![]() | #1 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over!
Posts: 5,447
Thanked: 9,145 Times
| ![]() Ever since Tesla came up, Electric Vehicles have become a rage. Tesla wasn't the first company to offer EVs; they've been around for quite a while. The Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt are two of the initial commercial EVs introduced in the US. Back then, the technology being very nascent, these cars had a range of about 60-80 kms, weren't what you called fancy, suffered awful resale and also had issues surround the battery packs themselves. ![]() ![]() https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt Global warming sets the stage for EVs Global warming, climate change were already buzz words and there was a lot of discussion on how our climate was being affected by emissions arising of burning fossil fuels. The common man was the culprit, given our generous use of petroleum in our cars. Of course, people wanted to do something about it. Initiatives such as airlines displaying the CO2 emissions during your flight, Earth Hour, use of public transport and so on, sprung up to make one aware of their carbon footprint. Electric Vehicles were of course the "best" way to counter the argument of rising emissions - cut them completely! In the last five years or so, the popularity of EVs has risen significantly. Nearly every manufacturer: Ford with the Fusion, Honda with the Accord, Toyota with the Prius, started getting on the EV bandwagon. For a long time, EVs had enough handicaps for the average buyer to not consider them: the range was barely enough for a day or two and the cars were generally compact. Tesla And then came Tesla. It completely changed the face of what an EV is. The cars are built beautifully, have a very realistic range on a single charge, they have all the creature comforts you'd want, and good lord! are they powerful or what! To forever change things, Musk opened up Tesla's patents for the world to use. For free! https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-p...are-belong-you To take things forward, Tesla is doing its bit to offer charging stations across cities and even highways in the US. Now let's get back to the fundamental reason why EVs came up: to allow the common man to do their bit in protecting the environment by going "green". Reducing harmful emissions that our gasoline-powered are rather generous about. But. But, how "green" are these EVs, really? Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th August 2016 at 16:30. |
![]() | ![]() |
|
![]() | #2 | |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over!
Posts: 5,447
Thanked: 9,145 Times
| ![]() I've always had this question considering the basic fact that one of the most significant source of electricity, the same that is used to charge these EVs, is coal. And the emissions from burning coal can embarrass even a contingent of cars! So, let's get into it. To be fair, when we talk about emissions by a particular vehicle, we should account for both: the emissions during the production of that vehicle, and those when the vehicle is in use. This is a crucial Most of the data is available for the US but I also wanted to know the facts for India so I'll try to use information in a way that it applies to India as well. This following article claims that EVs in the US most definitely have lesser emissions that the gasoline counterparts. ![]() http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...hout-tailpipes But there's also a caveat: the emissions calculated per car depend on the source of electricity in that particular area! So, Quote:
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/...d-power-plant/ There's a steady mix of CO2, Particulate Matter (PM), Nitrogen Oxides (NOX), Ash, Sulphur Dioxide (SO2). Let's get down to the emissions of hydroelectric vs coal-powered power plants. Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels: ![]() https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11 Now here comes the fun part. Want to guess how electricity is produced in India? A whopping 73% of electricity generation in India happens via coal power plants. In contrast, that figure is at 40% in the US; natural gas being the other prominent source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ity_production http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/...ame_desc=false Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th August 2016 at 17:06. | |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #3 | ||||
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over!
Posts: 5,447
Thanked: 9,145 Times
| ![]() The following show just how complicated the argument is, for the amount of emissions between gasoline and EVs: ![]() http://insideevs.com/infographic-ele...-really-green/ Essentially, Quote:
Another article on how the Singapore Govt. reacted when someone imported a Tesla: they didn't give him a rebate, they fined him! http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160...les-green-cred Quote:
Beyond Emissions To take the argument further, it is not just the emissions during the charging of the EVs, but also the environmental harm that goes into their manufacturing that should be considered: Coming to the Lithium Ion batteries that power the EVs (and batteries in our other household appliances) Quote:
Quote:
http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...vironment.html Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th August 2016 at 17:14. | ||||
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #4 | ||
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over!
Posts: 5,447
Thanked: 9,145 Times
| ![]() In summary, what is then, the answer to the question: whether Electric Vehicles are "greener" than their gasoline counterparts? Electric Vehicles are only as green as the electricity that goes into charging them! Quote:
Quote:
Should we then go buy EVs to do our bit for planet Earth? Being in India, given our source of electricity, we'll probably end up doing more harm than good in promoting EVs. A lot of infrastructure needs to change for EVs to truly start making a positive impact. This doesn't mean, EVs have no purpose in our country. It implies that their time is yet to come! Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th August 2016 at 17:16. | ||
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #5 |
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thread moved from the Assembly Line to the Indian Car Scene. Thanks for sharing! |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #6 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Delhi
Posts: 5,401
Thanked: 7,057 Times
| ![]() Amazing thread and thanks for compiling that information. I read a few articles on this too during the recent media hoopla that was made around the launch of Tesla in India. But the fact remains: 1. Producing that electricity is more harmful for the environment, albeit its hurting someone else in a remote place and not the person driving the Tesla, at least not immediately. 2. The batteries themselves are a serious source of pollution and there is no concrete disposal mechanism in place either to safely discard them. Extending this logic further to our country and specially in context with the recent odd even rule and banning private cars ( which are more likely better maintained than a similar or even much younger commercial cab) will give us the same results possibly. There was also some debate regarding the carbon footprint of constructing a new car vs allowing a user to continue to drive their old car. |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #7 | |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() | ![]() Great thread. A few comments. Obviously, true that going for electrical cas, means swapping car emissions for power plant emission. Especially if the majority of those run on coal. But even then there are at least two very beneficial effects. Power plants generate energy in a very efficient way. Even taken into account the losses of the transport of electricity typically it appears to be more efficient then your powering your car with its own engine. Although, you can find studies on the net that suggest otherwise. Secondly, it does reduce emissions in town. You could argue it just dumps it somewhere else, but to my earlier point, overall it probably dumps less and it can have a significant positive effect on places with a high concentration of cars, e.g. towns. Here a few interesting data points on the wind energy in Europe: Here a few interesting data points on the wind energy in Europe: Quote:
So that is in a period of just a decade a very significant shift in completely emission free power generation! So electrical cars make a lot of sense in those countries. In countries such as the Netherlands lots of household these days have solar panels installed as well. Here in the area where I live I’d say about 40% of the houses have solar panels. That was 0% a decade ago. My wife and me are looking at building a new house and I’ve just found out that I can equip the house with roof tiles with solar panels built in. So it hardly shows. Domestic solar panels will either generate electricity or heat you boiler. It’s all very debatable how much each solution contributes to fewer emissions. However, there is one thing which is very concrete and measurable: All these various measures have brought emissions down significantly during the last two decades. You could argue about how much exactly and whether it should be more. The other very controversial thing which, I think is under estimate,d is the environmental impact of producing and scrapping electrical cars. Not the cars itself but the batteries. It’s definitely going to be a problem and remarkably the green lobby hasn’t picked up on this at all. It’s more an agenda of the anti-electrical car brigade then the green brigade. http://www.unep.or.jp/ietc/Publicati...T/Annex2_3.asp Jeroen Last edited by Jeroen : 27th August 2016 at 11:52. | |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #8 | |
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 552
Thanked: 923 Times
| ![]() Quote:
Why are they not considering the pollution caused by the drilling and pumping of crude oils? The power requirements of an oil refinery and the associated pollution? The fuel consumed and the pollution caused by the transportation of these fuel? Next comes the question of recycling. Have we considered the recycling costs of the various fluids that go into an IC engine vehicle over its life time? The engine oils, the transmission oils, Coolants etc? Are we considering the recycling costs of the no of parts that needs to be replaced in an IC engine over its lifetime? The fuel/oil itself is a rare mineral but the articles make a fuss about the rare minerals that go into a battery and motors of EV. The battery technology is progressing in the right direction with reducing usage of Lithium and more research is going into this field. No one could say that EV is the best or it is the future. But, at this given point, it is the only right and viable alternative that is available off the shelf. I have installed a 3KW grid tie solar setup on my roof and it costed me a little more than 2L. Exactly an year ago, the same setup costed 4L. With falling prices for greener energy, we do not have to continue to depend on the coal powered thermal plants for long. The world is moving towards greener energy. | |
![]() | ![]() |
|
![]() | #9 |
BHPian ![]() | ![]() I also owned a 2KW solar and micro wind turbine grid installed in the outskirts of Mumbai. In 2006. 10 years later, after enjoying the benefits of never paying for lighting and ventilation, the prices have fallen so significantly that it makes for an obviously favorable case. I have always dreamed of powering my future Tesla by my own grid. In 10 years, perhaps this will be a reality in India? |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #10 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() All the points are valid. However we must also consider the advantage that pollution will be localized to a different area so populated big metros will have cleaner air if EVs rise in popularity. Secondly, what about the energy consumed in running service centers? Authorized and private garages? Inventory and stock will be much more for a conventional ICE which will mean a lot more energy consumption in terms of transportation. Then there is the pollution caused by refineries responsible in supplying you with your annual engine oil change. I am not a huge fan of electric vehicles in fact from a driver involvement stanpoint, I much prefer our good old petrol powered cars. But such focused reports and conclusions, seem to be propaganda generated by the big oil companies. I would rather like to see a more detailed report investigating other details like maintenance in the long term, a comparison of energy consumed in the mining of coal vs the energy consumed in the extraction and refining of crude oil etc. I am no expert but it seems like someone high up has conveniently chosen only to ask one question and left many others out. ![]() Last edited by IshaanIan : 27th August 2016 at 17:59. |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #11 | |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 290
Thanked: 738 Times
| ![]() Quote:
The data provided in this thread is skewed. There is no case for not going towards the EV future. The simple fact is that coal power stations has been running for decades but the problem of pollution and its related ill affects came up only after vehicular population increased exponentially in the recent years, says for itself. Power generators (coal, gas) run at better efficiency and its exhaust can be much easily dispersed into the atmosphere away from human habitations. The opposite is the case with car engines where it is concentrated and directly affects the users. Moreover we are gradually switching over to green (Solar, wind, hydro, biomass) energy which the Govt is pushing in a big way. All these together have incremental benefits which will sum up to obviate the need to burn petroleum for vehicles. Disposal of LI Ion batteries can be accepted as a problem now, but we are still a decade away from 'crossing that bridge'. Sure to get resolved by that time. Last edited by fordday : 27th August 2016 at 18:02. Reason: More info | |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #12 | |||||
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: All over!
Posts: 5,447
Thanked: 9,145 Times
| ![]() For those who find the data skewed or feel the thread is biased against EVs, here's the thing: it's not. I honestly don't feel any differently about either gasoline-powered or electric vehicles. Given the EV hype, I've been curious about how much greener they really are, and hence, did some research. It absolutely won't convince many, it hasn't yet convinced me! The crux of the matter is, at the moment, are EVs greener than gasoline vehicles. For the most part, not. As some data highlights, EVs are already greener in areas where electricity is generated off natural gas/renewable energy. But given India's reliance on coal for electricity generation, not yet. Quote:
We have abundance when it comes to sunlight and wind and it's a pity we aren't harnessing them to their true potential. From your grid, what is the kind of electricity you generate? I mean, how many appliances can you run, for how long? Btw, I hope you've booked your Tesla ![]() Quote:
Another point: with the limited kind of access or knowledge that most of us have to data, most of our understanding will be based on someone's perspective. And that will depend on which side that someone is on! Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
![]() Last edited by libranof1987 : 27th August 2016 at 19:32. | |||||
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #13 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() What do you mean by this? On one hand you are agreeing that yes, humans living in populated cities will benefit from less air pollution and on the other you're saying you don't agree? Come on man, it's not like I said the planet doesn't get affected. Let us learn to agree to valid points and build a discussion. Aggressively defending reports in this manner can be done by anyone. Quote:
![]() Last edited by Aditya : 28th August 2016 at 18:42. Reason: Typos | |
![]() |
![]() | #14 |
Senior - BHPian | ![]() What about the sources used to generate electricity? True, we have many coal powered plants producing electricity. But you could build plants to run on natural gas or even atomic power. So at least in theory it is possible to clean up the source generating electricity. But how will you clean up millions of vehicles polluting the environment? So, while today you can't produce electricity without burning coal, you will have much cleaner alternatives including renewable energy to produce power. But you must have an electric vehicle to harness that. How about a Reva with a solar panelled roof, a literal sun roof? It will charge itself up while you work in office. No coal, no oil. Clean, plain sunlight. Try that with a gasoline engine :-) |
![]() | ![]() |
![]() | #15 | ||
BHPian ![]() | ![]() Quote:
Quote:
I haven't booked a Tesla in India because they aren't available and because I don't believe we are ready for mass produced EV's yet, as a country. As this thread highlights, the awareness levels are too low amongst enthusiasts, so how can our politicians pass laws that are supportive if we ourselves know so little? A great case in point is your comment on pollution in an urban center equalling pollution anywhere else. That's just not true simply because of the environment's ability to absorb up to a certain level of pollutants with minimal impact. In a major Indian city, with millions of inhabitants, that absorption threshold is far exceeded. And so, every new car on the road in Bombay or Bangalore damages the environment far more than a new car in a remote village for example. Till a charging infrastructure exists, our best option is CNG. I really hope we as a nation embrace this fuel over the next decade while our EV awareness levels rise. Last edited by Screwdriva : 27th August 2016 at 21:57. | ||
![]() | ![]() |