[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

Pilots can come across situations where they have to decide whether its a valid/sufficiently serious complaint, or not, based on how the crew would've reported the incident.

What stops a Captain from getting a fuller report or stepping into the cabin to check himself? Would you be so callous if you were the pax pissed upon?

IMO the crew report & their discretion to make decisions must hold more value than the passengers' claim.

Pray why? Are cabin crew superior humans? Would this be your attitude if the pax peed upon was a man?

Who is to decide on what extent crew is responsible for the procedures after such alleged incidents, what immediate action is required to constrain alleged civil torts / criminal acts among passengers & what quantum of compensation is enough ?

the DGCA rule book, the police and the courts. Surely you are aware of that.

My only concern is, if the crew is too busy comprehending & keeping track of such endless alleged disputes, where does this end but for a few discretionary powers, how will they viably carry out critical flight tasks?

The law of the land is very clear about the powers and the responsibilities of a Captain of an airliner and of a ship at sea.

I'm not trying to defend bad attitude by flight staff.

But that is exactly what you are doing with your post in the face of overwhelming evidence. Your post gives the impression you are sympathetic to the Captain. If this Captain was in my employ, as many were once upon a time, a summary sack with a strong complaint with the regulator and if lawyers advised a police complaint against the Captain for negligence of his duty of care would be par for the course.

Clearly your understanding of what is acceptable and what is not is at variance with the law and aeronautical convention. As an old hand from this industry permit me to put down a few question and answers:-

Q. When is it okay to pee on a fellow pax
A. Never ever

Q. When is it okay to keep an aged pax seated on a jumpseat for two hours, traumatized by an event, and deny her a proper clean seat despite empty seats being available
A. Almost Never Ever

Q. Does the cabin crew need permission of the Capt to move a pax to first class in an emergency situation?
A. Not to best of my knowledge in almost all difficult situations. Cabin crew routinely upgrade pax to first class based on certain criteria. That seat sold by the airline was unfit for human use after the urination incident. It is the legal responsibility of the airline crew to get her a fresh seat. Imagine a situation where the seat has broken.

Q. When is it okay for a male pax to expose himself to a female pax and indulge in a gross act
A. Never

Q. When is it okay under law for an airline cabin crew to try and intimidate a victim and disrespect her wishes about not wanting to see the perpetrators face while giving priority to the offenders wish to 'beg for forgiveness'.
A. Never

I have put this Q&A up here as clearly at least one member here is not clear about how virtually everything about this incident is grossly incorrect on part of Air India, the crew and the criminal offender.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

To claim after a month, after having accepted money, that "despite her unwillingness", she was "forced by crew" to "confront the accused" (who was apparently pleading for forgiveness) and negotiate with him, "further disorienting her". This, to me, seems like a shakedown.

How does it matter? She can make the complaint even after three or six months. The principle is the same as the one behind the "me too" movement. The victim, a 70 year old lady travelling alone, would have been traumatized and in shock. She would have felt alone and helpless. And under the circumstances if she was hustled by the crew for a compromise, combined with the drunken fool crying in front of her, might have agreed with disgust.

What is this thirty days no fly ban on the offender? Suppose he has come on a two month holiday how is it going to affect him? I simply can't comprehend how a person can be so drunk as not to realize he was urinating on a fellow passenger.

[WorkingGuru]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

What stops a Captain from getting a fuller report or stepping into the cabin to check himself? Would you be so callous if you were the pax pissed upon?

The trust that the professional cabin crew would describe any incident accurately at first instance.

Pray why? Are cabin crew superior humans?

Would this be your attitude if the pax peed upon was a man?...

Absolutely false. My post is NOT founded anything basis the gender of the passenger or the crew.

But that is exactly what you are doing with your post in the face of overwhelming evidence. Your post gives the impression you are sympathetic to the Captain.

Exactly not! I clearly wrote that for the crew & pilot.

Originally Posted by Gansan

How does it matter? She can make the complaint even after three or six months. The principle is the same as the one behind the "me too" movement. The victim, a 70 year old lady travelling alone, would have been traumatized and in shock. She would have felt alone and helpless. And under the circumstances if she was hustled by the crew for a compromise, combined with the drunken fool crying in front of her, might have agreed with disgust.

