[AccordSport]

Originally Posted by androdev

The day I see a company that lowers our consumption by intentionally limited production, creates more jobs for humans as against massive automation, and you know just turn the clock back is when I would say they are different and need our sympathy and support.

I dont get it. Do you really want to go back to manual work rather than automation?

I think the way Elon is projecting by 2020 the manufacturing process will be revolutionized.( though I personally dont believe his timelines ).

Automation is the future whether people like it ot not. Doing manual work in car manufacturing is not the future!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by androdev

Silicon Valley companies are the masters of deception. They project themselves to be something but profit from something else. Facebook and Google profit from killing our privacy. Apple profits from forcing us to buy new iPhone every couple of years. They project themselves as innovative and disruptive when in reality it is just massive capital play.



t.

Nobody forces you to use Facebook, google or use an Apple device, let alone forces you to buy an upgrade. There are plenty alternatives for each.

The fact that so many people use their services and products probably says something about how much they like it. If privacy is a concern, you are free to dump them. No penalty, no cost, none whatsoever. With all the commotion on privacy; I don't see it impacting the use of their services. Mostly it seems to be impacting legislation rather then customers dumping these companies.

I have checked what Facebook has on me. It is a service they offer. I'm fine with it.

So feel free to rant and rave, but I don't get your point. I like Facebook and Google so I use them. You seem to dislike them. So don't use them, plenty of alternatieve. VUT nobody is holding a knife to your throat and is making you use or buy these services and or products.

Jeroen

I would think they are actually innovative and to some extend disruptive. Although both Facebook and Google are more part of the establishment compared to Tesla.

[androdev]

I quoted your "I hope Tesla pulls through" point and offered my view on Silicon Valley companies of their greed for profit powered by enormous capital. In my opinion it is dangerous to the society to have humongous corporations like Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, etc. and silicon valley is obsessed with producing such companies by sheer capital play. Don't kid yourself that it is due to innovation and not capital. With sufficient capital, everything can be reimagined - that is the secret sauce of these companies and innovation is limited to PR.

It is not as simple as "don't use if you don't like it", everything is interlinked. Amazon will decide the food I will have access to soon. So should I grow my own food?

In India you can't do essential things like banking, tax payments without having a mobile phone with SMS. There is no single phone with decent call quality that is not a smartphone. Garmin/Tomtom never made it to India thanks to Google maps that wants to know everything about me. I need navigation and I am willing to pay good money for it.

"Don't use it if you don't like it" is being insensitive to say the least.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

2. If Mercedes wants to manufacture EV's at scale, where are they going to get all the batteries that they would need to do so. If they do not have their own gigafactory like Tesla, they are going to purchase them from the market. If they are going to purchase them from the market, it will be at the market cost and not at the manufacturing cost. (Remember also that they will not be the only manufacturer looking out for batteries and when the demand is more and supply is less, you are bound to pay significantly more)

Daimlers Battery Gigafactory

Deutsche Accumotive - a Diamler Company


They just don't make as much noise. The Mitsubishi eFuso trucks are one of their earliest EV success stories - Mitsubishi Fuso is 90% Daimler owned.

http://www.efuso.jp


In addition to pure electric, Mercedes have kept their hands in the fuel cell game.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Amartya

Perhaps Tesla is a 'cooler' EV brand. But I don't think that "therefore" the rest of the points you make follow ... at all. Steeroid's comment about Mercedes' technological and production prowess stands on its own merit, especially because the link he shared acknowledges the fact that Tesla has a first-mover advantage, and that Mercedes will have to put in the legwork (and money) to catch up.

I never said Tesla would the 'only' EV manufacturer, I meant they are best placed to manufacture them at scale and therefore at a cost which you and me can afford.

Throwing money at a problem is never a solution else there are many companies in this world who could say "Oh take my $20b and make me a success story like an iPhone". Do not take first advantage lightly. If one of the largest, wealthiest and most sophisticated software company, Microsoft, could not crack the mobile os, their own game, do you think it is going to be easy for any of the traditional car makers to no just compete but defeat Tesla at their own game?

