Team-BHP > Electric Cars


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st January 2020, 19:43   #361
Senior - BHPian
 
discoverwild's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Coimbatore
Posts: 1,021
Thanked: 2,344 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
1. It is no cynicism if you have had a prior experience of owning and being disappointed with them. It becomes realism. I bought the Petrol Indica and went thru grief.


Such a range may be difficult in Nexon. It may still serve as a good urban vehicle, but there may be other more suitable (smaller) options with 100-150km range for that purpose at cheaper price.

In cities, small is beautiful. Nexon isn't exactly small. It is an ideal highway vehicle.
Please don't compare apples with oranges (Old Indica Vs Nexon EV). You have taken the step of booking a Nexon EV even without looking at it. That's a positive. So remain so.

EVs of today are not meant for highway touring irrespective of which manufacturer it is. The tech is limited and there's only so much that one can do at a fair price. A Nexon is not much bigger than the Vista I drive or the Altroz, except for the height.

Driving an EV, as many have pointed out, will need a change in habit from ICE cars. Allow yourself the time and you will figure out how to extract the most out of it. Maybe over time, you will be able to go long distance too.

Cheers!
discoverwild is offline   (13) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 20:32   #362
Senior - BHPian
 
wheelguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: City of Destiny
Posts: 1,363
Thanked: 6,654 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Cynicism or not here's some figures for rough quantitative comparison:
  • Hyundai Kona's claimed range is 452 km.
    • Actual range, case 1, 288 km which is ~63% of claimed range.
    • Actual range, case 2, 258 km which is ~57% of claimed range.
  • Tata Nexon's claimed range is 312 km.
    • At ~63% of claimed range, actual range would be 198 km.
    • At ~57% of claimed range, actual range would be 178 km.
* For the given price difference between both the cars, Nexon EV is offering as much as Kona EV. Those who really need that extra range will go for Kona, those who doesn't need that extra range will go for Nexon EV. There are many multi-car households (Number of single-car vs multi-car households on Team-BHP) wherein many of the non-primary cars' daily running never exceeded 250km, they can buy this car instead of other expensive cars whose full range anyhow will never be put to use. And also one should note that Kona, and ZS EV even with that extra range are not yet suitable for frequent highway mile munchers.

* Different driving patterns deliver different ranges, that renders comparison difficult, we need standardized driving conditions to make unbiased comparison, ARAI certification is our standard. Though it is not as stringent as other international driving cycles, ARAI tests all the EVs in exactly same conditions, be it Nexon, or Kona, or ZS, it is same for all!

Reference, from Team-BHP's official Kona review:
Quote:
Range

As electric vehicles become more and more popular, manufacturers are soon going to be advertising their prowess in "km" figures, rather than "km/l".

The ARAI-approved range for the 39.2 kWh Kona is 452 km. Being the official figure, this is the range that is being touted in all marketing material, as well as most reviews. However, letís be clear that this is very far from the realistic range you can expect the Kona to return. For the ARAI test, the car is run at a constant speed of 40-45 km/h on a flat road and there is no wind resistance. Unrealistic.

In real-world conditions, international reviews as well as a few Indian owners have reported figures ranging between 250-350 km.

In our road-test, we managed to get:
ē 288 km on a city + highway trip (223 km traveled + 54 km range remaining + 10 km calculated adjustment for starting at 98%).

ē 258 km in Mumbai city traffic + 3 hrs of AC when parked (164 km traveled + 94 km range remaining)

Mind you, in neither of these cases were we trying to prolong the range in any way. In fact, we were pushing the car a lot harder than most people would in normal driving.
Consistently getting above 250 km of range is excellent for an EV in today's times.

