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Old 20th November 2017, 14:14   #16
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

The number one argument of people critical about electric vehicles is about Coal. Is Coal going to be a permanent source of producing electricity ?

There is still a vast potential of tapping hydel power in India. I know that in Karnataka there a lots of smaller hydel plants even now being installed. Solar and Wind plants are also on the rise.

Going electric for mobility might give a fillip to renewable energy production and should take of pollution. There are no alternatives for both.
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Old 20th November 2017, 15:30   #17
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

I think the idea of setting 2030 as a milestone is to think fast. I am sure the government must have considered all the pros and cons of having an infrastructure for electrical cars in place so quickly, but some of these can be understood only with trials and this is where the government is currently doing a better job by asking Tata and Mahindra to provide electric cars without first pushing it on the customers.

I think 2030 is a good enough target. It will cumulatively change the way India thinks about power generation, pollution and environment. Think about it, we might not achieve 100% electric cars on roads by 2030, but if small city cars and public transport buses get electrified, it is always a better environment to live in compared to the current situation.

I wont argue much on how an electric car is equally polluting than IC engined ones. The thing is these electric cars dont pollute the environment where humans live. To give an example, think what would happen if all Mumbai local trains were to run on diesel engines instead of electric multiple units. As it is commuters suffocate in the crowded trains, they would probably stop breathing at CST or Dadar
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Old 20th November 2017, 18:44   #18
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

Even if coal power plants have a lion's share of power generation, the pollution is localized and can be improved upon.

Question: What pollution is easier to manage? Pollution from 10 million automobiles or pollution for 4 coal power plants? Pour enough money into coal R&D power plants and it will probably start belching out oxygen, instead of CO2.

Example 1: This power plant in Canada absorbs 90% of CO2 produced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounda..._Power_Station

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Example 2: This coal power plant has near zero emissions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwar..._power_station

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There are many such examples. Yes, technology is not perfect and it is currently economically unviable. But as I said, pour enough money into this technology and you will have both clean transportation in the city (thanks to electric vehicles) and no pollution in the country side. From what I understand, we have the technology to drastically reduce pollution even from EXISTING coal fired power plants

Last edited by SmartCat : 20th November 2017 at 19:08.
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Old 20th November 2017, 20:43   #19
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
It is disturbing to note that the leadership and bureaucracy are pushing for electric motor vehicles by 2030 (China has targeted 2040), without much research and objective, analytical backing.
Sorry to quote you here, but the fact is that the 100% electrification is for fleet while only 40% of private vehicles by 2030.(This is the research outcome of Rocky Mountain Institute.)

I'm sure you're aware of the smog situation happening in and around India (specifically Delhi NCR) ... do you still feel shift from ICE to EV is a bad step.

Talking about battery disposal, Prof.Jhunjhunwala in various forums (including the ACMA meeting held in Aug 2017) clearly stated about the recycling of Li-Ion batteries.
Primarily (after vehicle use but with 80% life) the batteries are put to use to store energy from Solar Panels/ grids etc and beyond which they're declared dead.

We've all seen what happened in the name of Hybrid, not to mention technologies with simple start - stop and regenerative braking and meagre Fuel improvement by 7% (ARAI claimed). Such technologies led the Govt. to believe that they're being eye-washed in the name of Hybrid.

Lastly the purpose of reducing oil import and emissions will fail if Hybrids are allowed.

Until the industry was pushed to BS6 from BS4, no one was willing, however once it was decided OEMs are actually working their way towards it.

So it is inevitable for the Govt. to seek industry opinion before it has to take such stringent actions.

We are fretting over an issue of which we don't even know (100% EV)
Had it been the case OEMs (Toyota & Suzuki) wouldn't have jumped the band wagon. Instead worked towards Hybrids or FCEV
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Old 20th November 2017, 20:58   #20
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Originally Posted by FIAT3031 View Post
We've all seen what happened in the name of Hybrid, not to mention technologies with simple start - stop and regenerative braking and meagre Fuel improvement by 7% (ARAI claimed). Such technologies led the Govt. to believe that they're being eye-washed in the name of Hybrid.

Lastly the purpose of reducing oil import and emissions will fail if Hybrids are allowed.

So it is inevitable for the Govt. to seek industry opinion
Won't oil imports and emissions reduce if hybrids like Prius and Camry Hybrid is used instead of normal petrol diesel cars ? Please be aware that real hybrids are more efficient and less polluting.

The government was hoodwinked and defrauded by one single manufacturer abusing the word Hybrid. The government should have tweaked the term hybrid to a vehicle capable of running on battery power alone at least for 500 metres.

You can't run without first learning to walk
The government is trying to do exactly that.

Who is the minister in charge of the hybrid policy? The same one with high IQ who thinks urea fertilizer can be manufactured cheaply by collecting urine

Last edited by Ragavsr : 20th November 2017 at 21:00.
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Old 20th November 2017, 21:34   #21
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Won't oil imports and emissions reduce if hybrids like Prius and Camry Hybrid is used instead of normal petrol diesel cars ?
Iím not quite sure if strong hybrid which is offered in the premium segment would be able to actually bring down oil import.

While the FAME was there amounting to nearly a Lakh along with zero VAT and registration charges for strong hybrids.. why didnít OEM take advantage and utilise it to introduce models in India ??

Again whatís not answered is how would the emissions be reduced by hybrids ?