Originally Posted by Amartya

There are three major automotive battery suppliers in the market at the moment. LG Chem and Samsung SDI, headquartered in Korea, and Panasonic, with it's headquarters in Japan . The Gigafactory (great branding by the way) in Nevada produces batteries in collaboration/partnership with Panasonic. Tesla, does not own the battery I.P., Panasonic does. In fact, Panasonic has been increasing production at their other battery plants, and even tooling some of their old TV/display panel factories to enable battery production [1]. If other car manufacturers wish to buy Panasonic batteries, they'll sell them batteries.

Again I did not say Tesla Gigafactory (Yes great branding indeed) is the only factory producing batteries but unlike others which supply batteries for all sorts of consumers like mobile phones, tablets, computer etc etc, the Gigafactory output is only for Tesla's consumption, if not fully atleast a lions share. The biggest bottleneck in producing electric cars is, first getting enough batteries and second getting those batteries at a cost which makes the car viable to be sold at a price which the masses can afford and yet be profitable.

Originally Posted by Amartya

Aside from that, the battery cells that Panasonic was selling to Tesla, were cylindrical cells. Though safer than prismatic cell batteries (like the ones used in cellphones), these cylindrical cells have obvious packaging (and somewhat related energy density handicaps). Panasonic itself, is starting to produce the newer prismatic cells ... in China [1]. Panasonic has also lost a few contracts to LG and Samsung recently. If I recall correctly, the I-Pace uses LG Chem batteries, but don't quote me on this.

I am not a battery expert but I am pretty sure a company wanting to be the biggest EV manufacturer is and I will leave it to their better judgement. Anything I say here would be mere speculation.

Originally Posted by Amartya

While Tesla might be a 'cool' brand, Mercedes has deep pockets and can subsidize the R&D, production and sale of their EVs with their dino-juice powered vehicles (Toyota followed a similar route with the Prius too). So if Mercedes wants to buy batteries, in bulk, they'll be able to do so.

Easier said than done. Mercedes's parent Diamler AG's operating income is less than 10% of their total revenue. Their net income is even lesser. So you are saying that they are going to subsidize and invest heavily in EV's at the same time with one subsidizing the other when what it actually means is none of the divisons will be making any profit. Dont forget huge R&D investment in dino juice powered vehicles as well. You see where this going? Prius is not an Apples to Apples comparison. It can't even do a couple of miles on battery power and is still IC engine powered and yet Toyota had to subsidize to sell it at a cost which is palatable to buyers.

Yes Mercedes (Or anyone else for that matter) can buy batteries in bulk. Can they make a car which is as capable as Tesla 3 at the same cost today. The answer to this question is that they could, they would have. How many years they will take to reach where Tesla is today? And do you think Tesla is going to sit still while they do that?

Again, throwing money at a problem does not solve the problem else there would be no Apple, no IBM, no Tesla.

Originally Posted by Amartya

Going out on a limb, are we? Consider some of the alternatives at least. For example, Google (Alphabet?) with it's Waymo subsidiary is ahead of every one else as far as self-driving/autonomous vehicles are concerned [2]. And all signs point to the fact that Waymo might license this technology (Partnering with FCA/Jaguar etc.). In such a world, do you think Tesla has a significant software advantage?

Please re-read your post and tell me it isnt mere speculation (Ahead of everyone - how? might licence? You are Mercedes/BMW/Volvo/Jaguar and are willing to bet your future in autonomous driving based on whether Waymo will licence it and that is assuming they are the first one's to crack it fully.)