Simply put, if youíre using the Kona as a purely city car, range should not be a concern whatsoever. However, if you regularly approach 250 km/day, managing range will require some planning.
wheelguy is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 21:03   #363
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Faridabad
Posts: 188
Thanked: 312 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (7)
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

I love Indian car makers. Had Manza for 1.25L KMS, Xuv for 95k, and just picked my hexa 4x4 to replace my Xuv. Nexon EV could be the replacement for my s cross that has done 80k. Superb superb product and affordable Ticks all the boxes for a city car. Esp and TC should have been there. I didn't buy hexa XTA because of lack of safety features. So, that's bit of a downer.
5kmiles is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 21:42   #364
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 248
Thanked: 377 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
A Nexon is not much bigger than the Vista I drive or the Altroz, except for the height.
Nexon in fact is the best offering in EV space if they can stick to a price of 15L. And yes, it isn't too big compared to E-Verito, Tigor and upcoming Altroz EV.

But, in city I suspect you'd fine eKUV or e-WagonR easier to drive.

In city range is not a big issue. My E2O only has realistic range in city (with AC) of about 80-100km though rated for 120Km. But, in 5years, not even once have I had the problem of range. I have travelled maximum 80km in a day, and it still had 15% left.

So, I feel as urban vehicles there may be other EVs that may fit the bill.

But, if someone is looking at weekend farmhouse trips that are about 70km away from the city, without having charging facility there, Nexon fits the bill.

One more small disadvantage with Nexon - 15Amp AC charging limitation. I feel they could have easily provided 30amp thus being able to charge the car in under 5hrs as versus 8-9hrs now. DC fast chargers won't be as common as 7Kw AC chargers.

And an hour of that can put in effectively about 25% additional range, i.e. about 50km, even without fast charger. Now you need 1hr for just 25km addition to range.

Having said that, no denying NexonEV is a fantastic offering, especially for the price point. Mahindra is struggling to provide half the range on an old platform like Verito at comparable price point...

Mahindra will lose out big, if they don't do something fast with their electric plans.

XUV300 just got 5star NCAP rating, so ideally they should bring in XUV300 with similar or better range than Nexon at comparable price point to keep things ticking.

Foreign automakers with their CKDs can not match the price points the Indian manufacturers can.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 22nd January 2020 at 10:08. Reason: Typo.
hkollar is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 22:17   #365
Distinguished - BHPian
 
condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Speed-brkr City
Posts: 12,586
Thanked: 7,749 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
One more small disadvantage with Nexon - 15Amp AC charging limitation. I feel they could have easily provided 30amp thus being able to charge the car in under 5hrs as versus 8-9hrs now.
I have not seen 30A supply points. 15A is common, and this is practical. What use would a 30A rated charger be, if we are not going to get these points ? The 15A charging would be helpful outside one's regular charging point. While offices are providing charging points, how many will take the effort to give a 30A point ?
condor is offline   (8) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 22:29   #366
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 248
Thanked: 377 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
I have not seen 30A supply points. 15A is common, and this is practical. What use would a 30A rated charger be, if we are not going to get these points ? The 15A charging would be helpful outside one's regular charging point. While offices are providing charging points, how many will take the effort to give a 30A point ?
It is the older Bharat AC-001 standard, that had 3.3KW. It had the older IEC60309 plug.

But, rest of world has moved towards 7.4Kw for built chargers. IEC Type 2 connector or J1772 (used in US) plug based cars normally have 7.4Kw charging built in.

Also, Check the EV guidelines Oct 2019 by power ministry for India.

https://powermin.nic.in/sites/defaul..._Standards.pdf

Section 3 - PCI (Public Charging Infrastructure) requirements says Type-2 AC will be 22Kw, 3phase supply. i.e. 7.4Kw x 3.

The newer charging stations that will come up will have higher capacity than 3.3Kw and even 3 phase.

Thus when building a new car that should last at least a decade, would have made sense to have higher current charging, to have a double the charging speed.
hkollar is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 22:32   #367
Distinguished - BHPian
 
condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Speed-brkr City
Posts: 12,586
Thanked: 7,749 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
The newer charging stations that will come up will have higher capacity than 3.3Kw and even 3 phase.
Public charging stations will have and must have higher capacity charging. Cant be waiting at such places for charge to trickle into the battery. This 15A charging option would be more for emergency - office, en-route, a place where you are visiting.
condor is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 22:45   #368
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 750
Thanked: 1,619 Times
Default

