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Old 13th June 2018, 07:22   #61
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

In search of reduced costs and strong profit margins,Tesla to lay-off 9% of the workforce. All affected are from the salaried workforce, no production personnel are part of the lay-off.

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Along with the internal cuts, Tesla won't be renewing its solar and battery sales agreement with Home Depot, in an attempt to focus on its own stores and online sales.

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Old 13th June 2018, 09:44   #62
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

Unbeknownst to most, while Tesla is hogging the electric limelight with its hype-machine, Mercedes has become the EV leader in terms of technology. AND they know production.

I'd put my bets here:

Mercedes is quietly becoming Tesla's biggest rival

Mercedes, Nissan and now Jaguar with their iPace have demonstrated that the TECHNOLOGY behind EVs is repeatable. They are masters of mass production, too.

Tesla is rapidly losing its halo, and is running out of its early adopter advantage.

Last edited by Steeroid : 13th June 2018 at 09:45.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:25   #63
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

I agree. Its going to be really an uphill task for Tesla in future. They enjoyed a market devoid of competitors for some time but these other makers were doing R&D and waiting ! They might be electric cars but they are still cars and they have some emotion and sentiments associated with them. I believe their designs are too plain and cumbersome for interior controls (using the same screen for everything)

Tesla Model S was and is good. But cant say that Model 3 has anything that would really separate them from other car makers when they get into the market. Power plant is not everything in a car. They are also looking at profitability and pleasing the markets with layoffs and all now.

Last edited by srishiva : 13th June 2018 at 10:31.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:15   #64
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Unbeknownst to most, while Tesla is hogging the electric limelight with its hype-machine, Mercedes has become the EV leader in terms of technology. AND they know production.

I'd put my bets here:

Mercedes is quietly becoming Tesla's biggest rival

Mercedes, Nissan and now Jaguar with their iPace have demonstrated that the TECHNOLOGY behind EVs is repeatable. They are masters of mass production, too.

Tesla is rapidly losing its halo, and is running out of its early adopter advantage.
Three things:
1. Tesla as an electric vehicle brand is cooler than Mercedes and therefore the point number 2 follows.
2. If Mercedes wants to manufacture EV's at scale, where are they going to get all the batteries that they would need to do so. If they do not have their own gigafactory like Tesla, they are going to purchase them from the market. If they are going to purchase them from the market, it will be at the market cost and not at the manufacturing cost. (Remember also that they will not be the only manufacturer looking out for batteries and when the demand is more and supply is less, you are bound to pay significantly more) So to match Tesla either they will have to compromise on features and range to arrive at the same cost which is a no go or price them significantly higher than Tesla which is a no go as well since as a brand Tesla is cool and has the same if not more cachet.
3. Tesla is more software company than Mercedes ever can be or will be and I cannot state how big an advantage this will be.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 13th June 2018 at 11:27.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:05   #65
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

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Three things:
1. Tesla as an electric vehicle brand is cooler than Mercedes and therefore the point number 2 follows.
Certainly debatable. Brand value of Mercedes-Benz is much higher than the Tesla. Tesla might appeal to many but it can’t match the status, regality and overall finesse of Mercedes-Benz.
If I may be allowed to compare these brands to phones, Mercedes is more like Apple, Tesla is like One Plus.

Also look at Model 3. I’m sure you’ve seen it’s dash. It’s over-simplified. Not something you’d consider as a driver’s car. Pretty sure Teslas will morph into a self-driving cabins with no steering and pedals itself. Mercedes can never do that. Let car be a car.

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2. If Mercedes wants to manufacture EV's at scale, where are they going to get all the batteries that they would need to do so. If they do not have their own gigafactory like Tesla, they are going to purchase them from the market. If they are going to purchase them from the market, it will be at the market cost and not at the manufacturing cost. (Remember also that they will not be the only manufacturer looking out for batteries and when the demand is more and supply is less, you are bound to pay significantly more) So to match Tesla either they will have to compromise on features and range to arrive at the same cost which is a no go or price them significantly higher than Tesla which is a no go as well since as a brand Tesla is cool and has the same if not more cachet.
Mercedes are the giants of automobile industry. You can be rest assured that they’d have done their homework. And done it well.

