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Old 25th March 2018, 15:09   #31
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post

I would only like for Fiat to explain themselves for doing this to unsuspecting Indian customers. What were they thinking?
How does it make any sense to give a bigger IC to colder climates and a small IC to the tropics?
Being sold in the tropics might be the very reason Fiat opted to give a smaller intercooler to the car because in the tropical climates the higher moisture content in the air causes enough condensation to build up in larger intercoolers that it can cause other problems.

In colder climates like Russia the average humidity is very low, hence, the bigger intercoolers do not face problems with condensation buildup.

Since, a car being sold in a particular region must be able to perform in all the climatic conditions( from hot and humid coastal regions to cold and dry mountains) Fiat must have fitted the smaller intercooler.

Ford has also done something similar with their Focus RS, instead of fitting a smaller intercooler for the more humid markets Ford simply put a blanking plate over a part of the intercooler to reduce its efficiency just enough to avoid any problems with condensation buildup.
Here's the link to the article covering this: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how...-was-too-cool/
Here's a link to a video explaining the same :
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Old 25th March 2018, 23:32   #32
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by Abhishek3001 View Post
Being sold in the tropics might be the very reason Fiat opted to give a smaller intercooler to the car because in the tropical climates the higher moisture content in the air causes enough condensation to build up in larger intercoolers that it can cause other problems.

In colder climates like Russia the average humidity is very low, hence, the bigger intercoolers do not face problems with condensation buildup.
This is great info and i saw multiple video specifically related to condensation in Ford's Ecoboost Series in cold climates.

This probably could be one of the reasons that Ford and Maruti have both gone for a vertical mount intercools so that even if water gets formed, it trickles down towards the base rather than travel upwards into the Throttle body.

The biggest question is that many cars like the Ford Diesels, Maruti MJDs, have been running for lakhs of KMs with biggers ICs compared to the wafer we get in a Performance variant.

Knowing Maruti who is known for reliability and longevity, at least to the masses, they would have done thorough analysis on their Boosterjet which is in the Baleno RS. And having seen that IC in action, i really cant give Fiat any benefit of doubt here.

The benefits witnessed first hand with the bigger IC, far weighs out challenges if at all, and they should have been handled technically via thorough research.

Moreover, the engine's life also gets impacted by the super hot air the IC keeps feeding it.

So i as an individual will still like Fiat to enlighten me on this one. This is just my personal opinion, based on the research i have done.


Indian Ford Ecoboost IC :
http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/Ford...cosport-08.jpg

Baleno RS IC :
http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/2017...leno-rs-10.jpg

Fiat Linea TJet IC :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...-ic-weight.jpg

Last edited by adneo : 25th March 2018 at 23:49.
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Old 26th March 2018, 12:49   #33
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Crap, the T-Jet IC looks like a toy!
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Old 8th April 2018, 11:57   #34
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
I was able to install Cruise Control for less than ₹ 5000 and a bigger IC for approximately ₹ 10000.
Rajan

Thank you for both the posts & DIYs

I have the following queries
1. Would changing the IC make as much or any difference in the MJD (PS - This has just been remapped by Rajiv)

2. I have a 2009 MJD - Emotion - I have read your disclaimer about the cruise control DIY - how does one ascertain if it can work.
Also there is a 2014 TJet - Active - which is interested in the Cruise Control


Would be nice to hear when you have the time
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:31   #35
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Firstly, kudos to keroo1099 and adneo for researching into this and taking efforts to log data, and PatchyBoy for going ahead and doing a DIY upgrade. No easy feat, this.

Thanks to you guys, my curiosity rose on this topic, but never got a chance to pursue or put effort until one of my good friends Vijay expressed interest to log data from my T Jet, so that we could understand first hand what the pain point is. Vijay had already been logging some of his drives in his Linea MJD and from what we saw in the graphs, the IC was doing it’s job as expected.

Disclaimer: Most of the cars with the modded ICs are remapped with wolf. My T Jet and Vijay’s Linea Multijet are bone stock. Everything is factory spec. We have done a fair share of data logging, covering all possible traffic conditions. Only use cases pending are to drive in extreme heat conditions, i.e say a hot afternoon in the month of May. Still, the delta change in temperature of IAT, which the stock intercooler provides is pretty good.

