[RRA_Blogger]

I have heard that the rear engine configurations that Leyland has tried have not lasted long.

For instance, below is a sourced picture:



Next to that SETC can be spotted short lived Leyland rear engine SLFs of MTC. They have apparently sustained for not more than 2-3 years since 2006.

Also, the Leyland Luxura that may have rolled out during 2011-2012 has also not gotten significantly famous.

I may stand corrected if I am wrong with these statistics. But yes, these are as I have heard.

Also, I think that the current Multiaxle coach prototype of Leyland may have a very low engine output (250 HP) and a very large rear overhang compared to other Multiaxle fleet.

Can I be enlightened more into these?

Regards,
Akshay.

[vharihar]

Not just AL, but TM too. Somehow the Indian mfrs haven't done well on the rear engine bus space at all.

All seem underpowered and noisy and struggling to run even in flatlands like airport tarmacs (TM RE buses struggle even more).

Dunno why. Volvo has mastered this space, I don't know what's the insurmountable technical challenge for the Indian mfrs, when they seem to have handled other seemingly more complex things.

I've seen TM struggle with this for past 30 years. Is the drivetrain so much more complex to manage from a technical PoV? (almost like fly-by-wire, from front to rear)

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by RRA_Blogger

Why does Ashok Leyland not have luck with rear engines?

Because they (or any other maker in India) have not really tried to engineer a real 'rear end' HCV. Yes they launched one but expected the public to test it for them. Doesnt work like that, right?

Volvo have engineered the solution years ago. Tata Marcopolo and some other airport shuttle examples are running around but they cannot be compared against the volvo. If those airport shuttles ply between signals stop & go all day and over potholes and what not, they will break apart in no time.

[DicKy]

Both Ashok Leyland and TATA rear engined low floor buses have had pathetic reliability under KSRTC. Would frequently break down. Personally hated those buses since there are only a dozen seats really low floor. Rest of the seats are in varied heights with the rearmost seats being horrible to say the least.

But the current City Circular low floor buses which are front engined are a bliss. Flat low floor from the front end till the rearmost end. More comfortable to use. Can only remember seeing TATA Marcopolo, not sure if there are ALs too.

Is there any particular advantage for rear engined low floor buses? Except the NVH factor for the driver and front passengers?

[Anwesh]

Originally Posted by vharihar

Not just AL, but TM
I've seen TM struggle with this for past 30 years. Is the drivetrain so much more complex to manage from a technical PoV? (almost like fly-by-wire, from front to rear)

The AL Panther bus chassis was introduced around 1989/90, so that marks 32 years of struggle for AL

The Tata Divo luxury coach was better than the Volvo B7R. The few operators who purchased it were happy, but passanger perception of TATA not being a premium brand went against it. Even MB faced this, as passangers perceived Volvo as the ultimate luxury bus.

The Divo would have fared better if TaMo had used the Hispano brand on it, without the TATA logo.

Regards,

Anwesh

[vharihar]

I used to work for TM in Pune in early 90's (called Telco then). We used the extensive company bus fleet for commute to/from office (Tata buses, obviously, all with body built by RUBY coach builders, Mumbai). 2-3 buses amongst these were low floor RE buses with body built by RUBY. So I had an occasion to travel in these in early 1990's about 8-9 times. They were extra long, and silent, and I used to look fwd to travel in them.

But sad to say, we'd hear of them breaking down often, and a substitute bus would be sent to us.

So clearly, TM too has been struggling with RE buses for 30+ years.

Can someone knowledgeable shed some light on why they're finding it difficult to crack the technical challenges here?

[vharihar]

@Mods, can you please edit the title of this thread to read "... Tata Motors and Ashok Leyland ..."?

[YD14]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Tata Marcopolo and some other airport shuttle examples are running around but they cannot be compared against the volvo. If those airport shuttles ply between signals stop & go all day and over potholes and what not, they will break apart in no time.

Delhi Transport Corporation has large number of Marcopolo RE low floor buses running daily in Delhi and they seem quite reliable since DTC hasn't purchased any new buses since ages. Although last procured buses were RE low floor CNG buses from JBM, I believe.

[vharihar]

Originally Posted by YD14

Delhi Transport Corporation has large number of Marcopolo RE low floor buses running daily in Delhi and they seem quite reliable since DTC hasn't purchased any new buses since ages. Although last procured buses were RE low floor CNG buses from JBM, I believe.

