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Old 19th September 2021, 15:40   #136
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Most car owners in India own only one car. So,EVs will become mainstream when they offer 700 Km + range and the price difference is not too much. Charging situation depends on the EV car numbers. Charging stations cannot drastically increase when EV numbers are too low. When EV numbers reach a critical mass, it should not be a big deal to convert many of the highway petrol stations into charging points. In cities most residential places can be retrofitted with overnight chargers at parking so it should not be a big deal.
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Old 20th September 2021, 18:37   #137
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSDey View Post
Bought the e2o in June 2017; pioneered the thing, really. or as some would say, became mr mahindar's guinea pig.

Cannot spend any more on this clunker. I bought it because I was feeling eco-friendly in 2017. And it did save a lot of money. But the car was expensive to begin with, and now it is just a waste of money.

I will wait 5 years for a proper EV - a) 1000 km range b) quick charging option c) battery replacement/backup option d) portable charging from any petrol pump or roadside Dhabi and most important, e) realistic pricing.

....

Why do you do this to your country, sir?
Did they provide you a quote for battery replacement?
This is the quote I received for my E2O battery replacement last month. Mine is 2014 E2O and the car is still running, but the lockdowns and keeping the car at 0% charge for few months has damaged a few cells. I still get around 60+ KM to a single charge. Not sure how they can justify the cost of Rs 4.2L for a 10KWh battery pack. At this rate, my Nexon EV battery should cost 12.8L.

Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head-save_20210919_205511.jpg

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Originally Posted by MrSDey View Post
I will wait 5 years for a proper EV - a) 1000 km range b) quick charging option c) battery replacement/backup option d) portable charging from any petrol pump or roadside Dhabi and most important, e) realistic pricing.
I don't think you would need a 1000KM range vehicle. I've been using Nexon EV for more than 1 year and with my usage, I've realised that 350-400KM is the ideal range you would require. I cant drive more than 400KMs without taking a break. If I could charge up the vehicle in 30-40 mins while I take a break, I would be good to travel another 400KMs and by then I will have to halt over night.
The max I have ever driven an ICE car in a single day is 1000KM Mumbai-Bangalore. Even during that trip, I took 3-4 10+ Mins break and 2 long breaks almost an hour each for lunch and dinner. An EV with 400KM range can do the same trip in exact same timing if I charge the vehicle during my lunch and dinner breaks.

Last edited by Holyghost : 20th September 2021 at 18:50.
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Old 20th September 2021, 19:32   #138
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

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Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
Did they provide you a quote for battery replacement?
This is the quote I received for my E2O battery replacement last month. Mine is 2014 E2O and the car is still running, but the lockdowns and keeping the car at 0% charge for few months has damaged a few cells. I still get around 60+ KM to a single charge. Not sure how they can justify the cost of Rs 4.2L for a 10KWh battery pack. At this rate, my Nexon EV battery should cost 12.8L.
This is exactly what happened to me. The friend I gave the car to was using it until February, and regularly charging it. Then the reverse gear stopped working, and he stopped using/charging it.

I spent 15k on the reverse gear and assorted things - in an outside garage, no more than 5k for the same work if they could do it.

Now they say the IEMS is gone but I suspect it is, like yours, the battery. I am not gonna spend 4 lakh+ on a battery. The car is giving me some 60-70km, and I will use it for as long as it lasts; then throw it away. I believe it has saved me some 6-7 lakh in the 2.5 years I drove it daily. I am satisfied.

My next EV I am planning is Tata Altroz or Kia Niro/SOoul/EV 6 -if these latter come to the market before the e20 dies. I hear Tata will offer an Altroz type battery to the Nexon lineup, which will give Nexon just that added range- 400 kms - for me to be able to use it for my benchmark - that is, an EV that can take me to Goa in a day. I can drive to Hubli, have lunch, charge the car somewhere using a hooked up extension cord with a 5amp-15amp converter, and be able to get to Goa for less than 500/-. That would be my personal driving goal for an EV.

Questions:

1. How is the Nexon?

2. Any idea if I buy a Nexon now, can I add the 30.2 kWh battery to it latter on? Plan to visit Tata showroom tomorrow to figure out whether this is possible. Then I can buy the Nexon now without waiting for Altroz.

3. Any update on the Kia? Plan to visit them as well tomorrow, both showrooms are nearby on Airport road.

4. Lastly, has anyone self-made such an extension cord? It needs a 5amp-15amp converter, but just a mechanical conversion will not work.
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Old 21st September 2021, 00:35   #139
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taruns_Hah View Post
Currently, the government earns lacs of crores annually by taxing fossil fuels.

