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Originally Posted by Jeroen

I had not heard about the Netra AWACS plane. So I looked it up.

Came across this quite detailed article. Very interesting, very impressive!

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/defaul...April_2021.pdf

Jeroen

Great find this report! Thanks for sharing. Lots of technical detail on all the various subsystems.

Have a few questions as a result.

In the photo of the operator work station, it appears to have a regular wired mouse. From what I've seen of similar workstations in the military sphere, isn't it the norm to use a fixed trackball based mouse solution?

Given most of the subsystems are entirely indigenous, why restrict to only 3 of these platforms? Given their utility, surely at least 3 more at the bare minimum is an absolute must? Can they not purchase a few more Embraer platforms and just integrate the various systems on them? Or are they now fully vested in turning the ex IA A320s into Netra type AWACS? Because to me, surely the more practical solution is to field more of the albeit smaller but just as capable solution so that you have more of the assets at hand to deploy.

Similarly then DRDO or whoever is undertaking the task can simplify their goal to just looking to run a tanker conversion on the A320s rather than a jack of all trades platform.

[V.Narayan]

Medium Transport Aircraft Tender

https://idrw.org/following-the-annou...der-of-c-295m/

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le66467760.ece

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has initiated the process to find a replacement for the AN-32 transport aircraft in service. It has issued a Request For Information (RFI) for the procurement of a Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) with a carrying capacity of 18 to 30 tonnes.

The RFI was issued on December 9, 2022, and the earlier bid submission date of February 3 has now been extended till March 31.The RFI has asked aircraft manufacturers to indicate the scope of work related to MTA, which would be undertaken under Make in India under appropriate category with estimate of indigenous content mandatorily.

Also state the capability to undertake indigenous manufacture of systems, subsystems, components, consumables, spares, ammunition and materials of the main equipment and platform in India, either through its own subsidiary or in a Joint Venture and the time period for developing infrastructure for manufacture.

As a consequence of this tender the follow on order for the CN-295 will not be taken up. I think budget constraints are at play here as the CN-295 was to be procured for the Indian Navy and Indian Coastguard and looks like both these parts are off now.

The only two I see in the 18 to 30 tonne category are the Lockheed C-130J and the Embraer C390. The Russian IL-276 is still born so far and the Ukrainian Antonov An-178 has been at the prototype stage since 2015. It is unlikely we would order from Ukraine given the uncertainty . The Airbus Atlas 400M and Kawasaki C-2 are too large for this specification.

Embraer C390 below.

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Surely the Super Hercules must be a front runner given it's already in service and is a reliable workhorse. An order size of 40-80 isn't to be sniffed at and surely some private sector OEM can set up a partnership with Lockheed (or beef up an existing one).

On a slight tangent, with the big Airbus-Boeing deals announced at Aero India I couldn't help but feel Embraer weren't thrown any bones. I wonder if the MTA contract could be used towards bolstering ties with the Brazilians then by selecting their offering. I don't think the C-390 has had any major orders outside South America has it?

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Been seeing a bunch of tweets that either suggest the RAF is prematurely retiring its C-130Js or its outright selling them to focus on just having the C-17 and additional A-400M orders.

Not seen much conclusive but it's beginning to make me wonder that there can't be smoke without fire. If indeed the RAF is being forced to flog their Hercules, isn't there a handy opportunity for the IAF to profit on the cheap by going in for them? I'm sure there'll be plenty of interested parties. Though truth be told the whole rumour sounds a bit or as baffling as the Japanese deciding to cut their rotary wing airlift fleet.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has initiated the process to find a replacement for the AN-32 transport aircraft in service. It has issued a Request For Information (RFI) for the procurement of a Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) with a carrying capacity of 18 to 30 tonnes.

IAF's decisions and choices continue to defy logic. The payloads of An-32 and C-295 are an exact match. So how does it make sense to order MTA with payload of 18 to 30 tonnes to replace the An32, instead of ordering locally made C-295s? We have over 100 An 32s. C-295 can replace most of them, if not all! What is the point of having so many aircraft types, all operated in sub-optimal numbers?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The RFI was issued on December 9, 2022, and the earlier bid submission date of February 3 has now been extended till March 31.

Who knows there might be further extensions! And this is just the RFI. The next stage would be RFP! After that trials! Then negotiations with L1!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The RFI has asked aircraft manufacturers to indicate the scope of work related to MTA, which would be undertaken under Make in India under appropriate category with estimate of indigenous content mandatorily. Also state the capability to undertake indigenous manufacture of systems, subsystems, components, consumables, spares, ammunition and materials of the main equipment and platform in India, either through its own subsidiary or in a Joint Venture and the time period for developing infrastructure for manufacture.

Indigenous manufacture is such a misused term in our country; for a modest order of 50-60 units, we can at best expect local assembly!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

As a consequence of this tender the follow on order for the CN-295 will not be taken up.

An order of just 56 planes makes domestic production unviable! We must ensure follow on orders!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I think budget constraints are at play here as the CN-295 was to be procured for the Indian Navy and Indian Coastguard and looks like both these parts are off now.

But we have the budget for MTAs?

Looking at the unduly long periods our procurement process is spread over, does it not make sense to create an MTA of our own? If we can design, develop and manufacture a 4+ generation combat aircraft, why can't we develop the MTA ourselves? The origin of C-295 can be traced back to Indonesia! If Indonesians can develop their own planes, so can we, provided we have the vision and foresight which we are completely lacking.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by directinjection

IAF's decisions and choices continue to defy logic. The payloads of An-32 and C-295 are an exact match. So how does it make sense to order MTA with payload of 18 to 30 tonnes to replace the An32, instead of ordering locally made C-295s? We have over 100 An 32s. C-295 can replace most of them, if not all! What is the point of having so many aircraft types, all operated in sub-optimal numbers?

I can think of two reasons 1) Inviting tenders where the C295 can likely win 2) HAL using their bureaucratic relations to elbow in on a genuine private enterprise threat. Losing a monopoly is a hard pill to swallow.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by directinjection

IAF's decisions and choices continue to defy logic. The payloads of An-32 and C-295 are an exact match. So how does it make sense to order MTA with payload of 18 to 30 tonnes to replace the An32, instead of ordering locally made C-295s? We have over 100 An 32s. C-295 can replace most of them, if not all! What is the point of having so many aircraft types, all operated in sub-optimal numbers?

With the decades requirements also increase of what is a medium lifter and what is a light lifter. The need for airlift abilities outstrip capability in all air forces except the USAF. In 1965 the An-12 with its normal payload of 16 tonnes was a heavy lifter. Today a 25 tonne payload would be considered a medium lifter. The MTA is not just a grown up replacement for the An-32 but also the sorely missed An-12 which category of aircraft never got filled because there were no alternatives other than the Hercules C-130J-300 and India and America's defence relations only thawed after 2008.. The MTA will help fill a gap in our inventory we have suffered from since the early 1990s after the An-12's retired. Similarly, a light liter once was the 2-tonne Dakota, then the 5-tonne HS748 and the equivalent today is the 9-tonne C-295.

Indigenous manufacture is such a misused term in our country; for a modest order of 50-60 units, we can at best expect local assembly!

Indeed it is assembly rather than manufacture but it is a start to a 180-degree shift and I suspect the Tata aerospace outfit will have other contracts over the next 3 decades. The key is not manufacture. The key is that the hide bound entrenched bureaucracy and the "only PSU's can serve the national interest" grip has been shunted aside. Given that we have tata & Airbus as the supplier I expect deliveries will be on schedule. Having suffered not one but two JVs with HAL in my time I cannot over emphasize the vice like vested attitudes that pervade the corridors of power to distribute the limited IAF budget only to HAL.




But we have the budget for MTAs?

Looking at the unduly long periods our procurement process is spread over, does it not make sense to create an MTA of our own? If we can design, develop and manufacture a 4+ generation combat aircraft, why can't we develop the MTA ourselves? [/quote]

[V.Narayan]

[quote=V.Narayan;5512394]With the decades requirements also increase of what is a medium lifter and what is a light lifter. The need for airlift abilities outstrip capability in all air forces except the USAF. In 1965 the An-12 with its normal payload of 16 tonnes was a heavy lifter. Today a 25 tonne payload would be considered a medium lifter. The MTA is not just a grown up replacement for the An-32 but also the sorely missed An-12 which category of aircraft never got filled because there were no alternatives other than the Hercules C-130J-300 and India and America's defence relations only thawed after 2008.. The MTA will help fill a gap in our inventory we have suffered from since the early 1990s after the An-12's retired. Similarly, a light liter once was the 2-tonne Dakota, then the 5-tonne HS748 and the equivalent today is the 9-tonne C-295.
Indeed it is assembly rather than manufacture but it is a start to a 180-degree shift and I suspect the Tata aerospace outfit will have other contracts over the next 3 decades. The key is not manufacture. The key is that the hide bound entrenched bureaucracy and the "only PSU's can serve the national interest" grip has been shunted aside. Given that we have tata & Airbus as the supplier I expect deliveries will be on schedule. Having suffered not one but two JVs with HAL in my time I cannot over emphasize the vice like vested attitudes that pervade the corridors of power to distribute the limited IAF budget only to HAL.

Looking at the unduly long periods our procurement process is spread over, does it not make sense to create an MTA of our own? If we can design, develop and manufacture a 4+ generation combat aircraft, why can't we develop the MTA ourselves?

I first read about the Light Combat Aircraft {LCA} in c.1985 in the early years of my career. I am now retired from career nos 1 and we are still trudging up that hill. Do we really wish to infllict that kind of damage on the IAF's depleting assets. I doubt the IAF can wait till 2045 AD for the home grown MTA.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

With the decades requirements also increase of what is a medium lifter and what is a light lifter. The need for airlift abilities outstrip capability in all air forces except the USAF. In 1965 the An-12 with its normal payload of 16 tonnes was a heavy lifter. Today a 25 tonne payload would be considered a medium lifter. The MTA is not just a grown up replacement for the An-32 but also the sorely missed An-12 which category of aircraft never got filled because there were no alternatives other than the Hercules C-130J-300 and India and America's defence relations only thawed after 2008.. The MTA will help fill a gap in our inventory we have suffered from since the early 1990s after the An-12's retired. Similarly, a light liter once was the 2-tonne Dakota, then the 5-tonne HS748 and the equivalent today is the 9-tonne C-295.

Reading the news about the fresh tender for MTAs, I got the impression that it was merely a plan to sabotage the C 295 project by limiting its Indian production to unviable numbers. I now learn that even the original Indo Russian MTA was meant to replace the An32s. I stand corrected.

On another note, I have always wondered why we retired the An12s three decades ago when the plane continues to fly around the world even today! If we can fly MiG 21s in the 21st century, we could have flown the An12s also!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Indeed it is assembly rather than manufacture but it is a start to a 180-degree shift and I suspect the Tata aerospace outfit will have other contracts over the next 3 decades.

We need to move beyond assembly which is something we were doing even in 1970s (HS 748). Should we not have progressed in these 50 years? I sincerely hope there are follow up orders for C 295 and parts are sourced from local vendors. I'm sure parts can be made here at lower cost, given Indian Rupee's absurd exchange rate against foreign currencies that bears no connection with Indian Rupee's purchasing power and which makes imported items a lot more expensive than they actually are.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The key is not manufacture. The key is that the hide bound entrenched bureaucracy and the "only PSU's can serve the national interest" grip has been shunted aside. Given that we have tata & Airbus as the supplier I expect deliveries will be on schedule. Having suffered not one but two JVs with HAL in my time I cannot over emphasize the vice like vested attitudes that pervade the corridors of power to distribute the limited IAF budget only to HAL.

I fully agree that competition is good. However, it is difficult to digest that a country of India's size and resources should remain merely an assembler of aircraft which is low end work.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I first read about the Light Combat Aircraft {LCA} in c.1985 in the early years of my career. I am now retired from career nos 1 and we are still trudging up that hill. Do we really wish to infllict that kind of damage on the IAF's depleting assets. I doubt the IAF can wait till 2045 AD for the home grown MTA.

In November 1981, I visited the India International Trade Fair in Delhi and spent a good amount of time in the freshly constructed Defence pavilion. In the HAL section, I saw a poster of the LCA! The project is that old! It's amazing how casually the Indian governments have treated the defence of our country! I think things were better in the days of Nehru when the PM took personal interest in projects like Marut.

A military transport aircraft is a lot less complex than a 4+ generation supersonic combat jet. We missed the bus by not having the confidence to start our own independent MTA project two decades ago when we instead chose to collaborate with the Russians. The agreement with Russia for MTA was signed on June 6, 2001 and we have reached nowhere! Long term vision and planning are alien to those who run Indian defence affairs. Our approach all along has been short term, ad hoc and reactive! We inevitably end up buying from abroad and that too in suboptimal numbers of too many types from too many sources! We succumb to pulls and pressures coming from different sources. The indifferent attitude of successive Prime Ministers towards indigenous defence projects has only aggravated the situation. We were more ambitious in 1950s!

[crdi]

Originally Posted by superbad

Very interesting article, as always. Would just like to issue a correction to the below :-


Actually the Srinagar airfield was not overrun by the enemy, they had reached till Baramulla, but they turned back to Pakistan to deposit the loot they had amassed so far. This gave our forces valuable time to land in Srinagar & stage a fightback. Of course, none of this was known to the troops of the 1st Battalion of the Sikh Regiment in the first Dakota to land in Srinagar (the civilian signal transmitter at Srinagar airport was not synced to the frequency used by the Indian Army/Air force). Hence, it circled the airfield a number of times just to be sure & then landed.
Nevertheless, the Dakota aircraft made an invaluable contribution to the 1947-48 war effort & was the sole reason why Srinagar did not get overrun by the enemy.

Apparently piloted by freedom fighter and former Orissa Chief Minister Mr Biju Patnaik. A Dakota used him, in his adventures, is on display at Bhubaneswar.

[PetrolRider]

Originally Posted by crdi

Apparently piloted by freedom fighter and former Orissa Chief Minister Mr Biju Patnaik. A Dakota used him, in his adventures, is on display at Bhubaneswar.

Long defunct Kalinga Airline' Dakota was used, but Biju Patnaik was not the person piloting the first plane landed. He followed though in subsequent run.
His heroic was to rescue former Precedent of Indonesia Dr. Sukarno in his civilian Dakota DC-47 dodging the Dutch air defence. Kalinga Airlines has mostly DC-3s.

Before the current Bhubaneswar Airport runway expansion, there used to be a access road to abandoned Kalinga Airlines hanger where there were few DC-3s in weathered condition. The access was blocked after the runway was expanded some 25 years ago, I have no idea what happened to those.

[directinjection]

Came across a good article on MTA acquisition.

About the shelving of the Indo-Russian MTA project, it says:

As with many such good plans, this too went to waste with the partnership almost unsalvageable by 2016. The Indian Air Force wasn’t happy with the selection of the PD-14M turbofan engines and some other design decisions taken by the Russians. Also, India wanted the MTA to operate in higher altitudes than the Russian design would allow. For their part the Russians wanted India to increase the program development budget, something that India vehemently opposed. These differences would see the entire program shelved in 2017.

About the capability gap between An32 and Il 76, it says:

While the C-295 may well go on to replace the An-32 the MTA requirement is rather different. The Indian Air Force operated the An-12 as a 20T airlift aircraft between 1961-1993 with some 65 aircraft serving. Once the An-12 was retired the IAF had a capability gap because while it had hundreds of HS-748, An-32 & Dorniers for lifts below ten tonnes and 17 massive Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft for lifts that weighed around 40 tonnes it had no aircraft to bridge the crucial 15-30T gap in an economical manner.

About the need for higher payload capacity than An32/C295 class, it says:

One must also understand that Airlift load requirements are increasing as the Indian military modernises. While the An-32 sufficed to lift unarmored jeeps and Gypsies to the frontline, the freighters of tomorrow will have to have the capability to lift armored 4x4 & 8x8 platforms that will be far heavier. Similarly, a single 105mm Shell weighs around 20 kgs each 155mm shell around 45kgs, the recent conflict in Ukraine shows how artillery shells are used up by the thousands every day.

A lift of only 5,000 shells daily would weigh 225 tonnes and need 25 odd flights by C-295 sized aircraft or 10 flights by a KC-390-sized lifter underlining the need for large freighters that are small enough to land and operate from frontline airfields. It was keeping all the above in mind, that the Indian Air force released a new RFI for the MTA requirement in December 2022.

Purely on merit, it seems the Brazilian plane has greater chances of winning the contract. Here's what the article says about KC-390:

The Brazilian KC-390 which started deliveries in 2019 is a newbie compared to the C-130 with less than a hundred delivered to date. That said it is in many ways a transport aircraft that incorporates the best of technologies available today and has been designed by Embraer to replace the C-130 as the outside option for air forces globally as the venerable old freighter is phased out. The KC-390 consequently is 15% faster, carries 18% greater cargo, and costs some 41% less than a C-130 in terms of the purchase cost.

Full article here:

https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/o...rcraft-project

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The RAF really will go ahead and put their C-130J fleet up for sale!

I didn't believe it but the number of tweets I'd been seeing once more lamenting the fact the UK was going to bin these workhorses for budgetary reasons made me recheck.

The coronation fly past will be the last time the Hercules flies with an RAF roundel. If they're being put up for sale, and I quote (emphasis mine):

Alex Chalk, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, stated :

“The Royal Air Force’s C-130J Hercules capability is planned to be withdrawn from service on 30 June 2023. Appropriate disposal activities have already begun in support of the potential sale of the airframes, flight simulators, support equipment, and the remaining specialised C130J spares inventory.”

..with all the ancillary equipment, spares, etc, wouldn't it behove the IAF do throw their hat in the mix? I can't help but feel this is an opportune moment if not to buy the entire airframe but to at the very least buy out the spares inventory and the support equipment, there's never a time when you can have enough of those.

I know there's this new tender for a medium lift platform but it just seems to me there's a windfall to be had if India moved quickly here.

To play devil's advocate here I'd say there's a concern that there's likely to be some mileage on these platforms given the UK's long involvement in the Middle East over the past 20 years. The newest of these RAF C-130s are from 1999. I just find it telling that so many UK armed forces members are lamenting the loss of this platform.

For some levity snippets from a former RAF C-130 pilot, his anecdotes and opinions on the Hercules:
https://hushkit.net/2023/03/27/why-i...-130-hercules/

Think this just about sums up how ubiquitous and useful the C-130 has been throughout it's career (emphasis mine):

“Wherever you find a war about to start there are always two aviation constants: the KC-135s will start appearing in strange places – and the world’s Hercules will start moving.”

Amusing anecdote about how noisy C-130s are:

Above all, despite outwardly appearance, inside the thing it’s as noisy as hell, all Mks, no exception. Our Ground Engineers had to pass a Hercules GE Sim ride as part of their selection. It involved getting in a hammock in a cupboard under the stairs and switching the hoover on alongside. If you could sleep for six hours, you were in.

On Aid work:

Perfect platform, no requirement for a prepared operating base or a need for a runway near the area in distress, just chuck the stuff out the back. Interesting piece of work done by the Belgiums on aid dropping. In Kenya the RAF gleefully dropped grain etc from 50’ watching it bounce and explode its way down the DZ. The Belgiums slowed right down and dropped it from 1000’. The bags soon lost their free air forward throw and hit the ground largely vertically and amazingly remained intact, presumably much to the relief of the people trying to pick them up. Aid work can be messy, any aircraft that you can hose down both inside and out at the end of the day is a winner.

On it's rivals:

Of its rivals which comes closest and which is the worst? C-17 can drop a load heavier than a C-130 max landing weight from a speed below the C130 stall speed. Truly excellent thing. The Transall was a horror show as was some of the stuff Antonov produced.

More about the AN-12, curious about the leaking hydraulic fluid (wonder if IAF personnel have similar anecdotes):

The An-12 literally fell to pieces in my hands. We had agreed a slightly illegal co-pilot swop the night before in Ancona during the Sarajevo airlift which I started to regret when I was told to always wear a hat to avoid getting hydraulic fluid in my hair. Next was setting the millibar setting on the peculiar altimeter with a screwdriver as the knob was by now somewhere in amongst the control runs under the seat. Still, the chaps seemed unconcerned, the food was great and apparently there was absolutely no requirement to flare the thing, it kind of just gave up flying and belly flopped down. That said, it was better than the Transall, felt like it was made out of concrete.

Finally, and tellingly, what this former C-130 pilot has to say about the RAF sunsetting them:

Your opinions on the RAF’s C-130 retirement and the A400M? The German AF is still buying C-130s and we are selling ours, read into that what you will. There are a lot of customers for ours as well. Ask yourself why there are so few in museums or guarding gates.

[dragracer567]

In what is possibly one of the most daring rescue missions conducted by the Indian Air Force in the 21st century, IAF pilots landed a C130J Hercules at an unprepared airstrip in Sudan using Night Vision Goggles (NVGs) & the electro-optical sensor onboard the C130J with no navigational aids or refueling.

Now, most of these C130J missions were in Port Sudan which has a proper runway et al., however, Port Sudan is approx. 900 km from Khartoum. The planes landed in Wadi Sayyidna - about 40 km from Khartowm to pick up 121 people including a pregnant woman since these people couldn't make it to Port Sudan.

The pilots kept the engine on the entire time (perhaps someone more knowledgeable can explain why) while 8 Garuda commandos of the IAF ensured the safety of the aircraft & the passengers.

The IAF carried out this mission despite the fact that a Turkish mission to the same airstrip earlier had taken fire - perhaps the reason why the mission was conducted at night.

It's missions like these that display the professionalism of our armed forces during peacetime, especially in hostile terrain quarter way across the globe from home base. These are real-life heroes who executed a mission with clinical precision - saving lives in the process.

Should drop a word on the aircraft as well, the C130J is clearly a tactical asset that we clearly need more of - the C295s for example cannot conduct such missions far away from home base (neither are they meant to). It has the range to operate so far away (though flights were out of Jeddah), can land in smaller runways unlike the C17s, has the tech like the electro-optical sensor to operate at night while is hardy enough to land in unprepared runways - a crucial combination of capabilities. The HUD can even display synthetic terrain overlay!

A similar landing was conducted in Afghanistan on an IAF C17 - explained in post #1594 of 'Combat aircraft of the Indian Air Force' thread (Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force)