Was looking at a few reviews on YouTube and immediately you realize that this car definitely needs traction control. I expected it to be there but given the amount of wheel spins at speeds close to 60-80kmph, this car will definitely prove to be fatal in the hands of folks who are new to electric cars (including most of us) and aren't careful enough.
Wonder how TATA missed this feature or am i missing something?
abhi7013 is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 23:28   #369
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 159
Thanked: 480 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

in the reviews, something which stood was a statement "1% reduced per 1km", that is quite concerning. It would mean only 100ish range, the car speed is throttled to 120km, not sure why such a loss of range happened during their reviews.
I am just hoping that a 250km range is possible with sedate driving of 80kmph on highways.
DarthVeda is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 08:07   #370
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 501
Thanked: 850 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Let's all be realistic with the Range expectation.

If we look at the non Tesla, reasonably priced competition, here is what the competition offered in physically larger cars.

The 2nd generation 2018 Nissan Leaf is a car that was built from the ground up to be an electric car back in 2010 and now in its 2nd generation almost a decade later. The Leaf is rated to do 243 km (EPA) or 270km (WLTP) range from its 40kWh battery. This battery pack is 33% larger than the Nexon EV. These range numbers equate to ~6km/kWh for EPA and ~6.75km/kWh WLTP efficiency.

I don't have a conversion factor for how EPA or WLTP compares with ARAI so let's look closer home, and look at the MG ZS EV and the Hyundai Kona EV.

MG ZS EV has a 44.5 kWh battery and is rated for 340 km by ARAI. This comes to ~7.7 km/kWh.

Hyundai Kona EV has a 39.2 kWh battery and is rated for km by ARAI. This comes to ~11.5 km/kWh.

TATA Nexon EV has a 30 kWh battery and is rated for 312 km by ARAI. This comes to ~10.4 km/kWh. 10% behind on range compared to the MG which has a 50% larger battery.

The Hyundai Kona just happens to be one of the most Efficient EVs ever built, even when comparing with Teslas. By comparison, the Nexon, a car which will cost 30-40% less in all probability and is built on a derivative of a 20yr ICE platform, is just 10% behind on efficiency. That, in my books, is doing really well for itself.

Compared to the Chinese and given their vast experience manufacturing EVs, the Nexon, in its very first generation, is miles ahead in terms of efficiency.

This seems to be the first iteration of Tata Ziptron cars and it does have a lot going for it. The 'Highway usable' EVs still have a long way to go and a physically larger + lightweight car is inherently better suited to be a better EV.

Since I have just recently bought my first car (a Diesel) What I am more interested in is what Tata does with the Altroz-based-Creta-Sized-SUV segment EV. The larger size and better battery densities a few years down the line should allow for even 55-60 kWh battery packs. Coupled with the lightweight platform, the efficiencies should not be affected too much and we could be looking at 600km+ in rated ARAI Range. Given the larger difference in GST for ICE cars in this segment (5% for EVs, 47% for SUVs), that should really be game on for the EVs with ICE cars hiding for cover. Amen to that.

Cheers!

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 22nd January 2020 at 10:06. Reason: Typo. conversation factor -> conversion factor
antz.bin is offline   (10) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 10:03   #371
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 58,289
Thanked: 169,480 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by gautam109 View Post
  1. No ESP or traction control - important given EV torque characteristics
  2. Regen-braking level, not driver-adjustable (I believe the Hexa has this)
  3. Hill Start lets the car roll back by a foot or so before kicking in!!
  4. In sports mode, take your foot off the accel & there's a second or so of lag before it stops accelerating!!

Honestly, such misses/omissions are disappointing, especially given the verve with which Tata is re-inventing themselves, with a slew of exciting product launches.
The first generation of EVs by any manufacturer will be half-baked because it is a completely new power-train. It requires specialised skills & knowledge that cannot be gained overnight. I would never buy the 1st-gen EV from any manufacturer, especially Mahindra & Tata. They can't even roll out brand new petrol / diesel cars without niggles; their EVs are going to be full of them.
GTO is offline   (11) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 13:31   #372
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Pune
Posts: 62
Thanked: 579 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVeda View Post
I am just hoping that a 250km range is possible with sedate driving of 80kmph on highways.
I think it will be possible.
Minute you touch the brakes in the EV, you are killing the mileage.