So the point is, as the use of EVs becomes more mainstream, do we seriously expect the government to let go of their biggest revenue stream?
The government will also save a lot of money by not importing as much crude oil. That’s why there is such an aggressive push for electrification of railways in last decade.

Quote:
In my opinion, at that stage there will be a mechanism (michrochip or something else) which will differentiate the electricity being used to charge EVs and they will be heavily taxed for the same. The government would most likely want to stay revenue neutral between EVs and current tech.
You can’t actually do that using a microchip. The government can, however, force people to use a “sub meter” for charging EV. This concept is already present in Maharashtra IIRC . The electricity consumption from this sub meter will be charged at different slab than household rate (which will include the said taxes which you theorise)

Quote:
This would most likely have the effect that the low (C-H-E-A-P) running costs of approximately Rs. 1 which all of us are salivating about, will most likely disappear.
Yes, at some point, governments will also pull the plug (pun intended ) on subsidy and registration fee waivers. I don’t think it will continue beyond 2030 at best, 2025 at worst.

Government will not do it right away because the country is still in the grassroots phase of the S curve of adopting EVs. It will become increasingly difficult in future emission controls, if a company keeps using non hybrids. Thus companies will be forced to go EV or hybrid. At that time when the people and companies don’t have options, it’s then when plug is pulled.

Also note that present subsidies are in place to incentivise production and uptake of EVs because they are costlier than comparable cars. Nexon EV is about 2.5L higher than Nexon petrol amt with same feature set. Once this gap is closed, there is no need as it will be apparent that EVs are cheaper. This will come through improved economies of scale in battery production and the decrease in price of batteries themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSDey View Post
Questions:

2. Any idea if I buy a Nexon now, can I add the 30.2 kWh battery to it latter on? Plan to visit Tata showroom tomorrow to figure out whether this is possible. Then I can buy the Nexon now without waiting for Altroz.
I’m not sure what you mean, but Nexon EV already has 30kWh battery. I think you meant the rumoured “long range battery” which is theorised to make debut on altroz. The answer to that can only come from Tata, but my personal takeaway from the tigor affair is, that Tata cannot just put powertrain from one car in another unless they share platforms.

The likely battery size will be 45-50kWh as discussed by fellow BHPians in the rumour thread. (Scoop! Tata Altroz EV to get larger battery, 40% more range) That will be heavier than current one and also physically larger. Thus, I don’t think Tata will able to put the 50kWh pack in Nexon at a future date unless they have designed Nexon EV with that in mind.

Quote:
3. Any update on the Kia? Plan to visit them as well tomorrow, both showrooms are nearby on Airport road.
None so far. They have launched their EV6 and plans on a Niro EV facelift but none are planned to land in India yet. Niro is also kind of Tesla Model 3 category in pricing (~$40K), so it will be very costly if imported, and as I said, no plans to make it here.

Quote:
4. Lastly, has anyone self-made such an extension cord? It needs a 5amp-15amp converter, but just a mechanical conversion will not work.
You cannot do that. 15A uses completely different gauge of wiring than 5A so you’ll be taking huge risks even if you could do that. It’s a physical (as in, physics) limitation.

The max power you can draw from 5A socket is 1200W (5A*240V = 1.2kW) but the Nexon EV charges at 3.2kW IIRC. The charger will simply refuse to work even if someone could go against physics and invent such a contraption (and mind you, they’ll be risking burning down the 5A wiring if 15A flows through it)

You absolutely need a separate 15A wiring. There is no such thing as a 5Ato15A converter.

A transformer can step down voltage, which essentially does increase current, but output power remains same as input power — so now it will output 15A but at 80V — which again, the charger will refuse to work at because the voltage is too low and total power is till 1200W (or in reality, a bit lesser than that due to losses)

Last edited by Shresth_EV : 21st September 2021 at 00:46.
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Old 21st September 2021, 00:54   #140
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSDey View Post
Any idea if I buy a Nexon now, can I add the 30.2 kWh battery to it latter on? Plan to visit Tata showroom tomorrow to figure out whether this is possible. Then I can buy the Nexon now without waiting for Altroz
If you want to know about battery swapping, here is the YouTube video of the team at Plugin India talking to Anand Kulkarni on this topic



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shresth_EV View Post
There is no such thing as a 5Ato15A converter.
I think the query was regarding this kind of "jugaad" converter.

https://www.amazon.in/dp/B07GBN1BT1/

These things should be made illegal. I have seen them being used and they get dangerously hot.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:01   #141
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

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Originally Posted by NG_EV View Post
I think the query was regarding this kind of "jugaad" converter.

https://www.amazon.in/dp/B07GBN1BT1/

These things should be made illegal. I have seen them being used and they get dangerously hot.
Iím pretty sure itís a big fire hazard. The issue with converter is that it can still only supply a max of 1200W.

Thatís not going to cut for charging an EV. The charging wonít start. Iíve seen the YT vids of Nexon EV charger being finicky with improperly grounded connections.

From what limited details are available on the Amazon page, I couldnít find a single mention of whatís the input and output voltages. Thus my assumption of the power limit.
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Old 21st September 2021, 23:39   #142
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSDey View Post

1. How is the Nexon?

2. Any idea if I buy a Nexon now, can I add the 30.2 kWh battery to it latter on? Plan to visit Tata showroom tomorrow to figure out whether this is possible. Then I can buy the Nexon now without waiting for Altroz.

3. Any update on the Kia? Plan to visit them as well tomorrow, both showrooms are nearby on Airport road.

4. Lastly, has anyone self-made such an extension cord? It needs a 5amp-15amp converter, but just a mechanical conversion will not work.
1. Nexon EV is just like any other 1st generation Tata product. There are niggles and most of them are being fixed while newer ones are popping up. If you are looking at Nexon EV as your only vehicle, I wouldn't recommend buying one now. If you have a backup vehicle for long trips and emergencies, go ahead and buy the Nexon EV. You wont regret the decision even with those one off niggles.

2. Officially from Tata, No. Never. But there will be third party/after market kits which you can use to add your battery capacity, but considering the 8 years warranty on battery, it wouldn't be wise to mess around untill your warranty is over.

4. Do not use 5A to 15A converter with Nexon OEM charger. OEM Charger pulls a steady 12A+ current for hours which can burn the 5A internal wiring. Ideally the fuse/MCB should trip the moment you start charging, but if it doesn't, you are looking at a fire hazard. If you really want to use 5A socket with a converter, please also buy an after market 1KW charger so that it will not pull more than 5A through that socket. Most of these after market chargers have switchable current so that you can switch between 3KW, 2KW, 1KW charging power.
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Old 24th October 2021, 01:10   #143
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

The problem with EVs is to get a real time long range (500+ kms), we need bigger batteries. That means more weight to the vehicle and more cost.

In day today life, most people travel 30 kms on an average. Which means an EV having just 100-150 kms is sufficient for daily city commutes for 90% of the people. It would cost less and will also charge 100% much faster.

But the problem comes during those occasional outstation trip. When the number of kms covered is much more than daily city commutes and the EV with 150 kms range will not work at all.

So what can be the solution to this problem?? Here are the current options:

1. Increase budget to get that costly EV which has real world range of 500+ kms. Expense of around ₹25 lakhs.
2. Get a low range EV for City commutes (cost less than ₹10 lakhs) and rent Zoomcar/Revv for Outstation Trips.
3. Wait for the day when Car Companies can bring a car which can run on both electricity and petrol/diesel independently. Meaning it would have a small battery which will have a range of 50-100 kms which can be charged using an external charger. And once the battery runs out of juice, the car will automatically switch to petrol/diesel engine for the rest of the journey. The best car for daily city commutes on batteries and those occasional long drives on petrol/diesels.

I am not sure how difficult it is to make a car mentioned in point no 3. But in the current scenario point no 2 looks the best way to enjoy both the worlds.
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Old 21st December 2021, 14:36   #144
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

The US government's energy department has calculated that light battery electric vehicles cost 40% less to maintain than internal combustion engine vehicles.

Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head-fotw1190.png

link to article
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Old 1st January 2022, 09:05   #145
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

I am no expert by all means but from what little I understand here are my thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by souvikjana83 View Post
1. Increase budget to get that costly EV which has real world range of 500+ kms. Expense of around ₹25 lakhs.
EVs costing 25 lakhs in the current Indian market still only offer around 250-280km range only. Having 500km range is still a few years away

[/quote]3. Wait for the day when Car Companies can bring a car which can run on both electricity and petrol/diesel independently. Meaning it would have a small battery which will have a range of 50-100 kms which can be charged using an external charger. And once the battery runs out of juice, the car will automatically switch to petrol/diesel engine for the rest of the journey. The best car for daily city commutes on batteries and those occasional long drives on petrol/diesels.[/quote]

Duly considering the space constraints, it would be difficult to accommodate an ICE and electric motor which are both efficient I guess.

One solution could be the cars having provision to accept larger battery packs installed when in need and have battery swapping/leasing stations like what the Tesla does in the US. When one intends for long commute, he can swap a long range battery, get done with the trip and return it back in the swapping station. We might be able to see such solutions once EV adaption is widespread.
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Old 1st January 2022, 09:49   #146
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

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Originally Posted by raghupro View Post
I am no expert by all means but from what little I understand here are my thoughts.

EVs costing 25 lakhs in the current Indian market still only offer around 250-280km range only. Having 500km range is still a few years away

Duly considering the space constraints, it would be difficult to accommodate an ICE and electric motor which are both efficient I guess.

One solution could be the cars having provision to accept larger battery packs installed when in need and have battery swapping/leasing stations like what the Tesla does in the US. When one intends for long commute, he can swap a long range battery, get done with the trip and return it back in the swapping station. We might be able to see such solutions once EV adaption is widespread.

Well cars like that do already exist and are called PHEV (Plug in Hybrid electric vehicles). There have been many models and the Skoda Octavia IV launched in Europe is another good example. If these kind of cars come to India, the customer can get the best of both worlds without any range anxiety.

Last edited by Behemoth : 1st January 2022 at 09:51.
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Old 24th January 2022, 17:10   #147
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Re: Team-BHP's new Electric Car section

Great to have a forum on EV

Though I agree that EV is the future but I did a bit of reading and came across some point on EV not sure if it is true.

- The Maintainance is high when you require it
- Insurance is 25-30% more than Petrol vehicle’s
- Depreciation is also more as compared to Petrol vehicles
- Resale value is much less
- The value of your vehicle is based on the life of your battery.
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Old 24th January 2022, 18:12   #148
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

One noob question.

Can we have a car like this:

1. An engine, that keeps running in its optimal RPM always, and not connected directly to the wheels.
2. A set of electric generators attached to a long shaft connected to the engine. No battery in between.
3. Power from these generators to be used by motors to move the car, controlled by the accelerator.
4. This way, since the engine is always in its optimal RPM, we can expect the best FE.
5. Also, since the electric power is available on tap of the accelerator, it can give the electric-car-like acceleration.
6. Since no battery is needed. So, the cost will be something similar to IC engines.

Are the manufacturers missing something / am I missing something very seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14000rpm View Post
...the electricity Generated is not sufficient enough to keep the battery on a constant State of Charge (SOC).
In my idea, no battery to be used other than the normal small battery. Power from the generator to be directly given to the motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Isn't Daihatsu Rocky/ Toyota Raize e-Smart Hybrid work on the same principle ? Expectation that the Mid size SUV D22/YFG from Toyota/Maruti Suzuki to get this system.

Delivering 28km/l is the e-Smart Hybrid:
Oh! They have stolen my idea! But in my idea, no battery to be used other than the normal small battery.

Last edited by romeomidhun : 24th January 2022 at 18:40.
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Old 24th January 2022, 18:19   #149
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
One noob question.

Can we have a car like this:

1. An engine, that keeps running in its optimal RPM always.
2. A set of electric generators attached to a long shaft connected to the engine.
3. Power from these generators to be used by motors to move the car, controlled by the accelerator.
4. This way, since the engine is always in its optimal RPM, we can expect the best FE.
5. Also, since the electric power is available on tap of the accelerator, it can give the electric-car like acceleration.

Are the manufacturers missing something / am I missing something very seriously?
Have you heard about BMW i3? you should read about it. The issue with this, as I've understood and I'm willing to be corrected, is that the electricity Generated is not sufficient enough to keep the battery on a constant State of Charge (SOC).
There are many examples of such cars which haven't really gone mainstream.
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Old 24th January 2022, 18:23   #150
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Re: Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
One noob question.

Can we have a car like this:

1. An engine, that keeps running in its optimal RPM always, and not connected directly to the wheels.
2. A set of electric generators attached to a long shaft connected to the engine.
3. Power from these generators to be used by motors to move the car, controlled by the accelerator.
4. This way, since the engine is always in its optimal RPM, we can expect the best FE.
5. Also, since the electric power is available on tap of the accelerator, it can give the electric-car-like acceleration.

Are the manufacturers missing something / am I missing something very seriously?
Isn't Daihatsu Rocky/ Toyota Raize e-Smart Hybrid work on the same principle ? Expectations are that the Mid size SUV D22/YFG from Toyota/Maruti Suzuki to get this system.

Delivering 28km/l is the e-Smart Hybrid:

Quote:
the e-Smart Hybrid is powered exclusively by a 106 PS/170 Nm electric motor, with the WA-VEX 1.2 litre Atkinson-cycle three-cylinder engine acting solely as a generator (a range extender of sorts). That mill produces 82 PS at 5,600 rpm and 105 Nm of torque from 3,200 to 5,200 rpm. Daihatsu claims a combined fuel consumption figure of 28 km per litre on the WLTP cycle
Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head-2021daihatsurockyesmarthybrid11.jpg

Electric Cars...through the eyes of a diehard petrol-head-2021daihatsurockyesmarthybrid10.jpg

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Last edited by volkman10 : 24th January 2022 at 18:35.
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