And at the risk of sounding biased, as an owner of a Mercedes GLA, which is supposedly entry level and hence by logic, built to cost..I can assure you it’s as well built as any of it’s more expensive siblings. It’s of the highest quality. Unlike other manufacturers, MB does not cut costs at the expense of quality.
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3. Tesla is more software company than Mercedes ever can be or will be and I cannot state how big an advantage this will be.
The only advantage Tesla currently have is of being the first-movers.

And to be honest, despite this criticism, I love Tesla. Before them, EVs were just fancy electric appliances, not a car. But like I’ve said before on other posts, they’re better off collaborating with german giants with Elon Musk having the upper hand in the partnership of course. Musk I feel is more of a “revolutionalizing this world” kind of the guy rather than a businessman.
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Old 13th June 2018, 20:11   #66
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Default Tesla to lay off 9% of its global workforce

Tesla will lay off about 3,500 workers in an effort to boost profitability, CEO Elon Musk wrote in a company email.

Tesla has not made an annual profit in 15 years. The company posted its largest quarterly loss, of more than $700 million, earlier this year.

Tesla shares are up by 3% ever since the announcement.

Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!-screenshot_20180613200135.png

Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!-img_20180613_200008.jpg

Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!-img_20180613_200252.jpg

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 13th June 2018 at 20:15.
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:48   #67
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Certainly debatable. Brand value of Mercedes-Benz is much higher than the Tesla. Tesla might appeal to many but it can’t match the status, regality and overall finesse of Mercedes-Benz.
If I may be allowed to compare these brands to phones, Mercedes is more like Apple, Tesla is like One Plus.
I did not say the brand value of Tesla is higher than Mercedes, I said Tesla's brand value in the EV space is higher than a similar Mercedes that is if Mercedes can have a car with the same capability at the same price. Its a bit like Apple. iPhone as soon as it was launched was way cooler than any Nokia or Samsung at the time but Apple wasnt competing with Nokia-Ericsson in the wireless space.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Also look at Model 3. I’m sure you’ve seen it’s dash. It’s over-simplified. Not something you’d consider as a driver’s car. Pretty sure Teslas will morph into a self-driving cabins with no steering and pedals itself. Mercedes can never do that. Let car be a car.
Yes i have seen the aforementioned oversimplified interiors of the 3 and most criticism comes from the fact that it doesnt have a regular speedo console which I agree with. Also do not forget, the same simplification means that their infotainment system is way better than any one else on the market and the most coolest (pun very much intended) climate control vents on any car.

Tesla's rethinking how an automobile should look and feel and work and if they only followed the incumbent, they will be like one of them in no time. No past baggage is the reason why Tesla is what it is. Who knew you could get new features for your car off the air while it stands in your garage!

The rest of your post is mere speculation.


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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Mercedes are the giants of automobile industry. You can be rest assured that they’d have done their homework. And done it well.
Again mere speculations. Do they have a battery factory? Are they even producing as many EV's as Tesla today even with all the issues? Nokia was a giant too. There are no facts in your statement.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
And at the risk of sounding biased, as an owner of a Mercedes GLA, which is supposedly entry level and hence by logic, built to cost..I can assure you it’s as well built as any of it’s more expensive siblings. It’s of the highest quality. Unlike other manufacturers, MB does not cut costs at the expense of quality.
Its not entry level in the segment, its entry level for Mercedes which are expensive anyways.
Speaking of quality, it is subjective for most part. The only objective measurement of quality (and I associate quality with engineering) is how long a car lasts and may be the crash test rating and with that in mind, there no Mercedes which can even outlast a $15k Toyota Corolla.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
The only advantage Tesla currently have is of being the first-movers.
Of course. They made EV's mainstream so much so that every car maker now wants to go EV. I will take the liberty to bring in iPhone again, there were phones before iPhone and there were phones after iPhones. Their advantage is not merely being a first mover, their advantage stems from the fact that because they were the first mover, they now have the capability and the capacity to build EV's at a scale and at a cost where they can sell them in volume. Tesla 3 is already outselling the German big three in USA and thats with all the so called quality issues, production problems etc etc.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
And to be honest, despite this criticism, I love Tesla. Before them, EVs were just fancy electric appliances, not a car. But like I’ve said before on other posts, they’re better off collaborating with german giants with Elon Musk having the upper hand in the partnership of course. Musk I feel is more of a “revolutionalizing this world” kind of the guy rather than a businessman.
Oh no! You could not be more wrong. Disruption is always a result of an outsider looking at the industry from another perspective. A perspective which is lost on the people working in the industry. We would have never gotten an iPhone if Apple had collaborated with Nokia for a phone. I dont know if you remember but the last time Apple partnered with Motorola, the result was a disastrous Moto Rockr.

