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Old 4th June 2023, 11:33   #31
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Here is an explainer video on what happened exactly that led to this tragic incident.
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Old 4th June 2023, 11:35   #32
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

The core reason seems to be coramandel express entering the loop line at high speed. Why that happened will be the focus of the detailed investigation. The signal had to be for the mainline as there is no way the signal actually could have been for the loop line as the goods was already there.

From an armchair analysis, it seems that the point switch back to the main line after the goods entered did not happen at the mechanical level but the electronics indicated it had happened and the signal changed to indicate clearance for the main line. There is also talk that at this station the interlock is done manually.

Once this mistake happened, the train's fate was sealed. There was no way the loco pilot or any anticollision system as claimed by a section of people could have done anything. In fact even without the goods being there, a train entering a loop line at >100kmph would in all probability have derailed. The goods being there amplified the accident, then even more unfortunately the SMVT -Howrah train came on the opposite line at exactly the same time. If it came 30sec earlier, it would have passed without incident. If it had actually come 30secs later then the tragedy would have been worse.
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Old 4th June 2023, 12:55   #33
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

This is a very tragic thing to happen - such huge loss of lives and even bigger number of lives impacted in few seconds. My heart goes out to each and every human affected by this humongous disaster.

Turns out to be the third deadliest train accident ever in India in terms of causalities. This coming in at a time when Indian railways is trying to make new strides in terms of modern infrastructure, world class train and facilities - it's a sad setback to the railways.

Having said that, cannot take away the good work that has happened in recent years. But at the same time something terribly wrong has happened here and can happen in future, if not identified and resolved systematically. Hoping that happens in minimum time.

There is something else around loss of life in accidents, disasters in India that I find very disturbing and I'd want to bring that up here today. I am not sure if it's just me or some of you also feel the same.

The moment there is an accident involving human casualties, why is it that within minutes our administration, state and central govts go about announcing compensation amounts?

My problem with that:

1. Sounds too insensitive coming within minutes of life loss, as if putting a price tag to each life. Imagine this happening to you - would it not really hurt more?

2. Most of the civilized world would not welcome this and will be considered grossly insensitive in most countries. I don't recall similar announcements in other countries. Is this engrained deeply in our socio political set up?

3. Why do they have to announce and why it has to be discretionary? Why different amounts for different accidents? Why not just have a standard set up that works in the background without needing any mention anywhere? Even if it has to be announced, it can come a week later or so after the immediate mourning. But looks like a political race to announce sooner and bigger. Sad.

4. I never see anyone having a problem with this. Really?

In this global era, I think it's time to change the old mindset of putting a price tag to lives (read 'lives of poor') in India.

We need to become a more humane society and be sensitive to these matters. I am sure this will be a matter of laughing at us elsewhere in the world. We need to change and this has to be lead by the leaders at the top.

Last edited by Rodie09 : 4th June 2023 at 12:57.
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Old 4th June 2023, 13:14   #34
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodie09 View Post
T
My problem with that:

1. Sounds too insensitive coming within minutes of life loss, as if putting a price tag to each life. Imagine this happening to you - would it not really hurt more?
I understand what you are saying, and though I cannot answer all your questions, I can offer a perspective. For a lot of underprivileged people, a tragedy such as death also has a lot of financial consequences attached. Costs of funeral (which in India also involves offering meals to X amount of priests and Y amount of relatives), costs of arranging travel till accident site and bringing the corpse back, loss of daily wages during this period, etc. all seem insignificant to a lot of us, but for a majority of people who lack the means, it is a cause of concern. Immediate discretionary release of funds is helpful that way.

Then of course there is the shameless political angle to it, which needs no more comments from my side.

EDIT: As for # 3, seems like the amount of relief payments announced by the Central Government is the same in the current accident as for previous accidents. See: https://pmnrf.gov.in/en/about/ex-gratia. 2L for death cases and 50L for injuries seems to be the norm for all accidents.

Last edited by N.A.GTC : 4th June 2023 at 13:25.
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Old 4th June 2023, 13:26   #35
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by N.A.GTC View Post
I understand what you are saying, and though I cannot answer all your questions, I can offer a perspective. For a lot of underprivileged people, a tragedy such as death also has a lot of financial consequences attached. Costs of funeral (which in India also involves offering meals to X amount of priests and Y amount of relatives), costs of arranging travel till accident site and bringing the corpse back, loss of daily wages during this period, etc. all seem insignificant to a lot of us, but for a majority of people who lack the means, it is a cause of concern. Immediate discretionary release of funds is helpful that way.

Then of course there is the shameless political angle to it, which needs no more comments from my side.
That's exactly where we need to work and I know it's going to be a long journey. It's time we build a system that works as an assurance to the underprivileged and that it ensures there is no anxiety or uncertainty on such things. It's a whole mindset change and is a gradual process.

I do understand your point as well and I have been aware of that even when I wrote my post.

India has already made many such changes in the last decade or two - many services where you don't have to worry anymore and the money just shows up in the bank account. Perhaps something similar.
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Old 4th June 2023, 14:32   #36
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Preliminary Train Accident Report


"According to the preliminary findings, there has been some issue with the signalling. We are still waiting for the detailed report from the Commissioner of Railway Safety. Only Coromandal Express met with an accident. The train was at a speed of around 128 km/h."


"The goods train did not get derailed. Since the goods train was carrying iron ores, the maximum damage of the impact was on Coromandel Express. This is the reason for a huge number of deaths and injuries," said Jaya Varma Sinha.


"The derailed bogies of Coromandel Express came on the downline and hit the last two bogies of Yashwantpur Express which was crossing at the speed of 126 km/h from downline," she said.
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Old 4th June 2023, 17:02   #37
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

This has been a sad weekend. May God give all the people involved in this accident and their close ones enough strength to face such a difficult time.

My heart sank watching one particular video. No man should go through the ordeal of searching for his son/daughter in a heap of corpses.

Some of the animations shown are incorrect, the second train’s last few coaches were derailed by impact of some coaches of the crashing Coromandel Express as it happened to pass by. A few minutes (or maybe seconds) earlier and the second train’s crash would not have happened :(

I read in the newspapers that Coromandel Express’ loco pilot is injured, hopefully he will be able to provide valuable information in case there was a fundamental flaw in the signalling and track-changing process.
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Old 4th June 2023, 18:10   #38
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

This is a very sad tragedy. It seems if the Yeshwanthpur express was running behind by a few seconds the tragedy would have been far worse. Most of that train crossed and only the last 2 bogies or so apparently faced the impact of the Coromandel’s derailment.

Per this news article a similar tragedy was averted back in February in the Mysore division, thanks to the alert loco pilot. It seems the then principal chief operating manager of South Central railways flagged the grave dangers of some manual override option in the electronic interlocking system, which he suspects could be the root cause of the recent tragedy. Article here - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../100735593.cms
Quote:
In his report after the February 8 incident, then PCOM Hari Shankar Verma wrote: "The Hosadurga station incident indicates that there are serious flaws in the system and contravenes the essence and basic principles of interlocking. The electronic signal maintainer attempted to rectify the signal error after bypassing rules and procedures." Verma joined the Lucknow-based Indian Railways Institute of Transport Management as DG on May 22. Verma said the electronic signal maintainer allegedly bypassed the electronic interlocking system, which could have led to the collision of Sampark Kranti Express (12649) with a goods train (similar to the Odisha accident) on February 8 at Hosadurga Road station.

Last edited by SR-71 : 4th June 2023 at 18:17.
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Old 4th June 2023, 18:48   #39
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodie09 View Post
That's exactly where we need to work and I know it's going to be a long journey. It's time we build a system that works as an assurance to the underprivileged and that it ensures there is no anxiety or uncertainty on such things. It's a whole mindset change and is a gradual process.

I do understand your point as well and I have been aware of that even when I wrote my post.

India has already made many such changes in the last decade or two - many services where you don't have to worry anymore and the money just shows up in the bank account. Perhaps something similar.
I think where you are going with this is that each railways ticket that you purchase should have accident insurance as a compulsory add-on. For cheaper tickets, government should fund the insurance, others pay themselves. I do hope all railway staff already are covered.

And the insurer gets a seat on railways safety governance.

As you rightly say, there should be nothing 'discretionary' about it, it smells of 'bakshish'. Nobody is doing anyone any favours here.

On the contrary, as can be expected of our system, no one, not one, has said something about accepting responsibility, and god forbid, put up an apology and follow the trace to the conclusion.

Some minions will embrace the noose in due course, if at all.
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Old 4th June 2023, 19:11   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.A.GTC View Post
I understand what you are saying, and though I cannot answer all your questions, I can offer a perspective. For a lot of underprivileged people, a tragedy such as death also has a lot of financial consequences attached. Costs of funeral (which in India also involves offering meals to X amount of priests and Y amount of relatives), costs of arranging travel till accident site and bringing the corpse back, loss of daily wages during this period, etc. all seem insignificant to a lot of us, but for a majority of people who lack the means, it is a cause of concern. Immediate discretionary release of funds is helpful that way.

Then of course there is the shameless political angle to it, which needs no more comments from my side.

EDIT: As for # 3, seems like the amount of relief payments announced by the Central Government is the same in the current accident as for previous accidents. See: https://pmnrf.gov.in/en/about/ex-gratia. 2L for death cases and 50L for injuries seems to be the norm for all accidents.

Just to add to my points around compensation and your points around the immediate need of funds, we all know how much time it would take for the funds to actually reach the right beneficiary. It is understandably a complicated process to identify the legitimate beneficiary and then make the transfer to their bank account.

The announced compensation in no way is coming this soon to the needy.

The announcements happen under pressure because of this rotten practice that's been there since history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dust-n-bones View Post
I think where you are going with this is that each railways ticket that you purchase should have accident insurance as a compulsory add-on. For cheaper tickets, government should fund the insurance, others pay themselves. I do hope all railway staff already are covered.

And the insurer gets a seat on railways safety governance.

As you rightly say, there should be nothing 'discretionary' about it, it smells of 'bakshish'. Nobody is doing anyone any favours here.

On the contrary, as can be expected of our system, no one, not one, has said something about accepting responsibility, and god forbid, put up an apology and follow the trace to the conclusion.

Some minions will embrace the noose in due course, if at all.
Yes, that's exactly how it should work seamlessly and without discretion, without any attempt to score brownie points. Apologies for back to back posts.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 4th June 2023 at 21:25. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 4th June 2023, 22:46   #41
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Scary to say the least. I recall a forum member Vigsom keeps travelling by train. Wondering how he should be feeling after this incident despite not being there. Just a month ago my family also travelled on the same route. I shudder to think of sending them again.

I hope the Railways can learn and implement failsafe measures to avoid basic stuff like signalling errors, broken track, etc. Having said that, we read about train accidents even from developed countries. Guess the risk is part of the mode of travel.
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Old 5th June 2023, 01:17   #42
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

This is why I'm never impressed with the shiny new luxury trains that people hail as progress.

The railways is a people mover. its filled with people who use it as the cheapest mode of transport over long distances as they have no alternatives. our network is still ancient in terms of reliability and safety and no efforts have been taken to upgrade it as these aren't the people that will complain on social media and are hence taken for granted.

A lot of people talking about how an anti- collision system would not have prevented this accident. This does not excuse the fact that none was present on the route in the first place and still isn't on a high percentage of the total rail network in India. The CAG report states that the Rashtriya Rail Sanraksha Kosh (RRSK) has a lot of discrepancies because the amount advertised in the budget and actual implementation is leagues apart.

Accountability is the need of the hour and not excuses. We need to get our priorities right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dust-n-bones View Post
I think where you are going with this is that each railways ticket that you purchase should have accident insurance as a compulsory add-on. For cheaper tickets, government should fund the insurance, others pay themselves. I do hope all railway staff already are covered.
I don't think increasing the burden on the working class is the solution here. Also claiming insurance is not the easiest especially with the labor class. Most of their families wont even be aware of the insurance and have limited ability to file claims.
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Old 5th June 2023, 07:33   #43
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by dust-n-bones View Post
I think where you are going with this is that each railways ticket that you purchase should have accident insurance as a compulsory add-on. For cheaper tickets, government should fund the insurance, others pay themselves. I do hope all railway staff already are covered.
As you rightly say, there should be nothing 'discretionary' about it, it smells of 'bakshish'. Nobody is doing anyone any favours here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodie09 View Post
Yes, that's exactly how it should work seamlessly and without discretion, without any attempt to score brownie points. Apologies for back to back posts.
From the posts above I assume you are not aware. Insurance is a part of every e ticket booked. When you book an e-ticket online, there is an option to opt for insurance cover for the journey.

How much does it cost?? May not be believable 35 Paisa per person. This is for an overnight journey in regular sleeper class, it may change with distance, but I don't think it does. You have the option to opt out, but I see no reason to do so.

The coverage: 10 Lakh for accidental death and disability and lower ammounts depending on severity.

You get an insurance certificate to your email immediately when you book it. So no need to depend on anyone for claims.

Of course, I don't think it covers unreserved tickets and not sure about tickets booked at a counter.

Last edited by Rajeevraj : 5th June 2023 at 07:36.
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Old 5th June 2023, 07:35   #44
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluengel180 View Post
This is why I'm never impressed with the shiny new luxury trains that people hail as progress.

The railways is a people mover. its filled with people who use it as the cheapest mode of transport over long distances as they have no alternatives. our network is still ancient in terms of reliability and safety and no efforts have been taken to upgrade it as these aren't the people that will complain on social media and are hence taken for granted.
True. However, I would add that the 'shiny' new things do bring in the necessary upgrades out of necessity. Additionally, the spotlight and new riders who hopefully are more demanding customers. So it may be for the better for all we know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluengel180 View Post
Also claiming insurance is not the easiest especially with the labor class. Most of their families wont even be aware of the insurance and have limited ability to file claims.
Agree. For as large a customer as railways could be, insurance could instead be legally mandated to do the running around instead of the claimants, with requirements to publish occupant lists and time-bound disbursements.

Ultimately, an accountable corporation is more responsive than a government with no legal obligation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
From the posts above I assume you are not aware. Insurance is a part of every e ticket booked. When you book an e-ticket online, there is an option to opt for insurance cover for the journey.

How much does it cost?? May not be believable 35 Paisa per person. This is for an overnight journey in regular sleeper class, it may change with distance, but I don't think it does. You have the option to opt out, but I see no reason to do so.

The coverage: 10 Lakh for accidental death and disability and lower ammounts depending on severity.

You get an insurance certificate to your email immediately when you book it. So no need to depend on anyone for claims.

Of course, I don't think it covers unreserved tickets and not sure about tickets booked at a counter.
Thanks for this. Here are the details you referred to I think: https://pib.gov.in/Pressreleaseshare.aspx?PRID=1541064
If this can be expanded to all passengers and made more claimant friendly, there is no need for government to give 'discretionary relief'.

Last edited by dust-n-bones : 5th June 2023 at 07:56. Reason: added quote from rajeevraj
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Old 5th June 2023, 09:27   #45
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Re: 3 Trains collide in Odisha | Over 200 dead, 900 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post

From an armchair analysis, it seems that the point switch back to the main line after the goods entered did not happen at the mechanical level but the electronics indicated it had happened and the signal changed to indicate clearance for the main line. There is also talk that at this station the interlock is done manually.
By all commonsense about even automated signalling system, a signal to enter loop line with a reduced speed should be reflecting in the previous two signal points. Will it be a run-through green on the outer signal points if a train has to enter loop line only? Or, can a loop signal be given when a train is already standing on that particular loop? Shouldn't these be all interconnected? That is, I think, could be the basic of any automatic colour light signal system. So, what it shows is that the very basic has gone wrong here. And, if what you said is correct, how on earth such a mainline station is still left to do signalling manually?!! How much does it cost the Indian Railways to transform this in the remaining block stations actually? Especially when it can bring about superclass high speed trains...?

Last edited by Vipin Kumar : 5th June 2023 at 09:29.
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