[fhdowntheline]

I guess its a tough choice between clawing back market share vs maintaining / improving hard product quality. Given India's growth potential and lofty ambitions set by the government, it would be necessary to expand first, hence you have ex Delta B777 LRs in Delta config, and brand new A350s in Aeroflot config that may be introduced. Looks like some of the hard product inconsistencies will stay for a while. I guess even some of the other major carriers went through these "pangs" as they went thru those mega mergers in the 2000's. like AA gobbling up TWA, US Airways , United and its mergers, Delta and its mergers etc. I think media should cut some slack as there is just too much focus and expectation. And it does distract the attention from more pressing operational and management issues.

[anjan_c2007]

Air India has today reported about a woman passenger being bitten by a scorpion on its Nagpur- Mumbai flight no AI 630. The incident happened on April 23, 2023 and the passenger was treated in a hospital in Mumbai upon landing and discharged.

Such nagging and unfortunate incidents with Air India continue to emerge one after the other. Post its takeover, it has increasingly come under the media scanner, especially for the wrong reasons. Under the older management during the last years, such media reports emerged once in a while. This was perhaps because media believed that there is not much use in flogging a dead horse.

Such incidents happen when the airplane is not properly checked and fumigated for unwanted living and non living objects when its static.

News link :

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...351114248.html

[Mustang Sammy]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Air India has today reported about a woman passenger being bitten by a scorpion on its Nagpur- Mumbai flight no AI 630. The incident happened on April 23, 2023 and the passenger was treated in a hospital in Mumbai upon landing and discharged.

Damn that’s scary. What next, snakes on the plane?

Hopefully it wasn’t a ScorpioN sent by Mahindra to sabotage Tata.

[SuperGirl_Dad]

A nice review of Air India flight. Hope the next video brings more info from the management side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udqr-OnQY9c

Still a lot of scope for improvement. Hope new management can make the required changes.

PS: not affiliated with the channel in anyway. Just follow Sam views on aviation world.

[chinkara]

Ok, now it is time to give the considered verdict - No.

I had noted some improvements earlier in food quality and timeliness. However, these are offset by some fatal flaws that remain, and I am sorry to say, will remain.

Over the last 3-4 months I have done a lot of travelling and have the following observations:
1. The boarding remains arbitrary and chaotic as ever - it is not that boarding will start 30 min before take-off and end 15 min before takeoff. It can start anywhere between 45 to 20 min before departure.
2. The app and the website is amazingly bad, In fact thinking of selling TCS stocks after experiencing these "products"
3. Earlier sometimes (rarely) you used to get people who would actually try to solve the problem - now I have seen increasing instances of "computer says no"
4. most importantly, a vast majority of employees continue to exhibit sarkari culture like chatting among themselves when a customer is waiting and so fore.

Merging Vistara into AI will make me very sad. Wish they had merged AI into Vistara retaining Vistara leadership.

[Comrade]

Some candid thoughts from Air India CEO about airline turn-around.

https://youtu.be/T-5ZWKrxB20

[goandude]

My family took Air India flights Bangalore Delhi Seoul and Tokyo Delhi Bangalore. State of the aircraft interior was poor, seats uncomfortable and worn. Food was average, service was average, there was nothing special for our little one unlike other carriers. Overall, better to avoid flying this airline if possible

[anjan_c2007]

AI Pune-Delhi flight (AI-850) passengers duly reached Delhi after 24 hours via Jaipur and Gwalior. The airplane started from Pune with 150 passengers on board on 25/05, at 6.50 pm, touched Delhi skies by 9.50 pm buy was not allowed to land owing to bad weather. It was diverted to Jaipur, where too it could not land. The flight reached Gwalior by 12.30 am. Soon after landing, its lights and AC's conked off. Some passengers shouted but there was silence on the crew's part. They were deboarded only at 3.30 am and were in the airport terminal building. The nightmarish experience continued throughout the night and come dawn, passengers were told that in fact not only the lights and AC's but the whole airplane was unfit for flight - a case of multi-organ failure. Passengers were given the choice of staying in a hotel or to move by road. Finally, Volvo bus/cabs were engaged for their journey to Delhi that departed by 9.00 am. They reached Delhi by 6.30 pm on Friday, 26/05.

That was a horrendous journey by air and road lasting 23 hours 40 minutes for the 150 passengers. Hence, if someone has emergencies like attending events or boarding connecting flights/trains these are quite disturbing moments to outrightly throw our plans haywire.

The relevant question is "how long will AI still remain a PSU?"

The link:-

http://toi.in/iCWX7a54

[SedateGuy]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

AI Pune-Delhi flight (AI-850) passengers duly reached Delhi after 24 hours via Jaipur and Gwalior. The airplane started from Pune with 150 passengers on board on 25/05, at 6.50 pm, touched Delhi skies by 9.50 pm buy was not allowed to land owing to bad weather. It was diverted to Jaipur, where too it could not land. The flight reached Gwalior by 12.30 am.

That was a horrendous journey by air and road lasting 23 hours 40 minutes for the 150 passengers. Hence, if someone has emergencies like attending events or boarding connecting flights/trains these are quite disturbing moments to outrightly throw our plans haywire.

The relevant question is "how long will AI still remain a PSU?"

Just curious how is Air India responsible for being denied landing permission?

If one feels so strongly about the so called poor service, they should just boycott Air India, it's not like they have a monopoly. Neither on flights nor on cancellations/delays which happen on equal measure on all airlines.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by SedateGuy

Just curious how is Air India responsible for being denied landing permission?

Thanks for your feedback. Please also comment on how the airplane's AC's, lights conked off and finally the plane itself was declared unfit for any further journey at 3.30 am.

[SedateGuy]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Thanks for your feedback. Please also comment on how the airplane's AC's, lights conked off and finally the plane itself was declared unfit for any further journey at 3.30 am.

Airplanes are mechanical, they can breakdown any time. Decades of government neglect and non renewal of assets can't be over come in a year. Also you have to admit you weren't exactly at a large service base of the airline which would have a running service centre in the middle of the night.

As far as road trips go a choice of hotel room was given. I have faced worse at the hands of IndiGo. It would be illogical to expect miracles overnight, and if yet one feels so strongly about it there are always alternate and a choice of boycotting AI.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by SedateGuy

Just curious how is Air India responsible for being denied landing permission?

If one feels so strongly about the so called poor service, they should just boycott Air India, it's not like they have a monopoly. Neither on flights nor on cancellations/delays which happen on equal measure on all airlines.

Permit me to disagree. An airliner has a minimum equipment list. If those are functioning, and other pieces not on the MEL are not {subject to limits] the airliner is still considered air worthy. For an airliner to be declared unfit to fly all of a sudden indicates a build up of near failures for one to maybe twelve flights ago. equipment on an airliner with its (a) ruggedness; (b) first, second and often third back up systems; and (c) early warnings well before hand, don't just pack up. This indicates things were cracking at the edges a while back.

Occasionally a bird strike or design failure (latest P&W engines for e.g.) cause sudden failures. But normally in each check one would take note and formally record pieces that are getting stressed, need watching but don't yet need replacement. That is why the airline via its CAMO* department should always know which of its machines are at risk of going AWOL. Air India's CAMO department isn't doing its job.

If you are saying Air India's warning to its potential customers is caveat emptor then that is a pity. A certain minimum standard of service, courtesy, attitude, ownership is expected from the airline and the crew. This expectation is a mix of law + the expectation setting by the airline itself through a thousand direct & indirect communications. Pardon my saying this but in light of this to tell the customer to go lump it sounds a trifle unfair.

* Continuous Airworthiness Management Organization.

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Thanks for your feedback. Please also comment on how the airplane's AC's, lights conked off and finally the plane itself was declared unfit for any further journey at 3.30 am.