My post clearly says that I hold him responsible for his actions.

The crew however, IMO may not have done as much harm as being alleged across news media. The 70yr old lady has accepted money as compensation as a resolution but came back with an FIR after a month. This delay is crucial to consider if the complaint was an afterthought. Such a complaint against the man is fine, but to allege that the crew & pilot acted against her interest & against her wishes, is not fully believable at face value.

What is this thirty days no fly ban on the offender? Suppose he has come on a two month holiday how is it going to affect him? I simply can't comprehend how a person can be so drunk as not to realize he was urinating on a fellow passenger.

Because the airline cannot legally ban the passenger beyond 30days. IMO the horrible person should be barred from public transport for life, but ofcourse the law should take its course.

[CarNerd]

A second incident! What's happening?? Should Air India be banned? Horrible!!



Link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mon...17171.html/amp

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

The crew however, IMO may not have done as much harm as being alleged across news media. The 70yr old lady has accepted money as compensation as a resolution but came back with an FIR after a month. This delay is crucial to consider if the complaint was an afterthought. Such a complaint against the man is fine, but to allege that the crew & pilot acted against her interest & against her wishes, is not fully believable at

Initially when I saw the news of the crew being derostered I felt it's an overreaction. After that I read in detail the description of the events in various articles. Like V.Narayan has explained, I feel the crew should have shown a far higher amount of care and concern for the affected passenger irrespective of the age or gender. I can't imagine someone walking up to me and relieving themselves no matter what their condition might have been. And if this has happened, then I would consider this the worst thing to ever happen to anyone on a flight apart from acts of God or terror. And the least the crew can do is to accommodate the passenger in the best possible way and also cross their line of duty to make the situation better. This isn't some complaint about bad food or faulty ICE in the flight.

The complaint might be an after thought in your view but when the incident is pretty disturbing it would take some time for the affected person to actually decide to react. Hence while the initial apologies might have calmed down the situation, the mental distress would have been far severe. In my experience, recently a bad check in experience at a 4 star hotel had the manager walk up to my entire family the next day during breakfast and profusely tendering apology to almost everyone since we were a group of six people and none of the three rooms were properly prepared. And I didn't escalate the issue to anyone to receive such a response. I just mentioned in the reception that I wasnt happy about this ordeal and our sleep was delayed due to this.

Compared to that, I would consider any full service airline equivalent to at least a 4 star hotel and expect similar service standards. My experience with AI was not even close to this before Tata took over hence the first thing I expected after the takeover was that they would get their hospitality experts and teach the cabin crew a thing or two about customer interaction.

[shankar.balan]

Someone forwarded this one on whatsapp.
Looks like a rash of lavatory inspired behaviour in public.

https://news.yahoo.com/passenger-poo...211710826.html

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

A second incident! What's happening?? Should Air India be banned? Horrible!!

Sure, it's happened on Air India twice but who do you think the anger should be directed against - the airline or so-called educated people who behave like animals the moment they're off foreign soil? And now BA is getting onboard too apparently

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Vice President of Wells Fargo?? And we keep blaming poor financial status and illiteracy for bad behaviour! The old lady should get a huge monetary compensation from both the airline. That person should be in jail for at least one year and banned from flying for 3 years. All the crew including the captain should be sacked and shouldn't be employed for some time.

If it was in my power, I would have dismantled that airplane and sold off its parts. Such atrocious people, airline, crew should be taught a lesson. The problem is we take such things lightly, make fun of the airline and forget it. Such incidents should never be forgiven and never be forgotten. And some talk about teaching to the whole world.

+1. Shameful. Air India's response to this incidence could have either become a good example for how to run or how not to run an Airline. We know which one they chose. I mean, where does Air India draw the line for basic customer rights? How low is it?

By the way just for everyone's knowledge, don't take the official titles of American companies too literally. They hand out Vice President, President, AVP, General Manager titles like serviettes at a cafe.

Here's a quick search for Vice Presidents in Wells Fargo.


Most people (who are not directly involved/related to the accused/staff/victim) will forget this incident and move on. Some may not and will think really hard before putting their elderly parents or teen/preteen children alone in an Air India flight. We could do this with so much confidence in an Emirates or Singapore Airlines. I personally trust them. Emirates used to offer door-to-door pick up and drop for my niece during her college days in India. Zero issues ever.

