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30th October 2009, 17:45 | #76 |
BHPian |
Thanks for the support Nuts!! The thread made me delve a little deeper into the working of the DRDO and I am coming up with some pretty interesting facts about the way DRDO goes about it's business. Will post the same when I have all the facts. |
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30th October 2009, 19:11 | #77 |
BHPian | Welcome neel. For some time I have been involved in their works and have realised that there are plenty of bad eggs whose sole aim seems to construct huge buildings on taxpayers' expense, call them labs or whatever and produce zilch from there. Our deshpremi netas fall for their "we are short of funds, but we are very knowledgeable and capable" line. It will be interesting if you can dig out how mahy attempts to accountability have been scuttled and under what pretext. |
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30th October 2009, 20:46 | #78 | |
Senior - BHPian | Drdo Quote:
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30th October 2009, 21:02 | #79 | |
Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore
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Butttttttttt dear sir when did i ever challenge your military knowledge? all i was disputing was the cryogenic engine which according to you is a big failure? As far as facts go, i think you have spent enough time researching last 2 days and due credits to you, again a buttttt, the literature never becomes the user manual. Atleast not just yet! Let me just point you to the fact, when it comes to thrust for cc Cryo's rules, which is required for heavy payloads for high altitude launches and hence respected Dr Kalam in his interview mentioned it as upper stage. As simple as i can put for others. For military application including spy satellites, solid state motor's are good enough. But i dont think our military establishment has its own satellite launch program, does it? Last edited by Jaggu : 30th October 2009 at 21:21. Reason: Ok let me not get too toucheeeeeeeee | |
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31st October 2009, 02:53 | #80 | |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Melbourne
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I havn`t researched anything online in last 2 days. I studied at RMIT Melbourne and my degree was Bach. of Applied Science with PHYSICS/MATHEMATICS and Information Technology. My major project was in respect similar to control system for Liquid Fuel based rockets. I designed all the hardware while rest of my group took care of the software side. So i have already done my part of the research. Sadly we never got the chance to actually use the system except few simulations. Any my POINT is (i didn`t wanted to put it like this to stop the can of worms from opening), we are researching and developing Cryo systems before we actually have a military use for it. What we do need is lower orbit surveillance satellites. If the argument is that we can get money coming in from future launches for commercial purposes. Well then why the hell are we not spending money on developing sattelites and renting them out???? AS a fact broadcasting industry is in dire need of new sattelites with higher throughput since almost all are equiped with older encryption technologies and are can only broadcast SD resolution channels and not many sattelites accept over the air firmware and even then more than 70% can just become floating bricks if firmware update goes wrong. Build a cheap sattelite which can deliver 1080p broadcasts with NDS security and ISRO will make the money spent before the rental contract begins. That is my point, but now you can see there are other variables to consider and the whole topic is shifting off military aspect to commercial aspect. and again for the topic Liquid fuel systems are not a failure but are future but we are developing them for wrong reasons, if someone from ISRO comes and says we are developing Cyro for sending a human being to moon, then its all fine but they are not saying so. Sorry if i was rude anywhere and just call me buddy, sir makes me feel 60 | |
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31st October 2009, 07:43 | #81 | |
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
the viper looks interesting. have they caught the army interest? or is it just a concept car.what engine and chassis is it running on? | |
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31st October 2009, 12:04 | #82 | |||||
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31st October 2009, 13:25 | #83 | |||
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NDS is a quite a different system in its own. It needs its own processing unit both at the source and at the receiver end and upgrades can be done on the fly. Biggest benefit being, if NDs gets cracked in the future with easy (very improbable). System can be replaced overnight with another encryption technology. Apparently when NDS was released, secondary encryption was put in place for standby. As far as i know, there is not even a single sattelite that Support NDS encryption. Quote:
Sorry if i was rude anywhere. Cheers | |||
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31st October 2009, 14:33 | #84 | |||
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cheers Jaggu | |||
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31st October 2009, 22:20 | #85 | |
BHPian | The Hindu : Andhra Pradesh News : MPVs handed over to Army Quote:
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1st November 2009, 20:24 | #86 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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And for what purpose should i analyze the MTBF when there is hardly anything in Defense Forces inventory to compare those to. And if not the bribes, then what is making the Army delay the comparative trial of Indian Arjuna and Russian Bhishama tanks ? Due to Army's reluctance and DRDO's eagreness to comparative trials I have to come to conclusion that there is corruption involved which is making Army to declare a tank inferior to their favorite. Because you have bought upon the opinion of some MP's, kindly read the following : Quote:
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BTW how much more relevant is an article from 1989 and another by a parliamentarian whose only claim to fame is that he is son of some big politician and the opinion of Government's accountant CAG in comparison to expert opinion of the soldiers who will use tank on daily basis, Parliamentary standing committee and the maker of the world's best tank. Quote:
That is one example, but if you cannot see on your own then it is futile to elaborate any further. Quote:
And I am sorry as long as Defense Forces will rely solely on equipment bought from outside and will run away from comparative trials, their opinion on DRDO's competency is as good as a corrupt official caught red handed taking bribes. BTW do you have any idea how little that is spent on Indian Scientific establishments compared to NASA and DARPA, if you would have know you wouldn't have made any comparison. I find it quite prejudiced of Defense Forces to declare that DRDO is incompetent and that because they are not run properly when the people who have run DRDO have also run ISRO, especially when they cannot see corruption. Quote:
Now as you have quoted CAG and are mentioning MBTF, kindly go through the following CAG report that would be an eye opener to those who have championed the cause of reliance on foreign equipment have lauded their superior quality and MBTF. Quote:
Seems that Defense forces are doing a very good</sarcasm> job of securing the nation by relying foreign equipment which are mostly out of business and are needing parts which have to be bought from outside. Quote:
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And going by how well the reliance on foreign equipment have turned out (48 per cent availability anyone ?) Defense forces will find not find many supporters which they will suggest that equipment which have found no buyer other than India is better than the one(which army is running away from testing against their favorite) which have been lauded by not only the Indian Soldiers who would use those tank in battle field and also the maker of the world best tank. Quote:
There are two theories for the cause on this incidents :- Quote:
It may seem to you that it is plausible for Grobov to play with a switch that could take life of all the personnel on Nerpa, but I find it quite hard to digest. And in this case as the personnel are not alive just like Wg Cdr Khanna, we will never know what really happened in two incidents. But I find it quite surprising that in one case you have put blame on the equipment error and on other on the Human error. And this is what I mean by double standard. Quote:
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Before you go ahead and blame them, tell me why can't Defense forces find someone else to fix their EOL equipment ? It is quite prejudiced of you to blame DRDO for supporting old EOL inventory which is in poor shape because the OEM have stopped supporting it. And rather than realizing that this is what happens when one relies on equipment bought from outside you are blaming DRDO. If Defense forces are looking for precision and quality then they should have relied on OEM, and when they are not doing then Defense forces are to blame for buying such trash and they better make do with whatever they have got and that will certainly not have quality of OEM as no one can be as familiar to equipment as OEM else they can go find some one else to blame. Quit blaming others for own mistake Both the Saras and the ASP we designed and manufactured by the same group of scientists who were killed in the crashes. Besides them, test pilots and test engineers of the IAF also had to lay down their lives! Quote:
I presume that you also have similar opinion on Pierre-Marie Curie and Homi J. Bhabha ? BTW, I have found this statement of yours very objectionable. Quote:
BTW, I do like Mirages still I thin that anything Indigenous is better than anything bought from outside. Quote:
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So as long as Indigenous are not available there is nothing wrong to buy from outside but once we have Indian alternative then there can be no excuse(other than bribes) for continuing the reliance on foreign equipment. Quote:
If as you suggest that their best tank are inferior then why do you want to buy "best"(also very debatable ?). Do you believe that we have money growing on trees ? And there is a reason China and almost all big power buy indigenous equipment, because those cost almost nothing(money remain in economy, generate employment) and also those are easier to support and can be bought in big numbers. An due to continuous development this help develop good capability to churn out world class equipment . And this is what I want Defense forces to do and end their addiction of bribes. Quote:
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I am sorry but it is your logic which seriously flawed !!!!1!!111!1‽, Nuclear bombs prevent Nuclear powers to enter into even small conflict no matter hos sour relations may be because even small conflicts can end up in Nuclear Conflict. I don't care whether you think this is flawed or not. I have got example of USA and Russia. Quote:
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I seriously have no sympathy for those who suggest that it is fine to die in MiG-21s and Nerpa, but it is not fine to buy Indian products because there is possibility that it would be involved in some sort of fatal failure. I call this double standard, and find corruption to be cause of this. Quote:
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And if these issues are minor ones, then why are Defense Forces are hellbent on buying Bhishma and making only token purchase of Arjuna ? Quote:
This is what I find very shocking, whether it is MKI or Brahmos whatever marketed by Russians (though manufactured by Indians) is acceptable to defense forces. Quote:
p.s. Due to our inability to change each others mind or come to a conclusion, I think it is becoming a chore to carry on with this discussion. I hope we can agree to disagree. Last edited by anmol2k4 : 1st November 2009 at 20:36. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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2nd November 2009, 02:52 | #87 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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However, during the course of my research, I came upon some amazing facts about the Arjun MBT. As the title of this thread implies, we are talking about "indigenous" equipment here. But I was pretty surprised with the indigenous content of the Arjun! 1. Engine: 1400 HP German MTU diesel 2. FCS: Based on the Marconi SFCS600- British, linked to a Barr & Stroud Tank Laser Sight-British and IR8 Thermal Imager in the initial versions. In the current version, the FCS has been developed by BEL in conjunction with Elbit of Israel So, lo-and -behold, the "indigenous" MBT runs on an imported powerplant and the FCS, the heart of the MBT is also from a foreign vendor!! All in all imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 to 60% in PPS. So much for "indigenisation"! The point here is this : Even now, when we have our Swadeshi Arjun, if any if the vendors decide that they are not happy, the MBT goes bust. And we payed all the money that has gone into the project for what? Just for the DRDO to buy the goodies and integrate then to give us the Arjun. Even the integration was shoddy which was the reason why the initial hit rates were 20-30% which has now increased to 90%. As per Mallika Joseph the Assistant Director of Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies: "While the DRDO does deserve credit for the project, the army too could be given some credit, for it can be argued that if not for the uncompromising and scathing criticism from the Army, the Ajun would have ended up as an obsolete T-80 tank and not a state-ofthe-art next generation tank." So, evidently, the Army had a role to play in the standards that Arjun possesses today!! Quote:
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And secondly, as I have stated before, the Armed forces have never shunned the DRDO.Whenever an equipment has been provided by the DRDO that has met the requirements of the Armed Forces, they have been readily embraced. It is only when something does not meet it's requirements that the Armed Forces have said no. Quote:
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Take a closer look at the sub fleet of the Navy and its vintage. The reasons for frequent breakdowns will be evident. Quote:
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And again, the Chinese, Americans, French and the Russians themselves do not buy anything that is indigenous. They buy only those equipment that fit their bill. Quote:
Yup! And now you are the Expert! Conspiracy theories are all nice, but kindly remember that theories are all they are. Quote:
In the case of Wg Cdr Khanna, the facts have been put on the table and it is the fuse that was to blame. Quote:
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And what "trash" are you talking about? Kindly elaborate. Quote:
So please object to it, but using facts for your defence and not merely rhetoric! Quote:
The reasons for the poor serviceability of the subs has already been explained. And as far as the Mirage upgrade goes, it is stuck up for a clause in the MOD which says that any upgrade that costs more than 50% of the cost of the equipment will not be authorised. Hence the problem is political and the forces have little to do with it! And to suggest that DRDO will be called in to upgrade the Mirage?!! Let them build a proper fighter first!! Quote:
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It is only when people have died that reservations have come up! Quote:
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The point is, it is very hard to convince someone whose basis of argument is rhetoric. See the facts, maybe things will change. Last edited by neel385 : 2nd November 2009 at 03:01. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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2nd November 2009, 09:57 | #88 |
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Cochin
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| Wow, this is beginning to sound like indo-pak war. However a lot more interesting! I can't remember how many times I have changed sides so far. . Anmol has raised a lot of convincing arguments supporting DRDO and efforts at indigenisation, however right now I would be more comfortable to keep my egg basket in Neel's capable hands. With regards to MBT Arjun, it doesn't matter how much (or less) indigenous it may be (60% or so as per above post), it is still better than 100% of T 90 (as they are equally capable and Arjun is cheaper), isn't it. But since the army is looking for next gen MBT by 2020, how many are they plannning to buy now? (Is it going to be available? by whom? , Is DRDO aware about this requirement?). Somewhere in the earlier posts I read that the sale of Arjun to army would be a morale booster to the scientists/ designers/ engineers at DRDO and they would work harder to improve their products. Well why don't we just tell them that their product is being bought by army in hundreds! .Hopefully they will get back to work with renewed vigour and create a world class product. |
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2nd November 2009, 10:48 | #89 | |
BHPian | Quote:
The Army is in the process of finalising its QRs for its next gen MBT. There is some talk of a joint design and production between the Russians and Indians.As of now, the Army has ordered 124 Arjun MBTs. Anmol is sure to smell a "bribe" here!! Last edited by neel385 : 2nd November 2009 at 11:02. | |
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2nd November 2009, 10:58 | #90 |
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mumbai
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| This is my first post, and what a great way to start by being able to know more on defense vehicles.I love this forum. From Defense vehicles to Tanks, this thread has gone in the right direction.Arjun being on my watch list always.proud of Arjun. |
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