+1
How long were the lights and AC off before the crew came on the intercom or otherwise communicated with the pax. How long was it before the ground power was connected and lights/AC came on ?

Dear @SedateGuy, Just saw this fresh post. The facts:-

Originally Posted by SedateGuy

Airplanes are mechanical, they can breakdown any time.

Can't say I agree with you even one bit. Are you an aeronautical engineer? Airliners do not announce a breakdown all of a sudden. A competent CAMO can spot the trouble well in advance. After having conducted checks & other maintenance procedures on over 2000 airliners of over 50 airlines from the 747 to the A318 I am very clear of what I write. This is not an opinion.

Decades of government neglect and non renewal of assets can't be over come in a year.

Depending on the aircraft and the check involved {described in terms of flying hours or landing cycles} a check could take 5 days to 4 weeks. If you are doing a full rehab of the seats and toilets add another week plus. So we shall cheerfully agree to disagree. Pleased to address with hard facts any other misconceptions you may have.

On our aviation threads, and this is one, we attempt to maintain a decorum of staying with facts, knowledge and courtesy towards fellow members. My aviation threads are not another typical social media outlet. I request we stay with these standards.

[wanderer4x4]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A certain minimum standard of service, courtesy, attitude, ownership is expected from the airline and the crew..

This is such a nice, powerful statement coming from you V.Narayan ji. Only if AI and the crew understood this statement, half of the complaints would have got resolved or not arisen.

Just got off from an Air India flight as return leg of an international trip and following is my review of an "out of the world" experience. Apologies for the long post.
I am very sorry to say that all the flak and some more that Air India receives is actually fully justified. Let me clarify first that I was actually an Air India "loyal customer" even before the Tata takeover out of the national carrier sentiments and tended to ignore minor glitches that I faced in my travels. For my international travel, my experience was with Thai, Sri Lankan, Emirates, Qantas and Cathay Pacific till now but not Air India on long haul. So while planning this holiday, when I saw the direct Delhi - Paris and Milan - Delhi AI flights, I lapped these up. I could have saved some money by going with a flight with stopover like the Indigo via Istanbul (through Turkish) or the middle eastern carriers. But, the direct flights and Air India combo meant that I ignored slight savings and booked AI with high hopes that after so many months of Tata takeover some improvements must have taken place. And how fabulously mistaken I was.

Onward journey: Delhi - Paris
Aircraft - Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner (VT-ANK)

Except the take off and landing which were on time, nothing much to write home about. A sad, tired aircraft with loose tray table, broken window shade controllers and broken IFE remote. Of the 3 seats that we occupied, 2 had non functional IFE screens and the 3rd one had a mind of its own. Never mind, said the ever patient and indulgent me as I had my content downloaded on my phone. Only that I'll have to charge my phone in between and yes the seats do have power points. Only that when I wanted to use them, none were working. No problem, for what purpose then I'm carrying my power bank. I can't expect AI to take care of such frivolous things. They have a much bigger job of running an airline and the crew have other more important job than to attend to these issues raised by pesky travellers. So, true to our pesky self, when I pointed out the IFE screen to a crew she just knocked on the screen a couple of times and simply shrugged her shoulders and said, "not working" as if I didn't know that. And with a swing of her arms she also made clear to me that many other screens are also not working, as if to say that I'm not the only one suffering through this and so I better clam up.

Well, let's wait for the snacks and drinks then. And yay, here they come. Aah, only that the Coke that was poured into a paper glass was at room temperature. Ahem, well, not too "bad" I suppose. Just as my daughter started saying that the warm Coke tasted weired, her mother said "good for you. Else you'd have caught a cold even before the trip started." Only then I realised how caring AI is to their customers and kicked myself for being so ungrateful.