Also, I seem to agree to the post by Abhishek3001 above, as to why manufacturers provide a smaller IC for regions with tropical climatic conditions. Fiat for one, has been making cars since ages, and am sure they had a good reason to change the intercooler, when compared to European markets, given the initial batch of T Jets had the engine totally imported, and I still think the blocks are imported for different iterations of the same TCed engine.

So what we could observe from the runs we did, for over 300 kms atleast, on different occasions is, the stock IC drops the IAT as speeds are picked up by the car.

Posting the graphs below, they have all vital information required to understand them. The graph posted earlier by keroo1099 has some vital parameters missing like vehicle speed, which is critical because it is directly proportional to the airflow the intercooler sees.

Also, we have requested couple of Bangalore folks with both modded ICs and stock ICs to do a run parallel so that we could rule out any questions on driving style, speed, traffic conditions, ambient temperature, driving time, sample size, etc. Let’s see how that pans out, should be interesting.

P.S: The X axis, represents the number of lines in the csv log, bigger the number, longer the drive.

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-293ce2c78f0340dcb56e3a9404fd9de3.jpeg

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-3651149ee40a49faaaa77c33ee8e54dd.jpeg

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-80f9e216c686414a9278e138d8fba141.jpeg

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-5fdc5adacdf7467a8228fb22d2325c09.jpeg

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-145e894a400f416a9432d59ddb0ea61d.jpeg

DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet-3e7efed3cc014eb185de8fa81252e3d9.jpeg

Last edited by DRIV3R : 10th April 2018 at 11:48. Reason: Grammar
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Old 10th April 2018, 23:03   #36
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Update: Looks like the comparative drive planned will not happen as for some strange reason @keroo1099 is unwilling to join for the data logging drive to have an objective unbiased comparison. Some personal spats happened on some other social platform, where we had couple other sensible BHPians as well. Guess that the opinion that the stock IC as such is doing a good enough job is not going down well with certain folks who have performed the upgrade and see similar IAT temperatures.

I shall continue logging data from my Punto 90, Linea T Jet and also from a friends Rapid TDi, Aspire to analyse how efficient the intercoolers are behaving based on speed, ambient temperature and the likes and share them here.

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2018 at 17:55. Reason: Let's not make baseless accusations, especially against BHPians
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Old 11th April 2018, 00:32   #37
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

I am all game for a side by side drive of my car with the upgraded IC and a bone stock T-Jet. The efficiency of the IC needs to be checked at normal driving conditions, not at high speeds. I am aware that the stock IC does its job well in high speeds. But sadly, most of my drives are in city conditions and not conducive to high speeds. I have driven the T-Jet for 90K Kms on the stock IC and do understand how it behaves.

Please get someone in Kolkata with a stock T-Jet to come with me for a side by side drive. IMHO, you are the one that doesn't want to trust the benefits that I am claiming. So, it is only fair that you prove me wrong, rather than me proving you wrong.

I am only sharing the changes in the car as I am seeing it on a daily basis, post the upgrade. I am hardly holding a gun to your head asking you to upgrade the IC.

Cheers

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2018 at 17:56. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 11th April 2018, 00:46   #38
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
I shall continue logging data from my Punto 90, Linea T Jet and also from a friends Rapid TDi, Aspire to analyse how efficient the intercoolers are behaving based on speed, ambient temperature and the likes and share them here.
There are many dyno centres in Coimbatore. It would be great to compare there. Just check the power drop after couple of runs in cars with stock and upgraded intercooler.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 11th April 2018 at 00:47.
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Old 11th April 2018, 07:49   #39
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Quote:
I have driven the T-Jet for 90K Kms on the stock IC and do understand how it behaves.
Stock IC yes, but out of those 90k kms, 85-90% or even more of those kms are after remapping the car, right? Also, we started data logging only very recently.

Also some tall claims like FE increases by X, low end throttle response increases by Y, power increases by Z, “I don’t have to downshift anymore, I can drive at one gear higher”, “Stock intercooler is rubbish”, Stock T Jet doesn’t do high speed on hot afternoons, are all a bit far fetched and blown out of proportion. (Though some of these were not shared on this thread but the WA group)

If folks claim overall drivability has become better, that seems plausible.