Originally Posted by Amartya

Secondly, take a moment to go through the NTSB report [3] [4] on the Tesla that crashed into a divider. I've listed an excerpt here:

No system is fool proof but Tesla has what no one else has right now - 1.3 billion miles of real world data. Waymo is only operating in one small section of a city.

https://insideevs.com/the-tesla-self...al-world-data/

Originally Posted by Amartya

Tesla's AutoPilot system (terrible branding this time by the way, because it leads people into a false sense of safety) actually accelerated before an impact with the barrier without any driver input and the cruise control being active. I am sure you can come back and point me towards recalls/issues with other cars, but the point is, this is a software + sensor systems issue. Self-driving cars are a hard problem, but Tesla in this case might have succumbed to the Silicon Valley trope of moving fast and breaking things, with grave consequences.

Read above. We lost people in plane crashes too and to automation. It doesnt mean it is worthless. Eventually the technology has saved more lives than it took.

Originally Posted by Amartya

I wouldn't be too quick to hand the trophy to Tesla, and to dismiss Mercedes (and other manufacturers) just yet.

Of course and even I am not. But if you are going to ask me which company is best placed to take advantage of revolution (if it becomes one) in the EV space, there is no other company other than Tesla. Again, Tesla won't be the only one but perhaps the largest in its space. There is a Toyota for every Volkswagen and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Amartya

[1] Panasonic Batteries

[2]Waymo road testing lead

[3]NTSB Tesla Investigation

[4]NPR summary of NTSB Investigation

Thanks for the links.

The toughest competition to Tesla I think will come from China primarily because of their huge investments in building batteries. See a pattern here?

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Daimlers Battery Gigafactory

Deutsche Accumotive - a Diamler Company


They just don't make as much noise. The Mitsubishi eFuso trucks are one of their earliest EV success stories - Mitsubishi Fuso is 90% Daimler owned.

http://www.efuso.jp


In addition to pure electric, Mercedes have kept their hands in the fuel cell game.

We will talk when Mercedes is able to build as many EV's as Tesla does today and at the same cost. If they could, they would have. The biggest advantage Tesla also has is focus. They do not need to focus on diesel engines, petrol engines, fuel cell cars and typical board room interia that is so typical of incumbant companies.

Originally Posted by androdev

I quoted your "I hope Tesla pulls through" point and offered my view on Silicon Valley companies of their greed for profit powered by enormous capital.

Most of Elon's companies have been self funded initially. If investors see potential, they will invest and why not. Look at the ambition and achievement - Amazon from a book seller to perhaps one of the most powerful company on the planet (Our so called tech giants TCS/Infosys did not have the foresight to invest or research cloud), Apple going almost bankrupt to being the most value tech company in the world in two decades, companies like IBM, Google and Facebook. Give them credit where it is due - If you were to ask me if I want to build a company like Apple - I would say Yes everytime but I can't, else I would have)

Originally Posted by androdev

In my opinion it is dangerous to the society to have humongous corporations like Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, etc. and silicon valley is obsessed with producing such companies by sheer capital play. Don't kid yourself that it is due to innovation and not capital. With sufficient capital, everything can be reimagined - that is the secret sauce of these companies and innovation is limited to PR.

You are implying innovation follows capital but it is infact the other way around. Innovate and you will find someone to fund you with enough capital. Unfortunately this is how the world operates, whether you like it or not. Toyota is also humongous and so is Mercedes/BMW etc etc and yet I do not see you complain about them but you want to complain about Tesla.

Originally Posted by androdev

It is not as simple as "don't use if you don't like it", everything is interlinked. Amazon will decide the food I will have access to soon. So should I grow my own food?

Of course it is. You speak of them as being devil and yet you want to sleep with the devil and then complain. Its not as if there arent alternatives or workarounds.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

We will talk when Mercedes is able to build as many EV's as Tesla does today and at the same cost.

@extreme_torque

I do not own shares in Mercedes. Nor do I own shares in Tesla. I do have a related interest in the EV space, and therefore have the need to stay updated on the market. Hence my interest in these topics.