Generally all the media drives are done quite aggressively, they brake a "lot". In normal driving no one is going to spin their wheels everytime they try to accelerate.

On a highway with good visibility, generally you can drive without ever touching the brakes. One should coast as much as possible and then use regen to slow down. A good regen system will give back atleast 30-40% of the kinetic energy, and if one does not go nuts with the accelerator, eking out mileage is possible.

That is the reason, any EV which is meant to go on highway must come with an option to turn off/on regenerative braking on demand.
mohanphadnis is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 14:09   #373
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: bangalore
Posts: 58
Thanked: 151 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohanphadnis View Post

That is the reason, any EV which is meant to go on highway must come with an option to turn off/on regenerative braking on demand.
Exactly. I also thought the same way. I always thought there must be a button like cruise control off or release, now a REGEN OFF/ON on steering wheel and may be + or + button for regen increase and decrease.

Other things I am looking for technology to mature would be supercap to cushion frequent charge and discharges due to regen and acceleration. This will act as a buffer between generator and lithium battery and will help battery life.

Also, I imagined, (being an engineer myself, technically possible), while rapid breaking or medium breaking, if AC is turned on, why not run the AC compressor heavily or have a secondary AC compressor, i.e use the kinetic energy to run the ac compressor and store compressed liquid in a larger tank. This will also increase range with AC turned on.


Almost 12 years ago, we were contemplating on starting a company in Atlanta. The idea was: Electricity was very cheap between 1:30AM night to around 4:30 AM in the morning. Use electricity at that time and make water into ice. This ice will be used as supplementary coolant for air conditioners during noon time when the sun is peak. Electricity cost in the afternoon was expensive. We planned to implement this in malls in down towns in many states where variable electricity rates are present and had a good ROI.

Battery capacity is limited 20KW-h or 25 or 40 or even Tesla with 60. Try and see what all can be done to use it efficiently. Regen need not always to back to battery. It could go to AC and may be bigger AC coolant tank; concepts like this can increase available range..

Last edited by pogo0120 : 22nd January 2020 at 14:19.
pogo0120 is offline   (8) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 14:25   #374
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 159
Thanked: 480 Times
Default re: Tata builds a Nexon EV. EDIT: Launched at ₹13.99 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohanphadnis View Post
On a highway with good visibility, generally you can drive without ever touching the brakes. One should coast as much as possible and then use regen to slow down. A good regen system will give back atleast 30-40% of the kinetic energy, and if one does not go nuts with the accelerator, eking out mileage is possible.

That is the reason, any EV which is meant to go on highway must come with an option to turn off/on regenerative braking on demand.
and that is missing on the Nexon, so if I lift my foot off pedal, it starts braking when i want it to coast!
DarthVeda is offline  
Old 22nd January 2020, 15:23   #375
BHPian
 
shaheenazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dehradun
Posts: 135
Thanked: 129 Times
Default

The Nexon EV's pickup seems to be immense. Watch the following video at 17:23 and notice how the speedometer's needle shoots upto 60 kmph in no time! Faisal Khan is mostly raving about the pickup, wheel spin and performance of the car in the video. He seems mighty impressed and so am I !



Quote:
Originally Posted by XRoader_001 View Post
Tata motors has pointed out that customers are willing to pay 25% more on an Ev versus ICE cars.Tata seems to have a mind towards pricing the Evs they would offer. The Tata Ev team pointed 25% more price above the Nexon Amt thatís really smart of Tata Motors.
If it is so, then I have a feeling that the Nexon EV will be priced around 12-13 lacs of rupees for the base variant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCents View Post
Here is link to the YouTube Video for those who don't want to go to Twitter.
This one is really fast.

This video does not demonstrate how quick Nexon is.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 22nd January 2020 at 18:10. Reason: Merged back to back posts.
shaheenazk is offline   (1) Thanks
Closed Thread

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks