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Old 28th June 2018, 18:23   #31
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

With all due respect to the venerable OEMs, how could two bidders be selected whose products (that they bid) aren't even running on the roads, let alone display success in the demanding consumer market!

I am reminded of the oft repeated story of the 'small car' design brief which the Indian Government called for back in the day, which Suzuki successfully bid for. Surely the reigning OEMs in India could not have delivered by retrofitting their models on sale back then!

Last edited by GeeTee TSI : 28th June 2018 at 18:29.
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Old 28th June 2018, 18:38   #32
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

I still believe this is a good experience for the decision makers and I am glad the government officials took it up rather than forcing it into the aam admi. Now they need to push Mahindra and Tata to fix the range issues for the next set of cars and improve the charging infrastrutcure. This is the only hope. As a nation, we are so helpless when it comes to oil. Any such initiatives should be encouraged and issues should be resolved and future iterations should be steps towards the larger goal.
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Old 28th June 2018, 19:37   #33
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

The range of 82 kms in real time condition is very low, considering the battery pack of 17KWhr which i feel is ok, if we consider the price at which they might have been sold.

I feel the consumption from motor in real life is very high.

Lets take an example of Nissan Leaf.

If we consider a overseas manufacturer electric car Nissan Leaf, the real life consumption with a 100+ HP motor can be roughly estimated around 0.15-0.18 KWhr/KM when driven at speeds of 100 km/hr on Europe motorways.( Estimated Data fetched from Bjorn Nyland Youtube Channel)

LINK


If we consider the battery pack capacity(on board power)of Nissan leaf to be 40Kwhr the ideal range of that car will be.
=Battery Pack/ Consumption
=40 kwhr/0.18 kwhr/km
=222 kms range

Coming to the EV's supplied to government with real life range of 80kms from an 17KWhr battery pack, the consumption is coming to 0.215 KWhr/Km, which is very high as compared to the consumption of the electric car(Nissan Leaf) mentioned above, over and above rated power of the motor of the EV's supplied to government should be around 40 HP when compared to 100+ HP of Nissan Leaf. So technically, with lower rate power of government EV's their consumption should also be low.

Considering one more example of an E20+.

The range specified by Mahindra for an E20+ with a 11KWHr batery pack and a 26Hp motor is 110kms, which translates to 0.1 Kwhr/km(0.08 Kwhr/Km specified by Mahindra on its website) consumption.

Considering the above fact if the consumption of the EV's supplied to the government comes down to 0.13 Kwhr/Km from 0.21 Kwhr/Km, they can achieve a range of

=17/0.13
=130 kms


Regards
Car's Paradise

Last edited by Car's Paradise : 28th June 2018 at 19:41.
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Old 28th June 2018, 22:24   #34
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

There are many government officer's routine could be just commute between office and home, either some arrangement could be made to give the car to people who would find it useful.

let's not forget, some of these cars do private duties too you can find them parked in market, outside expensive schools, in such duties 80Km seems too less.
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Old 29th June 2018, 00:54   #35
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
They could be allocated a couple of extra batteries, which they could leave charging at either end of their commute. This could be a workaround till Tata/ M&M develop batteries with better capacity.
Theoretically this may look as an option, but it's not practical with current battery technology as batteries are too heavy to handle without specialized setup. Also, handling the High Voltage systems (HV > 60V) calls for specialized training, and battery being a live system needs further higher level of training and precautions. Even a discharged battery has sufficient energy stored in it to result in serious accident if not handled properly.
Quote:
On another note altogether, what environmental impact does the production of a battery have? Is it eventually less than that of fossil fuels? And is the energy being used to recharge these batteries clean energy? Or is the electricity generated by burning fossil fuels in the first place?
Very pertinent questions. Infact I asked the very same questions (and some additional questions about toxic process of Lithium production and recycling of e-waste that will come out of EVs and connected vehicles) to Industry seniors during a conference, but no one gave straight reply and skirted my questions by pushing the responsibility on the governments and regulators.
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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
I am sure you are aware of how the fuel efficiency test is done by the manufacturers! Its no less than a joke. They put the vehicle on a test bed, simulate lab weather conditions of 20 C and unmount the Rear-view mirrors and all other possible aerodynamically inefficient components, a/c off, electricals with minimum consumption and lug the engine at said speed. They repeat the tests, until the predetermined fuel efficiency figure is reached. The test is repeated so many times until the "highest" mileage figure becomes statistically important and then its culminated.
I agree with most of your points but not with this test method that you mentioned. IIRC, aerodynamic drag, mechanical resistance, tire rolling resistance etc. is fed into the system to load the test bed for vehicle characteristics. But AC off condition is considered, which is definitely a joke, given the usage percentage of AC in Indian weather. Can you please share the standard/ source of your info on test method ?