As such I have no interest in whether x wins or y does - my list of posts were statements of fact as they are today, beginning with a considered opinion on the future by a third party. It is a point of view - you don't have to agree, nor do you have to disagree violently.

I am in no competition with you, hence not interested in the "we will talk when" part. As of now we are both onlookers with no real skin in the game (I do, but in a space not related to the PV market) - the market will do the talking, somebody will win and its not going to make a difference to either of our lives. Therefore, please save your breath.

However, for the record the #1 Electric Car manufacturer in the world today is not Tesla, its Renault-Nissan. Tesla is Number 2, but is in very real danger of being overtaken by BAIC, BYD and a few other chinese manufacturers.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

As such I have no interest in whether x wins or y does - my list of posts were statements of fact as they are today, beginning with a considered opinion on the future by a third party. It is a point of view - you don't have to agree, nor do you have to disagree violently.

Did not mean to offend you but if did I apologise.

Originally Posted by Steeroid

I am in no competition with you, hence not interested in the "we will talk when" part. As of now we are both onlookers with no real skin in the game (I do, but in a space not related to the PV market) - the market will do the talking, somebody will win and its not going to make a difference to either of our lives. Therefore, please save your breath.

Saving my breath (and yours) was the reason I said "We will talk..."

Originally Posted by Steeroid

However, for the record the #1 Electric Car manufacturer in the world today is not Tesla, its Renault-Nissan. Tesla is Number 2, but is in very real danger of being overtaken by BAIC, BYD and a few other chinese manufacturers.

It a nascent market still and I would not read too much into it. You can either be a Samsung and sell most number of phone or you could be an Apple and sell 18% in unit sales and rake in 87% of the profit. Depends on which direction the company wants to take. In anycase not all battery vehicles are built equal else Maini Reva would be the pioneer not Tesla.

[srishiva]

Jaguar's iPace is favoured over Tesla's comparable SUV by people from what I have read. Why ? I am not sure Tesla would make the premium cars that are made by Germans or others. When you compare Porshe, Mercedes, BMW, Ferraris etc, is it just the powertrain ? Its more than that. Its the drive, the features and more. Will Tesla be able to do all this ? I am not sure.

Others have caught up with Tesla in drivetrain. They haven't been making much of noise about it though. Now will Tesla catch up with others when it comes to other things ? (including manufacturing)

[V12Doc]

Originally Posted by srishiva

Jaguar's iPace is favoured over Tesla's comparable SUV by people from what I have read. Why ? I am not sure Tesla would make the premium cars that are made by Germans or others. When you compare Porshe, Mercedes, BMW, Ferraris etc, is it just the powertrain ? Its more than that. Its the drive, the features and more. Will Tesla be able to do all this ? I am not sure.

Others have caught up with Tesla in drivetrain. They haven't been making much of noise about it though. Now will Tesla catch up with others when it comes to other things ? (including manufacturing)

I test drove a model x last week so I have no doubt iPace is more favored over model x. Model X seems like an assemblage. The car undoubtedly accelerates like no tomorrow and autopilot is a cool gimmick but when It comes to a total car it is not well built. The switches and gear lever are a straight lift from mercedes Benz. I hoped better than this from someone who is into groundbreaking technology to not lift something from a competitor. The switches dont seem like built for the car neither does the gear lever. The car interface is not intuitive to use while driving. The SUV itself is claustrophobic where they have spaces in the roof sonar head fits in. Everything is controlled from the front screen. Why do the rear passengers have to trouble the driver so set their own climate control.
The whole car is controlled from the screen and its gets confusing to guess where is what especially when you are driving. Ergonomics are not that good. Tesla in my opinion is more of a technology company than a car company unless it gets in some executives from the other car companies which can bring with them experience of car makinh . It is soon going to be a loser at it's own game. VW brands are ready with level 4 autonomy and EV. Jaguar is already in with their iPace. These bigger car companies have been in the trade for way too long perfecting their products along the way and possess the experience and trade secrets that give them an upper hand.