Youíre right that Hybrids could be a stepping stone, however look at it from OEM perspective.
Even if the Govt would allow hybrids for 5 - 7 years (assume )
Do you think as an OEM you would invest for such a short duration ?

Ultimately the future is electric
We need to Accept it or get ICED
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Old 21st November 2017, 00:24   #22
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Even if coal power plants have a lion's share of power generation, the pollution is localized and can be improved upon.

Question: What pollution is easier to manage? Pollution from 10 million automobiles or pollution for 4 coal power plants? Pour enough money into coal R&D power plants and it will probably start belching out oxygen, instead of CO2.
I wish this was true, but scientifically not possible, combustion will consume oxygen not produce. Wait, we're you only being rhetorical? Coal has been around for centuries now. Whatever improvements were possible have been made, but technology has reached limits. If it was so clean, the western countries would be building more of these, than phasing them out. They did try to keep them running because a lot of jobs depended on coal and coal fired power.

On the other hand, though I don't agree, can't one say pour enough money into internal combustion engines and they'll be clean enough?
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Old 21st November 2017, 00:40   #23
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Coal has been around for centuries now. Whatever improvements were possible have been made, but technology has reached limits.
Reached the limits? Barely scratched the surface is more like it. There was no need for clean coal till now, because awareness of global warming and air pollution is a relatively recent phenomenon. Industrial conglomerates like Siemens and GE are spending big R&D money on cleaner coal.

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If it was so clean, the western countries would be building more of these, than phasing them out. They did try to keep them running because a lot of jobs depended on coal and coal fired power.
Air pollution is not a major issue in Western countries. Why produce coal power at $2 per unit (clean coal), if it can be produced at $1 per unit (dirty coal)? But China has a major pollution problem, and they are investing in low emission coal technology, despite the higher cost of power production.

By 2020, every Chinese coal plant will be more efficient than every US coal plant
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...a-coal-cleaner

Since Indian cities are polluted too, India won't be far behind China in adopting cleaner Coal technologies.

India announces mission on clean coal utilisation
http://www.business-standard.com/art...0801417_1.html

Last edited by SmartCat : 21st November 2017 at 00:45.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:48   #24
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Renewable or non-conventional energy: 1.2 %
We need to get this number almost as high or higher than our coal plants. For a country that sees the sun for most part of the year, we need to harness this source much more than we do today.

I don't have any math to support my claim. I just find it hard to believe that some professionals in the industry claim that we are probably better off with IC than electric.

Let us say our cities had only electric vehicles plying and we use a mix of renewable energy and all forms of fossil fuel to charge these electric runabouts. I bet the air will be cleaner than 20 million vehicles pumping harmful gasses into the atmosphere.
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Old 21st November 2017, 13:18   #25
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Since Indian cities are polluted too, India won't be far behind China in adopting cleaner Coal technologies.

India announces mission on clean coal utilisation
http://www.business-standard.com/art...0801417_1.html
I do hope they succeed, because cleaner coal power will be boon for India as we have lot of coal reserves and as a fast growing country the need for power other than to power cars is also huge.
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Old 21st November 2017, 23:37   #26
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Reached the limits? Barely scratched the surface is more like it. There was no need for clean coal till now, because awareness of global warming and air pollution is a relatively recent phenomenon. Industrial conglomerates like Siemens and GE are spending big R&D money on cleaner coal.


By 2020, every Chinese coal plant will be more efficient than every US coal plant
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...a-coal-cleaner

Since Indian cities are polluted too, India won't be far behind China in adopting cleaner Coal technologies.
Yes, in fact the Obama Plan 2020 called for a drastic reduction in usage of fossil fuels and to cut emission of greenhouse gases:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...actionplan.pdf

But as that meant the death knell for the US located, coal fired, thermal power plants plus some other drastic action, the present leadership in the US has shelved it.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 21st November 2017 at 23:47.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:38   #27
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

India's quest for cleaner coal based power moves forward.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1DL1FL
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Old 22nd November 2017, 16:18   #28
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Default Re: BS-VI cars vs electric cars

Then there is this advice not to buy new cars now. To buy or not to buy is the question.

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Consider this: petrol and diesel cars are on their way out. India is zipping ahead on its path to embrace electric cars as automakers as well as the government are gearing up to bring electric mobility to the country, and fast. Next year, a number of electric cars will hit the road and you will get to see more charging stations.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 16:28   #29
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Then there is this advice not to buy new cars now. To buy or not to buy is the question.
I think it is way too early to start writing obituaries for conventional cars. While electric cars would certainly work for those in city who would use them for commuting, what about those in smaller cities and towns? The car at my hometown is cranked once every few days, sometimes only on weekends. I am sure batteries will not take kindly to such sporadic usage, when it comes to their life.

However, from the perspective of use for daily commuting to office, I think electric cars are an unbeatable proposition. The other day, I commuted nearly 85 kms on a weekday going from home to office, then to wife's office to pick her up, then to attend a wedding and finally return home late in the night. I don't think I will ever do more kms in a working day. And nearly every electric vehicle today can do this on a single charge.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 16:33   #30
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Then there is this advice not to buy new cars now. To buy or not to buy is the question.
Looks like a 'filler page', which no real content other than links to older news. They might as well put "Lorem Ipsum Dolor Sit Amet" on that page.
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