The DTC TM RE buses, while aplenty and are running fine, have aged very badly, despite being maintained by TM themselves if I'm not mistaken. Most of them are in ramshackle condition, and all have a very poor stance with the rear being low slung and front raised up, such a stance looks aged and tired. Besides, the AC is turned off in many of them (probably to avoid losing power).

Come to Blore and see the plentiful Volvo buses operating since over a decade, they look super great and age excellently, all with fully functional ACs and excellent power.

[YD14]

Originally Posted by vharihar

The DTC TM RE buses, while aplenty and are running fine, have aged very badly, despite being maintained by TM themselves if I'm not mistaken. Most of them are in ramshackle condition, and all have a very poor stance with the rear being low slung and front raised up, such a stance looks aged and tired. Besides, the AC is turned off in many of them (probably to avoid losing power).

True. These do look badly aged and under-powered from the outside. Certainly don't inspire more people to travel on them.
Volvo with its UD bus division has captured the urban low floor market in South.

What Tata and AL need to do is acquire expertise from Europe like JBM has done by acquiring or partnering with bus companies from western Europe. Today all newly acquired buses by DTC or NMRC are from JBM and even many of the airlines are now running JBM buses at Delhi airport. Tata and AL already have R&D centres abroad and AL has already acquired UK's Switch mobility. Why haven't they been able to leverage these resources is beyond me.

[sandeepmdas]

Originally Posted by YD14

Why haven't they been able to leverage these resources is beyond me.

IMHO, they won't be focusing on ICE buses anymore. The future is electric. KA has already announced their intention to put 35,000 e-buses by the end of 2030. It is only a matter of time before other states too switch, just a question of when.

Volvo will continue to rule the interstate services, irrespective of EV or ICE, due to the premium brand perception as rightly said by TBHPian Anwesh. Volvo vs other buses is analogues to the iPhone vs android handsets; case closed.

The question is, will TM and AL be able to maintain the current position in the commuter EV segment in future? I think they should start with school and institutional fleet markets.

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Because they (or any other maker in India) have not really tried to engineer a real 'rear end' HCV.

The last thing I want to hear is a passenger HECV catching fire. True nightmare scenario.

[landcruiser123]

Many of the basic Ashok Leyland and Tata motors buses (especially the ones indicated in the pictures) are built to a cost.


I'm guessing the rear-engined buses are technologically a little more complicated as:
1. Having long linkages the entire length of the bus for shifting (manual transmission) would be many points of failures
2. Shift by wire (basically AMT with the electronic actuators) would be a very expensive system compared to a conventional manual transmission?

Also, does anyone know how easy is it to access the engine components of a rear-engined bus for repairs?

[vharihar]

Originally Posted by sandeepmdas

Volvo will continue to rule the interstate services, irrespective of EV or ICE, due to the premium brand perception as rightly said by TBHPian Anwesh. Volvo vs other buses is analogues to the iPhone vs android handsets; case closed.

This is an uninformed viewpoint. Unlike personal items like phones and cars that are aspirational in nature, for commercial vehicles travellers don't notice the brand at all. If you provide adequately comfortable seating and interiors, it'll still sell well even if it's a TM or an AL.

Originally Posted by sandeepmdas

The last thing I want to hear is a passenger HECV catching fire. True nightmare scenario.

True. One of the technical challenges for RE buses must be adequate air intake and ventilation and cooling for the rear engine. Again, I want to know: When Volvo has this figured out, why can't TM and AL figure it out, after so many years and that too now with possibility of digging into collaborations for help?

[lina]

There were many cases of Volvo buses also catching on fire. Im pretty sure there is a cooling problem with these buses. Also, in a head-on collision with another truck/bus, the first 10 rows are a definite gonner.

[GeeTee TSI]

Historically India has been plying trucks under the garb of buses, with no bus specific chassis, drivetrain or suspension till early noughties (that's decades by international standards). Probably there wasn't any R&D effort from the OEMs nor market demand

That said, the interstate AL front engined coaches are very refined with engine smoothness sometimes rivalling the Volvos (own perception). However inside the passenger compartment thanks to better NVH engineering, the Volvos seem quieter.

I wonder if automatic transmissions also fell behind on priorities of homegrown OEMs along with rear engine configuration