[petroguzzler]

Originally Posted by androdev

Elan Musk wants to project himself as saviour of the world, but he is actually selling guilt-free consumption to the West struggling to justify their unbridled consumption against the backdrop of growing environmental consciousness. So that Americans can buy a new Tesla every two years and pat themselves on the back for their contribution to the environment. Or travel in personal luxury cars in high speed transit tunnels without feeling guilty for not taking (or building) trains.

Buying an electric or any pseudo fancy hybrid car to save the planet ranks high amongst the myriad half-witted ideas that have caught the fancy of consumers in the West. Honestly, the only sustainable and environmentally conscious personal transportation method conceived to date remains good old walking (or cycling, provided consumers don't upgrade their bicycles to the latest fad every 10 days).

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by V12Doc

I test drove a model x last week so I have no doubt iPace is more favored over model x. Model X seems like an assemblage. The car undoubtedly accelerates like no tomorrow and autopilot is a cool gimmick but when It comes to a total car it is not well built. The switches and gear lever are a straight lift from mercedes Benz. I hoped better than this from someone who is into groundbreaking technology to not lift something from a competitor.

Do drive the iPace when you have a chance (and when Jaguar gives you a chance) and let us know if your doubt is confirmed.

Of all things different and unique about the Model X, you had to nitpick the control stalks? Come on man. Cut Tesla some slack. It's not the next best big thing after the invention of the wheel. Their focus is on technology and it is on display all over the car.

Anyways, I thought I'd better pen down my test experience of the Model S P100D in this thread.

Just an online request for a Test Drive. I got the call the next day for scheduling the appointment. Told them I'm not going to buy one any soon and just want to experience the car's performance. That didn't lower their enthusiasm or commitment a bit. They offered the top of the line S P100D for a proper test drive! 5 Star rated test drive experience.

Acceleration in the ludicrous mode is mindblowing. Tried the Auto Pilot. It was unreal to see the steering wheel move by itself But in Australia, it's restricted (or the system itself is restricted I supposed). It can't read traffic signals. It was able to steer, accelerate and brake in reference to the cars around and the lane markings.

I don't know much about saving the earth or Tesla's profit/loss. All I know as an enthusiast is, I'd definitely consider a Tesla if I ever am pushed to ditch petrol power. Of course, in the future, there'll be more exciting choices from the competition as well.

I'm also excited to know about the Jaguar iPace. But don't really look forward to experiencing it. Why? I asked the Jaguar dealer for a test drive of the XF because a friend couldn't get one in Melbourne. The Salesperson makes a couple of calls to his boss and said sorry if you aren't going to buy one from us then my boss wouldn't want me to offer the test drive. The XF isn't a sales rockstar in any way. But that's their call. But I detest such attitude.

I found Tesla's product experience approach to be more like Apple (Outside of India). Just walk into an Apple Store or Tesla Showroom and experience their products and services without feeling little because you can't afford one. I appreciate that.

So if you have a Tesla showroom in your city, try it out and see if the hype is worth it or not as an enthusiast.

I don't know much about saving the earth, profit/loss etc. so I'd leave that for the experts to discuss. My brother has cancelled his Model 3 booking in the states after the recent Consumer Reports concerns about quality. So I guess Tesla's quality is a cause for concern especially with the Model 3.

As an automobile enthusiast, I hope Tesla survives and continues to improve so that I get better products from them and the competition.

P.S: I don't know if Ford India has made a single $ of profit but I've owned 3 of their cars. I didn't really care about their profitability as long as the cars were good for me.

[V12Doc]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Do drive the iPace when you have a chance (and when Jaguar gives you a chance) and let us know if your doubt is confirmed.

Of all things different and unique about the Model X, you had to nitpick the control stalks? Come on man. Cut Tesla some slack. It's not the next best big thing after the invention of the wheel. Their focus is on technology and it is on display all over the car.