Last edited by Rehaan : 15th June 2018 at 13:02. Reason: Fixing quote tag :)
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:42   #68
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Mercedes has become the EV leader in terms of technology. AND they know production.
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Three things:
1. Tesla as an electric vehicle brand is cooler than Mercedes and therefore the point number 2 follows.
Perhaps Tesla is a 'cooler' EV brand. But I don't think that "therefore" the rest of the points you make follow ... at all. Steeroid's comment about Mercedes' technological and production prowess stands on its own merit, especially because the link he shared acknowledges the fact that Tesla has a first-mover advantage, and that Mercedes will have to put in the legwork (and money) to catch up.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
2. If Mercedes wants to manufacture EV's at scale, where are they going to get all the batteries that they would need to do so. If they do not have their own gigafactory like Tesla, they are going to purchase them from the market. If they are going to purchase them from the market, it will be at the market cost and not at the manufacturing cost. (Remember also that they will not be the only manufacturer looking out for batteries and when the demand is more and supply is less, you are bound to pay significantly more) So to match Tesla either they will have to compromise on features and range to arrive at the same cost which is a no go or price them significantly higher than Tesla which is a no go as well since as a brand Tesla is cool and has the same if not more cachet.
Your point though made clearly, has significant holes.

There are three major automotive battery suppliers in the market at the moment. LG Chem and Samsung SDI, headquartered in Korea, and Panasonic, with it's headquarters in Japan . The Gigafactory (great branding by the way) in Nevada produces batteries in collaboration/partnership with Panasonic. Tesla, does not own the battery I.P., Panasonic does. In fact, Panasonic has been increasing production at their other battery plants, and even tooling some of their old TV/display panel factories to enable battery production [1]. If other car manufacturers wish to buy Panasonic batteries, they'll sell them batteries.

Aside from that, the battery cells that Panasonic was selling to Tesla, were cylindrical cells. Though safer than prismatic cell batteries (like the ones used in cellphones), these cylindrical cells have obvious packaging (and somewhat related energy density handicaps). Panasonic itself, is starting to produce the newer prismatic cells ... in China [1]. Panasonic has also lost a few contracts to LG and Samsung recently. If I recall correctly, the I-Pace uses LG Chem batteries, but don't quote me on this.

While Tesla might be a 'cool' brand, Mercedes has deep pockets and can subsidize the R&D, production and sale of their EVs with their dino-juice powered vehicles (Toyota followed a similar route with the Prius too). So if Mercedes wants to buy batteries, in bulk, they'll be able to do so.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
3. Tesla is more software company than Mercedes ever can be or will be and I cannot state how big an advantage this will be.
Going out on a limb, are we? Consider some of the alternatives at least. For example, Google (Alphabet?) with it's Waymo subsidiary is ahead of every one else as far as self-driving/autonomous vehicles are concerned [2]. And all signs point to the fact that Waymo might license this technology (Partnering with FCA/Jaguar etc.). In such a world, do you think Tesla has a significant software advantage?

Secondly, take a moment to go through the NTSB report [3] [4] on the Tesla that crashed into a divider. I've listed an excerpt here:

Quote:
  • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle.
  • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increased from 62 to 70.8 mph, with no precrash braking or evasive steering movement detected.
Tesla's AutoPilot system (terrible branding this time by the way, because it leads people into a false sense of safety) actually accelerated before an impact with the barrier without any driver input and the cruise control being active. I am sure you can come back and point me towards recalls/issues with other cars, but the point is, this is a software + sensor systems issue. Self-driving cars are a hard problem, but Tesla in this case might have succumbed to the Silicon Valley trope of moving fast and breaking things, with grave consequences.

I wouldn't be too quick to hand the trophy to Tesla, and to dismiss Mercedes (and other manufacturers) just yet.

[1] Panasonic Batteries

[2]Waymo road testing lead

[3]NTSB Tesla Investigation

[4]NPR summary of NTSB Investigation

Last edited by Amartya : 14th June 2018 at 10:44.
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Old 14th June 2018, 14:11   #69
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

From my own experience with prismatic cells vs cylindrical cells 18650, I found the 18650 are fare more reliable and safe. All of my prismatic cells have puffed and I used them for my RC cars/planes/multirotors but 18650 on the other hand are vastly more reliable.