Like @CrazyDriver posted in another thread, why did people even assume that customer service will get better because the TATA group bought Air India? It will be a miracle if Vistara didn't get worse. The Taj group of hotels may be a different experience.

[Durango Dude]

How drunk can you get to do this and the way the airline handled the incident is absolutely disgusting. Air India is on it's way to becoming the "No 1" airline, lietrally Tata or no Tata it's the mindset that needs to change and it's firmly set and seems to be going no where!!

[nagr22]

This whole Pee-Gate incident has made me realize one thing - we Indians and the great Indian media doesn't care about respecting the privacy of Individuals. Even before a case is fully investigated (only a show cause has been issued so far), the accused identity including his professional career has been made public to a point where in an unlikely event that this person did not cause the incident, he still has to face this shame for the rest of his life. Let's say he really did pee, shouldn't he be allowed to serve his punishment and IF he mended his ways and becomes a good citizen, shouldn't he be allowed to continue his normal life?
Even murderer's faces are covered by a black cloth until the case is over but here they have made everything including his linkedin profile public!

If you think pee-gate is the worst to have happened and Air India has to be banned due to it, you're in for a 'shitty' surprise that happened just a month before this incident. The culprit seems to be an European where privacy laws are taken seriously and you can see the contrast in which the news article has been written.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brit...-floor-2022-10

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Sure, it's happened on Air India twice but who do you think the anger should be directed against - the airline or so-called educated people who behave like animals the moment they're off foreign soil? And now BA is getting onboard too apparently

Both! How did it respond to the first incident? Did it help the old lady? Did it take any measures to make sure the accused was arrested? No. Infact it made the traumatized lady sit for an hour in one of the small staff seats even though there were 4 vacant business class seats and shamefully made her sit on her soiled seat for 2 hours. And you say the airline shouldn't be blamed. This behaviour is sufficient to bar the airline in my opinion.

[Comrade]

How can the staff be not trained on handling unruly behavior! It simply shows AI's training is lacking. Maybe its decades of sarkari management or whatever, but if Tatas and SIA don't correct this attitude right away then they can forget about their aspirations of being a world-class airline.

PS: There will always be shitty passengers everywhere in this world. Some racial, some entitled, some inebriated etc etc. Their education, wealth, globe-trotting will not make them any better. It is airline's responsibility to be prepared for such situations.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

Because the airline cannot legally ban the passenger beyond 30days. IMO the horrible person should be barred from public transport for life, but ofcourse the law should take its course.

Seems like a silly excuse.

Stand-up comedian Kunal Kamra was banned for six months by Indigo and indefinitely by Air India, Vistara and SpiceJet. So there is precedence! Has Air India’s rules changes in 2 years?

Extract from the Kunal Kamra article, none of which were followed in this case:

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation allows airlines to blacklist passengers for unruly behavior onboard but under conditions.

According to the rules, the pilot-in-command of an airline should make complaint, which has to be probed by an internal committee which includes retired district and sessions judge as chairman and representatives from a different scheduled airline, passengers’ association/consumer association/retired officer of Consumer Dispute Redressal as members to be set up by the airline.

The internal committee has to decide the matter within 30 days, and also specify the duration of the ban. During the period of pendency of the enquiry, the concerned airline may impose a ban on the said passenger.

[Chetan_Rao]

It's the most basic tenet of customer service to deescalate a situation first, then look to fix the issue.

There was a soiled seat, and there were vacant, comfortable seats to shift the distressed passenger to before doing anything else. Affording a distressed person basic dignity goes a long way in making them feel better.

Whatever happened next, Air India in-cabin customer service failed spectacularly at that first instance of asking, and the crew (including the captain who's ultimately in command) should be held responsible for their failure to provide the absolute basic customer service.

Events thereafter have already been debated and I have nothing new to say.

[Cyborg]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

@Cyborg, I do not know what industry or line of trade you are from that led you to these conclusions. I presume these conclusions have been drawn in innocence. In my time one of my businesses had a fleet of 25 to 28 business jets and employed a cabin crew team of over 70 to 80 or so. Based on my knowledge and experience of employing, training and managing these cabin crew personnel on innumerable international sectors over several years I cannot but disagree with statement above.

All,

Having situational awareness of what's going on in the cabin - social, technical or safety related, is what the crew are trained for {or ought to be}. Passengers over drinking is not a new issue. It is one of the most common types of incidents one is trained for handling and easing off the supply. Male pax from Asia, Africa & the old USSR in my experience are more likely to over drink than others. Yes, cabin crew work, is hard and taxing but the crew numbers are determined after assessing work loads and need for safety awareness & action. The size of a cabin crew compliment is a licensed number not an arbitrary one. And the business cabin has a fairly high cabin crew to passenger ratio. Yes the crew could not have anticipated that this worthy would do something so egregious but his over drinking was a warning. Them continuing to serve him was a fault line they crossed several times. And their entire conduct after the incident will be enshrined as a case study in training manuals hitherto.

Dear Mr. Narayan,

Thank you for being kind in saying what I said is due to innocence I can assure you Sir, it’s not that but actually more out of actual life/reality. The reality what I wrote and am writing below applies only to Air India (I am going to refer to Air India as AI henceforth) before the take over of Tata. I am not aware if things have changed after the takeover, can only hope they have. As I am sure you are fully aware that training, theory and then practicality in real life situations may be very, very different.

Rostering of cabin crew is an exact science as you put it, sure, however, it didn’t apply to Air India as a norm. Innumerable times their flights have operated with one, two and sometimes even three crew members short (3 is very rare, 2 happened and 1 quite common). It was very easy for crew members to “report sick” as it was called, not being sick mind you. The individual or even a family member would just call CCMCO or Cabin Crew Movement Control Office a few hours before a flight and report sick. Then CCMCO would try and pull out someone from the standby roster and if not possible then the flight would operate short. I am sure you will agree operating a flight short will only increase the work load/pressure. Disciplinary action would be extremely rare if at all. Only during festive days it would be strict. Another thing which applies, the tools of the trade as in the carts used by crew members for services (drinks, food etc) would be wonky more often than not, as in the wheels would not be working most times, the cart would need to be manhandled from the galley for the entire service. It is even more physically taxing than when things work as they are supposed to. There are many other things which made flying for AI tougher than other airlines or international airlines but this is enough or I will have to be writing a much more lengthier post

My reason for sharing all these details is to point out the hard work which crew from other airlines put in is exponentially increased for AI staff. The work, jet lag, dealing with irate passengers, drunk behaviour is magnified when they have to deal with a working environment which is not exactly as per international standards.

Now coming to your point of assessing when a passenger has had too much to drink and stopping his/her drinking. I assure you, this is the easiest part of an experienced crew members job. But having said that, in the real world it’s easier said than done. It has been done innumerable times too and what you read in the papers (this pissing incident and other unruly passenger behaviour, harassing female crew members etc) is only the tip of the iceberg, crew members have to deal with this much, much more.

Let me explain with an example of restricting a persons drinking, mind you this happens when the person is already high. Think about a normal party on ground, where you may even know the person. How easy is that? Not easy right? Now think about this special kind of jerk at 35,000 feet who is (mostly) drinking because it’s free and he/she thinks he has paid for the ticket which entitles him to drink. Such a person is extremely difficult to control (it’s done) but things can go south very easily and does many a times which you don’t read about but the crew take it in their stride and move on.

That is why I said what I said in this particular pissing incident, the crew must have had little to no warning he was going to do what he did. Blaming it entirely on the crew and going to their training is doing them a disservice. This person is in 14 days judicial custody I believe and only the harshest punishment being handed out to him may serve as a deterrent to others going forward and be helpful to the hardworking crew. Mind you (again practical world reality) this same jerk flying on an international airline will mostly be like a lamb (with foreign crew) even asking for water will be conducted in a soft voice, whereas on AI he is arrogant and thinks the crew members are his servants.

I hope I have been able to put across the actual difficulties faced by AI (more than others from the physical/mental stress angle) or any other crew members on board commercial flights. It’s high time the law steps in harshly and does it’s bit in making life easier on the crew and flyers. Glamour is what most people see without realising that it is an extremely tough job environment which takes a heavy toll on one’s physical and mental health.

I do maintain AI should have handled it better than try to sweep it under the carpet.

Cheers