Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter

Neel · 9th March 2016, 09:48

Singapore thinks Tesla not having a tail pipe does not mean it is emission free.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...model-s-owner/

There could be a whole new meaning or definition to Emission norms and standards going forward, which will consider all aspects of the car and not just carbon emissions.

sgiitk · 9th March 2016, 09:55

You may have to consider the emissions of the power plant(s) which feed the batteries!! I think the Singapore babudom was being as pigheaed as ours!

Jeroen · 9th March 2016, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neel

Singapore thinks Tesla not having a tail pipe does not mean it is emission free.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...model-s-owner/

There could be a whole new meaning or definition to Emission norms and standards going forward, which will consider all aspects of the car and not just carbon emissions.

Interesting. An important part of pollution caused by cars is (fine) dust particle from wear of tires and to some extent brake pads

KiloAlpha · 9th March 2016, 11:43

I find it very curious as to how the Singapore government came up with the grid emissions equivalent of 0.5g/Wh (as mentioned in the Road&Track article). On what basis? And, did they test the Tesla at full chat acceleration to come up with the 444Wh/km?

Different modes of electricity generation emit different amounts of pollutants. In certain places, a high proportion of electricity is hydel/nuclear mix. Which is pretty much zero carbon and super clean - leaving aside the emissions and pollution during construction of the power plants themselves. What if the Tesla was housed in a garage with solar powered charging points? Would the 0.5g/Wh apply there as well?

It is all very grey, this computation of emissions for all-electric vehicles. Hope the investigation leads to come clear answers and sets precedents that the rest of the world can follow.

deetjohn · 9th March 2016, 12:08

Elon Musk is on the case already. He did so just hours after news broke. Mr. Musk spoke to the PM of Singapore who had visited Tesla' factory last month. The PM has offered an investigation.

Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter-capture.jpg

Let's see how it goes.

Source

Samurai · 9th March 2016, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neel

Singapore thinks Tesla not having a tail pipe does not mean it is emission free.

It is emission free, but that is not the same as zero carbon footprint. The electricity it needs was generated by carbon fuels, so Singapore was right in converting the carbon footprint to emission numbers for tax purposes.

Until Tesla charges purely on Solar power inverters, they'll have to deal with this carbon footprint baggage.

Rahulkool · 9th March 2016, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai

It is emission free, but that is not the same as zero carbon footprint. The electricity it needs was generated by carbon fuels, so Singapore was right in converting the carbon footprint to emission numbers for tax purposes.

Until Tesla charges purely on Solar power inverters, they'll have to deal with this carbon footprint baggage.

Problem is not zero emission or not, but the consumption of the car. The consumption given by the land transport authority of Singapore is double of what tesla quotes.

antz.bin · 9th March 2016, 15:36

Interestingly enough, BMW i3 electric clears the emission tax with flying colors earning itself a $7000 tax credit.

Anyways, Tesla will definitely sort this anomaly out themselves as and when the Singapore officials stop acting like Desi Babus.

sgiitk · 9th March 2016, 15:48

Maybe Singapore needs to be prosecuted for running on Fossil Fuel electricity? As I said there is some babu being pig headed, and we all know their habits.

asingh1977 · 9th March 2016, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai

It is emission free, but that is not the same as zero carbon footprint. The electricity it needs was generated by carbon fuels, so Singapore was right in converting the carbon footprint to emission numbers for tax purposes.

Until Tesla charges purely on Solar power inverters, they'll have to deal with this carbon footprint baggage.

In this manner actually nothing is emission free. Is not the manufacturing process of "anything" actually using some form of energy. And that source will have a fossil fuel (highly probably) power source binding. Oh wait, even the blades of a wind turbine running a clean energy unit were made using some sort of fuel when it was forged in the furnaces of hell..!

SGP is just being weird and out right uncanny converting the charging pool to the equivalent of electricity used x how much fuel was used to create the former. It will be an endless loop..!

alpha1 · 9th March 2016, 18:29

"Then they send out the results from VICOM, stating that the car was consuming 444 watt hour per kilometer (Wh/km). And then underneath it, there's a conversion to CO2 emission."

"As for all electric vehicles, a grid emission factor of 0.5 g CO2/Wh was also applied to the electric energy consumption. This is to account for CO2 emissions during the electricity generation process, even if there are no tail-pipe emissions."

I am not surprised.
This is exactly how a typical bureaucracy works.

Create some weird evaluation criteria which no one can fathom and they themselves cannot explain to create a selection / rejection criteria that favors some (who grease the palms).

Lets examine what the babudom is trying to measure:
Watt x hour / kilometer = Watt / (kilometer/hour)

Power per unit speed.
Of course this figure will creep up with speed.
a) Therefore at what speed was this figure arrived at?
b) And how the power consumption was measured?

Samurai · 9th March 2016, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by asingh1977

In this manner actually nothing is emission free. Is not the manufacturing process of "anything" actually using some form of energy. And that source will have a fossil fuel (highly probably) power source binding. Oh wait, even the blades of a wind turbine running a clean energy unit were made using some sort of fuel when it was forged in the furnaces of hell..!

This about OPEX, not CAPEX. So manufacturing process doesn't matter. Just the carbon cost of making the fuel is counted. Therefore, wind or solar or even hydroelectric will have zero carbon footprint.

antz.bin · 9th March 2016, 19:13

Guys, we are missing the point here! The Model S was subjected to the CEVS surcharge of $15000 SGD whereas the BMW i3 & i8 both qualify for a $30000 SGD rebate.

Source: http://electrek.co/2016/03/06/tesla-...usk-singapore/

Tesla Model S P85 has an EPA range of 265miles. Which means it runs for 265 miles (426km) on a full charge of 85kWh. This is 0.199kWh/km or 199Wh/km

Using the conversion factor of 0.5gm CO2/Wh, this comes to 99.5gm/km of CO2.

Somehow, the range calculation for the car has gone all wrong which has led to the calculation coming to 222gm/km of CO2.

The conversion factor of 0.5gm/Wh is about right considering the fact that roughly 1000gm/KWh of CO2 is generated when generating electricity through coal. Balancing this is the fact that <50g/KWh of CO2 is generated from Nuclear, Wind, hydro & solar. The mix brings it to an average value of 499.45gm/KWh for Singapore.

antz.bin · 10th March 2016, 01:06

Here is the entire story from the horse's mouth. I couldn't believe what I read was happening in Singapore and not India.

Read the full text of the agonising 7 month ordeal here: https://sg.news.yahoo.com/open-lette...135408775.html

ajmat · 10th March 2016, 11:01

On the other hand, I see a lot of BMW i3's running around Singapore. How do they manage it?

9th March 2016, 09:48	#1
Neel BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 178 Thanked: 35 Times	Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Singapore thinks Tesla not having a tail pipe does not mean it is emission free. http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...model-s-owner/ There could be a whole new meaning or definition to Emission norms and standards going forward, which will consider all aspects of the car and not just carbon emissions.
	(9) Thanks

9th March 2016, 09:55	#2
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter You may have to consider the emissions of the power plant(s) which feed the batteries!! I think the Singapore babudom was being as pigheaed as ours!
	(4) Thanks

9th March 2016, 11:43	#4
KiloAlpha Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Cubicle Posts: 1,605 Thanked: 3,002 Times	re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter I find it very curious as to how the Singapore government came up with the grid emissions equivalent of 0.5g/Wh (as mentioned in the Road&Track article). On what basis? And, did they test the Tesla at full chat acceleration to come up with the 444Wh/km? Different modes of electricity generation emit different amounts of pollutants. In certain places, a high proportion of electricity is hydel/nuclear mix. Which is pretty much zero carbon and super clean - leaving aside the emissions and pollution during construction of the power plants themselves. What if the Tesla was housed in a garage with solar powered charging points? Would the 0.5g/Wh apply there as well? It is all very grey, this computation of emissions for all-electric vehicles. Hope the investigation leads to come clear answers and sets precedents that the rest of the world can follow.
	(1) Thanks