Also, your thoughts on the video that @Abhishek3001 posted please.

Cheers!

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2018 at 17:57. Reason: No mention of illegally high speeds please and no abusive language, not even indirectly (*******)
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:34   #40
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

PatchyBoy has shared something which may or may not match the expectation you might have (or have assumed) for the intercooler. He's gone ahead and put in his time and effort to share something to all of us for an interactive discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
That is a really serious accusation you are making there.
I am only sharing the changes in the car as I am seeing it on a daily basis, post the upgrade. I am hardly holding a gun to your head asking you to upgrade the IC.
Please don't mind him, the only way to check would be to install an IC on your own car and see it first hand for yourself. Unfortunately, there will be many who will question, but frankly, we can never satisfy them. Personally, even I'm not sure of the IC because A. Have not driven any car with aftermarket IC, B. Since the IC improves mostly the in-city, or low speed performance ( decreasing or maintaining the IATs at low speeds). I don't drive my car as much in traffic as I should to feel the heat soak. But, when my car was Dyno-ed at KS Motorsports, there was a noticeable drop in power after repeated hot runs, which makes me believe that your observations are spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Also some tall claims like FE increases by X, low end throttle response increases by Y, power increases by Z
Not all changes can be measured quantitatively. I think we must respect observations of those who have gone ahead with the mod. There is no need for being so negative. As enthusiasts, we should look at all this with an open mind. Further there are lots of environmental factors as well. eg. someone in the Himalayas will probably have different observations than someone in Rajasthan (temp difference, oxygen levels) while those in coastal and inland areas will share even more different observations.

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2018 at 17:58. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:57   #41
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwasp View Post
Not all changes can be measured quantitatively. I think we must respect observations of those who have gone ahead with the mod. ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Also plotted IAT graphs after logging the drives using an ELM327 dongle and TorquePro App

Stock IC Chart

New IC Chart
Following which...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
  • The motorised throttle,
  • The intake air pressure/temperature sensor,
  • The injector rail and injectors
The graph is plotted, using the Intake Air Temperature sensor.

This particular sensor is located before the turbocharger, after/before the air filter box.
An intercooler is fitted to cool the compressed air from the turbo, which gets hot as a result of compression. The role of the intercooler begins only after the turbo plumbing.

So, not sure how the readings from this sensor is changed after fitting an intercooler?!

Last edited by GTO : 11th April 2018 at 17:59. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:09   #42
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
The graph is plotted, using the Intake Air Temperature sensor.

This particular sensor is located before the turbocharger, after/before the air filter box.
I don't think that's the case in all cars. Most of them take IAT reading from MAP sensor itself. It is like that in my S-Cross. MAP has integrated IAT sensor too.

Quote:
So, not sure how the readings from this sensor is changed after fitting an intercooler?!
We need to know the location of IAT sensor. Most likely it is not before turbo. Many NA cars have temperature sensor after air box but not in turbo charged cars.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 11th April 2018 at 10:12.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:15   #43
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
I don't think that's the case in all cars. Most of them take IAT reading from MAP sensor itself. It is like that in my S-Cross. MAP has integrated IAT sensor too.
In the S-Cross, do you have a sensor before the turbo, integrated into the air flow plumbing? Most probably after the air filter box to the turbo plumbing?

Whats it called?
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:17   #44
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
In the S-Cross, do you have a sensor before the turbo, integrated into the air flow plumbing? Most probably after the air filter box to the turbo plumbing?

Whats it called?
That is MAF sensor what you are talking about. The IAT reading in my S-Cross is not from MAF sensor. Hope it's clear!

PatchyBoy has clearly mentioned that it's "The intake air pressure/temperature sensor". So I believe that it is MAP sensor which has integrated temperature sensor too, very common in turbo charged cars.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 11th April 2018 at 10:29.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:32   #45
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Re: DIY: Bigger Intercooler Install for Fiat Linea T-Jet

Hmmm and one would think anyone into tuning biz would know where the sensors are. Why would any modern intercooled engine ecu depend on pre-cooled air temp for fueling and timing when what matters is the air temp in the manifold or after IC. And yes a larger IC would make a difference in our hot climate.
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