Anyways, I thought I'd better pen down my test experience of the Model S P100D in this thread.

Just an online request for a Test Drive. I got the call the next day for scheduling the appointment. Told them I'm not going to buy one any soon and just want to experience the car's performance. That didn't lower their enthusiasm or commitment a bit. They offered the top of the line S P100D for a proper test drive! 5 Star rated test drive experience.

Acceleration in the ludicrous mode is mindblowing. Tried the Auto Pilot. It was unreal to see the steering wheel move by itself But in Australia, it's restricted (or the system itself is restricted I supposed). It can't read traffic signals. It was able to steer, accelerate and brake in reference to the cars around and the lane markings.

I don't know much about saving the earth or Tesla's profit/loss. All I know as an enthusiast is, I'd definitely consider a Tesla if I ever am pushed to ditch petrol power. Of course, in the future, there'll be more exciting choices from the competition as well.

I'm also excited to know about the Jaguar iPace. But don't really look forward to experiencing it. Why? I asked the Jaguar dealer for a test drive of the XF because a friend couldn't get one in Melbourne. The Salesperson makes a couple of calls to his boss and said sorry if you aren't going to buy one from us then my boss wouldn't want me to offer the test drive. The XF isn't a sales rockstar in any way. But that's their call. But I detest such attitude.

I found Tesla's product experience approach to be more like Apple (Outside of India). Just walk into an Apple Store or Tesla Showroom and experience their products and services without feeling little because you can't afford one. I appreciate that.

So if you have a Tesla showroom in your city, try it out and see if the hype is worth it or not as an enthusiast.

I don't know much about saving the earth, profit/loss etc. so I'd leave that for the experts to discuss. My brother has cancelled his Model 3 booking in the states after the recent Consumer Reports concerns about quality. So I guess Tesla's quality is a cause for concern especially with the Model 3.

As an automobile enthusiast, I hope Tesla survives and continues to improve so that I get better products from them and the competition.

P.S: I don't know if Ford India has made a single $ of profit but I've owned 3 of their cars. I didn't really care about their profitability as long as the cars were good for me.

I am not nitpicking the stalks or the switches. I am nitpicking the overall experience in general. It is not a well built car compared to the old car companies. It is just a showcase of ground breaking technology. Only reason I would buy the tesla would be saving on fuel costs. I hoped for finding a reason better than that! I hope you get what I am saying. I love what Elon musk is doing and I follow him closely. His ideas and implementation is out of the world but he needs better executives and product people on his team to integrate his vision!

[myavu]

One side I admit that Tesla had did an Apple to Car industry, but other side with zero competition. Let us see how that is going to change in 2019/2020

Mercedes EQ Series and Jaguar I - Pace is going to be a game changer for sure.

Please watch the following video. They are talking about how EQ can be accommodated into existing IC Models production line on demand and about the battery production/tie-ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7ZjkoJgXWk

As per my belief Tesla's journey will not be that easy moving forward.

Tesla definitely have to watch for the built quality of these cars closely when pricing starts to fall in same brackets.

At least Jaguar and Mercedes are continuing with conventional car design/sophistication philosophy. Hope Audi will also join the group asap.

Interesting space to watch for.

Cheers!

Vinu

[volkman10]

Elon Musk fears sabotage at Tesla - names its probable enemies including obvious mention of top Auto companies!

As you know, there are a long list of organizations that want Tesla to die.

- Wall Street short-sellers, who have already lost billions of dollars and stand to lose a lot more

- oil & gas companies, the wealthiest industries in the world – they don’t love the idea of Tesla advancing the progress of solar power & electric cars

- multitude of big gas/diesel car company competitors. If they’re willing to cheat so much about emissions, maybe they’re willing to cheat in other ways?


Link

[sgiitk]

Musk claims sabotage by an employee

In a recent post Musk claims sabotage and data theft by an employee on a grand scale. Let is see it this a red herring or something is up.