18650/21700 outside of cars are used mainly in laptops and cordless power tools(which have to withstand rough use, dropping them down, tough environments etc).

In a cylindrical battery if done right you can use the space between the cells for cooling passively or in case of tesla use active cooling/heating for the right optimum temperature.
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Old 14th June 2018, 15:07   #70
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Default Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its global workforce

It's pressure. Must be like a pressure cooker in there. Tesla is burning way too much money (a billion a quarter), profitability still isn't achieved, the Model 3 has hit production snags and well, the competition is arriving. Everyone else is adding the finishing touches to their electric cars.

Musk has publicly committed to profits by the end of 2018. And it sure needs to trim the fat - the company has almost 40,000 employees but an output of merely 10,000 cars a month.

P.S. No factory workers will be laid off in this reorganisation.
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Old 14th June 2018, 16:21   #71
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Default Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its global workforce

Companies don't go bust because they are making a loss. Companies go bust because they have a negative cash flow. Positive margin don't automatically mean positive cash flow either.

If anything, not wanting to get to technical, look at economic profit as it factors in the cost of capital.

Tesla/Musk's real problem is cash flow. Do they have enough cash to last. That is down to the investors and to some extend to the creditors (can you wait for your payment?

Real blow for these folks that are going to be laid off. I'm sure many of them joined because this sounded as a real exciting and new adventure. People like being part of such initiatives of course. Can you imagine how it would to be part of the team that puts these new factories into production? It must be really exiting and challenging.

I do hope Tesla/Musk makes it through. I am not particulary keen on electrical cars or Tesla's for that matter. But truth be told, I just dont hold car manufactureres in particular high regards. If anything guys like Musk has the ability to shake up a whole industry and that is about hight time.

So from that point alone, I do hope that Tesla pulls through. Would I ever invest in Tesla? Not a single penny!

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Old 14th June 2018, 16:21   #72
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Default re: Tesla incurs loss of 523 million. EDIT: Now posts a profit!

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Mercedes ...

Again mere speculations. Do they have a battery factory? Are they even producing as many EV's as Tesla today even with all the issues? Nokia was a giant too. There are no facts in your statement.
Yes, they do - Accumotive

https://www.daimler.com/innovation/e...amenz2017.html

Last edited by Rehaan : 15th June 2018 at 13:03. Reason: Fixing mis-attributed quote tag :)
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Old 14th June 2018, 16:29   #73
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Default Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its global workforce

One of the biggest misconceptions of being an entrepreneur is "You are your own boss". But that is true only if you are consistently cash flow positive. If you are dependent on external cash (either in the form of equity or debt), your new bosses are shareholders or creditors!
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Old 14th June 2018, 16:52   #74
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One of the biggest misconceptions of being an entrepreneur is "You are your own boss". But that is true only if you are consistently cash flow positive. If you are dependent on external cash (either in the form of equity or debt), your new bosses are shareholders or creditors!

Absolutely. It is probably true for any type of commercial enterprise. But this sort of entrepreneurs have even bigger reliance on their shareholders and or creditors. The sort of investors that support entrepreneurs like Musk are also very actively involved. You can't brush them off with a quarterly/annual report.

A did a course at Stanford a few years ago and we met with a couple of the big venture capital guys girls. Not your typical high street bankerlenders at all.

They really emerge themselves in the business they take on.

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Old 14th June 2018, 19:27   #75
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...I do hope that Tesla pulls through...
Silicon Valley companies are the masters of deception. They project themselves to be something but profit from something else. Facebook and Google profit from killing our privacy. Apple profits from forcing us to buy new iPhone every couple of years. They project themselves as innovative and disruptive when in reality it is just massive capital play.

Elan Musk wants to project himself as saviour of the world, but he is actually selling guilt-free consumption to the West struggling to justify their unbridled consumption against the backdrop of growing environmental consciousness. So that Americans can buy a new Tesla every two years and pat themselves on the back for their contribution to the environment. Or travel in personal luxury cars in high speed transit tunnels without feeling guilty for not taking (or building) trains.

The day I see a company that lowers our consumption by intentionally limited production, creates more jobs for humans as against massive automation, and you know just turn the clock back is when I would say they are different and need our sympathy and support.

Sorry about the rant. I am fine with Tesla and Musk, maybe a bit better than others but governed by the same singular principle of capital seeking profit.
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