9th March 2016, 12:08	#5
deetjohn Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kochi Posts: 4,530 Thanked: 10,583 Times View My Garage	re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Elon Musk is on the case already. He did so just hours after news broke. Mr. Musk spoke to the PM of Singapore who had visited Tesla' factory last month. The PM has offered an investigation. Let's see how it goes. Source
	(5) Thanks

9th March 2016, 15:36	#8
antz.bin BHPian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Pune Posts: 985 Thanked: 3,876 Times	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Interestingly enough, BMW i3 electric clears the emission tax with flying colors earning itself a $7000 tax credit. Anyways, Tesla will definitely sort this anomaly out themselves as and when the Singapore officials stop acting like Desi Babus.
	(2) Thanks

9th March 2016, 15:48	#9
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Maybe Singapore needs to be prosecuted for running on Fossil Fuel electricity? As I said there is some babu being pig headed, and we all know their habits.
	() Thanks

9th March 2016, 18:29	#11
alpha1 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LandOfNoWinters Posts: 2,093 Thanked: 2,603 Times	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter "Then they send out the results from VICOM, stating that the car was consuming 444 watt hour per kilometer (Wh/km). And then underneath it, there's a conversion to CO2 emission." "As for all electric vehicles, a grid emission factor of 0.5 g CO2/Wh was also applied to the electric energy consumption. This is to account for CO2 emissions during the electricity generation process, even if there are no tail-pipe emissions." I am not surprised. This is exactly how a typical bureaucracy works. Create some weird evaluation criteria which no one can fathom and they themselves cannot explain to create a selection / rejection criteria that favors some (who grease the palms). Lets examine what the babudom is trying to measure: Watt x hour / kilometer = Watt / (kilometer/hour) Power per unit speed. Of course this figure will creep up with speed. a) Therefore at what speed was this figure arrived at? b) And how the power consumption was measured?
	() Thanks

9th March 2016, 19:13	#13
antz.bin BHPian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Pune Posts: 985 Thanked: 3,876 Times	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Guys, we are missing the point here! The Model S was subjected to the CEVS surcharge of $15000 SGD whereas the BMW i3 & i8 both qualify for a $30000 SGD rebate. Source: http://electrek.co/2016/03/06/tesla-...usk-singapore/ Tesla Model S P85 has an EPA range of 265miles. Which means it runs for 265 miles (426km) on a full charge of 85kWh. This is 0.199kWh/km or 199Wh/km Using the conversion factor of 0.5gm CO2/Wh, this comes to 99.5gm/km of CO2. Somehow, the range calculation for the car has gone all wrong which has led to the calculation coming to 222gm/km of CO2. The conversion factor of 0.5gm/Wh is about right considering the fact that roughly 1000gm/KWh of CO2 is generated when generating electricity through coal. Balancing this is the fact that <50g/KWh of CO2 is generated from Nuclear, Wind, hydro & solar. The mix brings it to an average value of 499.45gm/KWh for Singapore.
	(1) Thanks

10th March 2016, 01:06	#14
antz.bin BHPian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Pune Posts: 985 Thanked: 3,876 Times	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter Here is the entire story from the horse's mouth. I couldn't believe what I read was happening in Singapore and not India. Read the full text of the agonising 7 month ordeal here: https://sg.news.yahoo.com/open-lette...135408775.html
	(2) Thanks

10th March 2016, 11:01	#15
ajmat Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 14,860 Thanked: 27,950 Times View My Garage	Re: Singapore thinks the Tesla Model S is a high polluter On the other hand, I see a lot of BMW i3's running around Singapore. How do they manage it?
	() Thanks