Last edited by AutoNoob : 29th June 2018 at 00:56.
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Old 29th June 2018, 08:14   #36
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Tata Motors shares a very sensible & well-worded statement. Putting it here as is:

Quote:
There have been reports in some media regarding the unsatisfactory performance and mileage of the Tigor Electric Vehicles (EV) from Tata Motors procured by EESL for use by Government officials. Tata Motors would like to clarify on some of the facts that have been misrepresented and state the following points:

Based on our interaction with the customers and EESL, we have not heard range as a major concern.

The EESL tender of 10,000 cars has been an unprecedented initiative to accelerate the adoption of electrification. It was the first big step and the most effective way of generating real interest in the country for electric cars.

We believe that EESL, after intensive consultation of experts, was able to strike the optimum balance between meeting the daily running requirements of the end-users and most importantly, price accessibility, finalized the tender specifications.

Tata Motors has supplied the Tigor EVs to EESL in line with the specifications provided in the tender.

In India, 74% of the car buyers are still price conscious with a budget of INR 400K-800K. For prices above INR 1.5 million, the customers are limited. In such a scenario, the biggest barrier to adoption of electric cars is price of the car itself, and battery cost is the key variable determining the same. The specification chosen by EESL helped in keeping this aspect under control, while choosing a range, which was good enough for the city use.

Research findings shows that average running for a personal use in a day is around 50-60 kms. Therefore, with an overnight charging, a range of 130 km is more than adequate to meet the daily requirement. Also, with a fast charging network, the range concern could further be taken care of. A higher range of 250 kms and above would mean battery cost of more than INR 700k, which would take the electric cars price completely inaccessible for majority of the Indian customers at the prevailing Li-ion battery prices.

In future, as the battery prices keep coming down, it is an imperative to increase the range for bringing further mental comfort to the consumer. The technology to deliver higher performance and range is available, but the country has to take a conscious call to whether prioritize price accessibility in the next few years, or create high performing and extended range cars with, most probably, a lower demand due to higher price.

With our wide expertise and experience in providing smart mobility solutions, Tata Motors is technologically ready to create a range of electric cars, which meet the requirement of various use cases. We have introduced our first product, Tigor EV, which is custom-made to the EESL tender. In the coming years, we will introduce products with higher range and performance to bring greater excitement in the Indian market for electric cars. Apparently, the price of such cars will be on the higher side driven by battery capacity and cost.

Tata Motors is committed to the Government’s mission of e-mobility by 2030, and continue to work in a collaborative manner to facilitate faster adoption of electric vehicles and to build a sustainable future for India.

Last edited by GTO : 29th June 2018 at 08:29.
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Old 29th June 2018, 09:34   #37
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Dear Tata - Now that the Babudom has conspired to deny or stall the baby steps towards modernization and progress, can you please release any excess capacity into the retail market please? I am sure, there would be few others like me, who will love to buy a Tigor EV, even if it gives just a 80 km range today. - Thanks.

Last edited by roy_libran : 29th June 2018 at 09:40.
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Old 29th June 2018, 09:43   #38
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Babus acting like babus. Nothing else. First you put specs that suits your price requirements and then cry foul when you receive the specs you pay for.

One small point though. The price references almost SEEM like what they would be for a retail customer. Surely for orders like 10,000 cars the pricing would be DRAMATICALLY different? Of course I do not have any real perspective of retail vs. volume price for this product but I was just wondering.

Tata has come out with a very sensible statement. I am sure they will not want to sue the government on a sensitive initiative like this - I just hope better sense prevails and the government resolves this in line with agreed contracts and does not arm twist the manufacturers.
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Old 29th June 2018, 10:10   #39
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

EESL: We want electric cars.

Tata/Mahindra: Finalise the specs and price please.

EESL: Here it is.

Tata/Mahindra: Okay. Here are the cars.

EESL: Babus, here take these electric cars.

Babus: Thanks. But, I want more range. This won't do. I want Tesla range in 10 lakhs.

EESL: That's not the way it happens. And try adjust, don't forget the huge fuel bills your government pays.

Babus: Do you think we care? Media, we don't want these cars. They are good for nothing.

Media: Babus reject the cars. Cars have range problems.

TBHP: Lets ask some questions, the media can't.

Tata/Mahindra: Beta, itne paise mein itna hi milega. (You'll get what you pay for, son)
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Old 29th June 2018, 10:59   #40
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

This is nothing but a media hit job. Someone has coaxed/ paid the journo for printing this. Who it is we may not know - competing manufacturers/ officer associations..

The reality is that most government allotted vehicles for official use for officers won't do anywhere near 80 km a day. In small cities, you don't travel those distances. In big cities/ metros, you have official quarters fairly within the core city. And then you have drivers who spend most time waiting in the parking lots - so there is enough time available for charging/ recharging.

Some separate provision needs to be made for the small minority of government officers who may need to travel inter-city.
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Old 29th June 2018, 11:08   #41
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Having worked on govt contracts and having spent a few evenings with a few people of the cadre being talked about. I have a few points to state:
1) If madam won't go to the market in 'sarkaari gaadi', the range will be enough.
2) If the 'sarkaari gaadi' won't be used to drop kids to school and tution or to take kids to parties, the range will be enough.

