRESS (feel differential pressure) light problems on the airplane.

I know it is a sensitive topic for many. However, issues with pilot training is not completely unknown in the developing world. Pilot licensing fraud in Pakistan was also in the news a few months ago. One question always comes up in discussions: Many of the US and European airlines operated many more MAXs than Lion Air or Ethiopian Airlines and the probability of a crash with the Western Airlines is higher naturally. But, why didn't the aircarft of these airlines crash first? If I recall correctly, Lion Air had about 5 MAXs and so did Ethiopian compared to nearly 100 in the US between American, United and South West.

[Anees_Offl]

Originally Posted by driver52001

There was a certain crash in the US some decades back when the rear elevators jammed due to a screw failure. It jammed in such a way that the plane nose dived and the pilots could do nothing about it. This straight dive seems like a catastrophic hydraulics failure. Probably the configuration just before the hydraulics failure was of descent and from there control was lost. Or, it's a very unprecedented thing for such a new airframe to lose the horizontal stabiliser due to structural failure. Like some have pointed out here, it could have been ripped apart during the dive. So back to hydraulics failure. Lastly, hope it wasn't pilot suicide like German Wings.

Flying at the light of speed and crashing on a mountain is unimaginable. What would have been the reaction and mindset of the passengers on board. Helplessness to the core!! Todays newspaper also states that 1 Black box is found, but has been heavily damaged.
Hope the authorities are able to get some information from the black box.
May their souls rest in peace!!

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by THE-U-

I know it is a sensitive topic for many. However, issues with pilot training is not completely unknown in the developing world. If I recall correctly, Lion Air had about 5 MAXs and so did Ethiopian compared to nearly 100 in the US between American, United and South West.

Agreed, with Pilot training issues but that is not the case with the MAX 8.

With the first crash involving a Indian pilot Boeing were quick to blame it on pilot error for the crash and not following procedures which they maintained even after the second crash.

The main problem was that Boeing never included details about the MCAS in their Pilot manual and hence the Pilots were never trained about using that system. Boeing did this so that Pilots need not go through separate simulator training and sold this new model as just a model with a more fuel efficient engine which will need no additional training for pilots to fly. This was important as otherwise clients would opt for the Neo instead as taking off pilots and training them is an expensive affair. Boeing even hid the MCAS role from FAA to get a certification as a simple upgrade and no major changes which would need additional pilot training.

After the first crash when the role of MCAS popped up even Pilot unions in USA were surprised to hear something critical like this exists on the MAX 8, which is only mentioned in the abbreviation section of the manual.

After the second crash the FAA was still not ready to ground the aircraft as it didn’t have data to prove that the crash is due to a design fault, but other countries on their own started grounding the aircraft which was lead by China when the black box data which was analysed in France revealed that the crash and flight pattern was similar to the first crash. After that they located the Jackscrew at the crash sight and it was found stuck at the full nose down position is when within 30 mins of this finding Trump did a press conference and declared that he is ordering the entire MAX 8 and 9 fleet to be grounded with immediate effect.

In the investigation which began after this it was found out that the MCAS system would be a more critical part than Boeing thought initially as it had to stabilise the plane even at low speeds and still they never informed the Pilots and FAA about it. Also, ironically Lion Air had written to them asking for more training on this new aircraft which was denied by Boeing as its not required.

At a Congressional hearing in Washington, DC, the famous Captain ‘Sully’ Sullenberger said, “We shouldn’t be blaming the pilots. And we shouldn’t expect pilots to have to compensate for flawed designs…”

That is why there is this saying among Pilots If He’s Alive Nail Him, If He’s Dead Blame Him !

[AkMar]

I think we are going way off topic with the discussions on MCAS. There is another thread on MAX crashes and grounding where this discussion can take place.

Let us keep this thread restricted to the China crash, in which the aircraft was not a MAX & did not have MCAS system in it.

[shancz]

Sad and scary is an understatement to describe the tragedy.

Coming back to the 737-800, the accident aircraft in this case, the crash profile reminded me of the 2 fatal and 1 nonfatal crashes of the 737 aircrafts due to uncommanded rudder hardovers.
Credits to Providers : Wiki : 737 Rudder Issues

While not ruling out the other scenarios already mentioned, will wait for the investigation to conclude.
I am not very hopeful about the state of the recorders though.