Lunch was just about average. The evening hi-tea was again no great shakes and when I asked for the non-veg pack that they were serving, I was told that it was over. This despite me pre-selecting my meal option as non-veg at the time of booking itself. This is where the in cabin service department seriously needs to work upon. Most other airlines have the customer food selection records and crews hand out the same accordingly. AI is beyond such trivialities. True to the style of a maharaja doling out alms, they just hand over the trays without any concern for your pre-booked selection. Hence, you may not always get what you had booked.

Anyways, to cut a long story short, eventually though VT-ANK did get us to Paris on time. And who am I to crib about other things then.

Return flight - Milan - Delhi (VT-ANK)

I checked the flight history and realised that most of the days have huge delays in this sector. I kept tracking the flight for the day of my journey and to my luck or ill luck, it was VT-ANK once again that was deployed on this route. Well, no worries, we already were friends and I thought that over these 18 days, some improvements must have happened to the aircraft condition or at least service delivery. What do you think? Did it improve? Read on...

It seems that AI had realised that having some IFE screens working and some not on VT-ANK was an act of grave partiality and it demanded strong action. And how do they act? Yes ofcourse, by ensuring that none of the IFE screens in the entire aircraft work this time around. But I already had my cache of content downloaded on my phone. And yes, you remember, I need to charge my phone in between? And you know that the under seat power points do not work? Yes, correct, because these were the same seats that I had occupied on my onward trip. Since, it was a single PNR I had just blocked the same seat numbers. But, I digress. Coming to the story, as supposedly the smart one to not give a chance to AI to torment me this time around, I'd already anticipated such minor glitches. I'd fully charged my power bank and kept it in my carryon bag and put it in the overhead bin for taxi and takeoff. With my phone battery at 13%, after levelling up, when I tried to get my bag, I realised AI is still the smarter one and has many tricks to stump you. And silly me thought I'll trump AI in its own backyard? Noways..but I digress again. After the crew had closed the overhead bin before take off, it now refused to open. And there remains my wallet, cash, cards, passport, house keys and power bank. And true to the zen like unshakeable qualities that the crew posses, they just shrugged and said it looks like some issue with the lock, so technicians will check it once in Delhi. Further conversation with the crew goes something like this.

"And will the technician be ready to come in as soon as we land?"
"Well, can't say. It's the commercial department who looks after these things."
"But I have a connecting flight to catch, can you please pass on a message to the technical team beforehand so that they are ready to come in as soon as we land?"
"Can't say anything now whether the technicians are available or not. Let's see."

And thus we land, again on time. So what if after traveling for almost 24 hours, (as I had started the day in Rome the previous morning) now I had my money, passport, house keys locked with a dead phone in hand and a connecting flight to catch. Sounds really exciting. Yeah..

Dinner and morning tea came with terrible tasting food. But, this can be excused considering they had picked these indian items from Italy, but what can't be excused is the dour faced service or the lack of it. I'd asked for some water to go with the cold, hard bun and the dry croissant and I was told that he'll bring it shortly. That shortly never came for 30 mins and so I went to the rear galley where all the crew were busy conversing and told another crew that I'd asked for water long back but didn't receive. After I returned to my seat, the crew whom I'd first requested for water came to me and told me in no uncertain terms that he is not happy with me telling around people that I was not served water. Couldn't I see that he was busy and do I think that he will come back with water for one when he'll in any case bring water for all at the time of bringing the clearance cart? But if someone requires water while eating the food, then? These aspects make a huge difference to the overall experience.

After landing, when I checked with the crew at the gate regarding the technicians and my bag, the curt reply was that we've asked them to see what can be done. Not a word of apology, not any display of empathy. Rather I was told, "jab tak aap nehin jayenge hum bhi nahi ja sakte, ab off duty hone ke baad bhi. Toh aapke liye jitni jaroori hain jaldi jaana, hamare liye usse jyada jaroori hain." Meaning till the time you are here we also can't leave the aircraft despite being off duty now. So it's even more important for us. Can you imagine an airline employee making such a statement with a straight face that it doesn't matter what happens to you, more important is that because of you we are also stuck. And her look almost conveyed the message that its almost my fault that my bag was stuck there.