Other than a few occassions when the officials actually have to go out of the town; a range of 80 kilometers per day is more than enough for their daily errands - given the condition that the official car is used for official purpose only! The best part of the story is that the Govt. hires them as the top talent who are brilliant problem solvers and they found the solution to the problem as rejecting the vehicles. The thing is, the vehicle can be charged overnight as well as the time the official is in his/her office (they don't go in and come out 10 times an hour); why can't the chauffeurs be trained to connect the vehicle to the charger while the official is in his/her seat and the vehicle is parked outside doing nothing? As it is said; reasons can be thousand, actions are few - here I see a classic example of the former.

That's it; let's till then look and enjoy how ruthlessly these people reject something brought out of the money of the taxpayer.

Last edited by VKumar : 29th June 2018 at 11:14.
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Old 29th June 2018, 11:17   #42
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Did the govt have range as one among the specifications ? Did the Babus know what was asked for ?

Tata's response about how common people cannot buy etc is useless banter. They should have been specific about what was asked and if they have delivered. If they think govt is asking for mountain for peanuts, they should say so.

its difficult for a new e-car company to come into existence in India (unlike Ather in scooters). The current manufacturers should try to bring out some bit costlier but practical cars into the market. Its the right time. Innovation needs risk taking and all they are doing is using existing chassis and shoehorning batteries and motors into it.
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Old 29th June 2018, 11:25   #43
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Tata Motors shares a very sensible & well-worded statement. Putting it here as is:

A higher range of 250 kms and above would mean battery cost of more than INR 700k, which would take the electric cars price completely inaccessible for majority of the Indian customers at the prevailing Li-ion battery prices.

but the country has to take a conscious call to whether prioritize price accessibility in the next few years, or create high performing and extended range cars with, most probably, a lower demand due to higher price.
Quote:
"Launching an electric vehicle is easy, but where would I charge the batteries while going long distances? Setting up such infrastructure has to happen.

"This is something where there should be a push by the Centre," Audi India head Rahil Ansari during Q5 launch

"Let's assume we have launched an EV in 2020. And, in 2021, there will be a policy that opposes the car we launched a year back. Then, there will be a problem," said Ansari
Let's take a step back and look at the big picture here.
The lack of policy is indeed creating uncertainty in the industry and also among consumers.

Even though a policy change happens overnight, the development of vehicles takes years. The industry heads are worried at the direction we as a country is heading especially after the bulldozing 100% EV's by 2030 statements and walking back on the same. Investments from various automakers like Tesla, Changan Automotive and Beiqi Foton have been put on ice indefinitely.
Not to mention the Chinese government-backed investments in securing metals and minerals required for battery making. Which are taking over mining corporations in South America, huge investments in Congo and setting up of gigawatt factories around the world.

From a consumer perspective, cars are the second most expensive things we buy. To invest such a huge sum in an ever-evolving technological marvel which has a couple of bottle necks will take some convincing. And if the subsidies are direct tax based the government can even increase the tax base.

Let's not forget the advantages an EV policy will bring to India. Uninterrupted electrification in every corner of the country, less reliance on imported oil, push towards cleaner energy and shocking new energy to our economy.
It's time to take a decision, whether to be on the forefront of the EV industry or follow China and others.

Last edited by johannskaria : 29th June 2018 at 11:27.
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Old 29th June 2018, 12:23   #44
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

I think the government should give the officials two options:


1. Take the car given to them with the range you get today.
2. Use public transportation if you are not happy with the range.


Then we'll see how genuine their real concern is. I guess this is kind of blocking their avenues for forging petrol bills, going on personal/joy trips etc. So, we should just ignore their cries and move on. If anyone that deserve sympathy, it's certainly not the government officials.


I will happily buy one if they sell the Tigor EV in the market. This will make my rooftop solar power plant all the more useful.

Last edited by prakash_ajp : 29th June 2018 at 12:26. Reason: add some more
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Old 29th June 2018, 12:34   #45
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
...Can you please share the standard/ source of your info on test method ?
From the horse's mouth, someone who has been developing and testing exhaust systems for a big/one of the biggest diesel engine manufacturer in Europe.

Most of the points discussed here seems to be blaming the Govt. officials for their lack of sensitivity. I am sure, there are some black sheeps who are behind monetary benefits but there are a few who might really be facing issues. Even this has been discussed before. My question is,

1. Did the officer(s) who were supposed to get these vehicles, consulted?
2. Was their usage profile analysed?
3. Did their departments had any say in the final budget of the vehicle being purchased?

What I feel being omitted here is the total disconnect between the end-user and the procurement/purchase department. Let us not blame the officials totally before we understand their operational constraints.

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 29th June 2018 at 12:40.
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