The results are very important as the 737-800 is the workhorse for many airlines across the world and the MAX isn't even remotely close to the 737-800 in dependency.

The investigators need all the luck that's possible to decode this crash.

[skanchan95]

Today, Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) reported in their 4th press conference, that a large piece of debris (1.3 meters by 0.1 meters) from the aircraft was found 10km away from the crash site. It is not known whether this part separated before or after the dive. They have also managed to recover engine parts embedded on the ground.

The main debris at the crash site otherwise is confined within 30 meters radius, 20 meters deep.

Originally Posted by shancz

Coming back to the 737-800, the accident aircraft in this case, the crash profile reminded me of the 2 fatal and 1 nonfatal crashes of the 737 aircrafts due to uncommanded rudder hardovers.

The rudder hardover issue was limited to the 737's Original & Classic variants only and not on the NG(which this ill-fated aircraft was) & MAX variants. Not a single NG or MAX variant of the 737 has crashed because of rudder hardrover.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The rudder hardover issue was limited to the 737's Original & Classic variants only and not on the NG(which this ill-fated aircraft was) & MAX variants. Not a single NG or MAX variant of the 737 has crashed because of rudder hardrover.

True, I wasn't implying that as a cause but just that the profile reminded me of that incident. That issue had been identified and solved long ago by Parker Hannifin and Boeing.

As for this case, something catastrophic would've happened to cause this. A part of the tail section separating in the video most likely due to aerodynamic stress is the only thing I could see.

Bracing for a long investigation but hopefully conclusive.

[condor]

Reports say that the second black-box from the crashed plane has now be recovered.

The black box was recovered five feet deep in the ground and about 130 feet away from the point where the plane crashed, Zhu Tao, director of the Office of Aviation Safety at the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC), told a press conference on March 27.

Parts of the recorder were badly damaged, but the exterior of the data storage unit of the device appears to be in good condition, Zhu said, adding it has been sent to Beijing for analysis.

The CVR which was recovered on March 23rd is said to be being analysed in Beijing

[AdityaDeane]

Not sure about the authenticity of the video and content, but saw this on YouTube!

https://youtu.be/qLBTCfRdgaM

Video description mentions that it is of the recent crash which occurred in China in March 2022.

[drive2eternity]

TheFlightChannel is a popular and good Youtube channel. The content is mostly well researched and released only after the official investigation outcomes are known. However, the above video is sort of premature, maybe the channel owner has fallen into the trap of gathering more followers/subscribers by releasing videos quicker on hot topics. The video doesn't give any updates on the causes and also the facts stated are still debatable.

Overall, I'd say wait till we have closure.

[fhdowntheline]

Meanwhile, another Boeing 737-800, from Malaysian Airlines, experienced a free-fall from which it recovered safely and took another lesser drop, and then again recovered.
https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2...over-jets-dive

I wonder what's going on really.

[tazmaan]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Meanwhile, another Boeing 737-800, from Malaysian Airlines, experienced a free-fall from which it recovered safely and took another lesser drop, and then again recovered.
https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2...over-jets-dive

I wonder what's going on really.

A wild thought. With all the planes having connected tech could there be a possibility of malware/virus/hacking angle ?

[nagr22]

Originally Posted by tazmaan

A wild thought. With all the planes having connected tech could there be a possibility of malware/virus/hacking angle ?

Couldn't stop to laugh at this Most likely reason could be lack of practice to crew considering the reduction air travel during the last couple of years. By crew I mean not only the flight crew, but also maintenance crew who might make mistakes. Having said all that, we cannot say for sure unless we know all the facts. But I can definitely say there is no connected tech involved.

If you see any news reports of Tesla cars going on a rampage, then let's discuss about malware/virus/hacking

[fhdowntheline]

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...148191.article

Another flight control issue ! Even though these incidents may not be connected with each other, it seems quite a coincidence to have them in such rapid succession. I dont think we are yet back to the busy old days of commercial services for this to be statistically a blip.