Anyways, after waiting for a long time the technicians came and almost 1 hour after landing, managed to open the bin not with the tools that they were carrying, rather by picking the lock with a fork. Seriously, this is what was remaining for me to witness. Picking of a lock of a 787.

There were other instances of crew attitude and lack of service orientation but for the sake of not dragging the post any further, I just conclude by saying, "AI, never again!" Only if the staff had followed a little bit of what Mr Narayan had posted in the quoted lines viz courtesy, proper service attitude and ownership, most of these issues would not have stung so much. And mind you, a smiling service with empathy can win over most customers even in face of deficient infrastructure and it doesn't cost a dime.

[anjan_c2007]

The Rajkot-Delhi Air India flight on 23/07 (Sunday evening last) was a victim of the rulebook. The flight was delayed due to operational reasons and as a result, the cockpit crew submitted that they had exceeded the duty hours and so it was no more of flying and piloting for them. Its called Flight Duty Time Limit (FTDL) that was exceeded and AI stated that operational reasons held up the flight AI 404 and soon after such regulatory norms for the cockpit crew became applicable.

There were 100 passengers including three sitting MP's. Those who had to urgently move to Delhi were taken by road to Ahmedabad, where they boarded the Ahmedabad-Delhi flight.

The full news:-

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/e...icle-102087253

Rules are rules and need to be adhered to. But suppose an airplane while flying forcelands in some remote airport, is inordinately delayed but is after many hours allowed to fly to its destination. The cockpit crew exceeds the FDTL but at the remote location no substitute cockpit crew is available. In such a situation will the airplane and its passengers get grounded at that remote location.

The cockpit crew can also exceed their FDTL while they are continuously airborne due to landing permissions being denied. In such situations will the cockpit crew exit the cockpit while the airplane is airborne?

Blaming AI here is illogical. They walked a tight tope with the regulator on one hand and the passengers on the other. The regulatory guidelines hence need some tweaking to meet emergent contingencies of these kinds.

[Candy$Cars]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

The Rajkot-Delhi Air India flight on 23/07 (Sunday evening last) was a victim of the rulebook. The flight was delayed due to operational reasons and as a result, the cockpit crew submitted that they had exceeded the duty hours and so it was no more of flying and piloting for them.
Rules are rules and need to be adhered to. But suppose an airplane while flying forcelands in some remote airport, is inordinately delayed but is after many hours allowed to fly to its destination. The cockpit crew exceeds the FDTL but at the remote location no substitute cockpit crew is available. In such a situation will the airplane and its passengers get grounded at that remote location.

The cockpit crew can also exceed their FDTL while they are continuously airborne due to landing permissions being denied. In such situations will the cockpit crew exit the cockpit while the airplane is airborne?

Blaming AI here is illogical. They walked a tight tope with the regulator on one hand and the passengers on the other. The regulatory guidelines hence need some tweaking to meet emergent contingencies of these kinds.

I am not sure I am correct so fellow bhpians with more knowledge can correct me.

In case of diversions, there is some relaxation to FDTL limits during which the crew can fly back to the original destination.
Otherwise, the airline will have to fly in a new crew to operate the aircraft. Similarly, they take the FDTL in account while the route is given to the crew as to not cross it while the plane is in air, lest they may have to jump out & parachute to safety

Civil Aviation regulators around the world are very strict about FDTL limits as many accidents have been reportedly caused due to the cockpit crew being tired & unattentive as they exceeded their FDTL. Remember, the cockpit crew has to operate flight next day too and so if they exceed the FDTL today, it will reduce the time gap available for a good rest for the next flight.
All these norms have evolved over the years with countless accidents, innocent lives lost and lessons learned from them have made Civil Aviation as safe as it is today.