[Equus]

Thanks GTO for the wonderful insights!
Where do things like "german engineering", "quality revolution", etc stand in an all EV world?



In other words, would a Tigor EV be at par with a Kona EV except only for power/range?

[Mortis]

I think for faster adoption, EVs should have two types of batteries. One core battery under the floor pan with 2-300km of actual range and 2-4 removable standardized batteries using a common platform among manufacturers. There can go into slots between the rear door and wheel well into the underseat area with a range of 40-50km each. These would work like fuel or a range extender with small swapping stations that can be set up in petrol pumps. Swap these quickly to add 80-100 Kms in minutes and with small stations in petrol pumps, you will never be out of range. A charging circuit for the additional batteries can be skipped or done in such a way that the core battery is charged first then the add-ons.
Swapping stations could have 50-100 battery capacity so shouldn't take up more space than a van that is permanently parked.

[aniketbapat]

Thanks GTO , Well rounded review covers all aspects of EV . From a diehard diesel fan here is something interesting i just read that highlights the challenge of EV infra in India nicely , we cant get over diesel can we !! .


Diesel Powered electric buses in Pune

[car love]

IMHO electric power has a Long long way to go and one cannot be absolutely sure if this will actually be the power source of future vehicles. There have been various such times of dilemma in automotive history...
Coming to India, we are a nation that is perennially short on electric power. We have load shedding for several hours of the day in many places of the country. Now if there is widespread EV adoption our grids will collapse like bowling pins.
Saudi aramco have lined up massive investments for India. It is one of the smartest oil producers in the world and they know...
Also there is more than 200 years of gas reserves (besides fuel) left in the world at current consumption. I dont think electric power is coming anytime soon, if at all...

[Harshal.Bhosale]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

While this is a problem at present, there are people looking into converting the battery to do double duty and act as the frame of the car. Think about ladder frame to monocoque designs but with batteries this time. For example, the "structural battery" in the article below is an idea along these lines.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ocoque-unique/

Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting read! My only information about the Rimac C-One was with Richard Hammond's crash two years ago, so I didn't know its underlying structure. It's quite mind-boggling to imagine batteries being a structural component, so I think I'll have to do some reading on this. I think it's worth sharing the relevant bit of the article here:

It’s quite special. It’s a carbon fiber monocoque like lots of people have, but this is the first one with a structural battery pack integrated. And the battery modules are also structural. Then, it’s also a single carbon piece. It’s the only carbon monocoque like that. So, for example, a McLaren carbon tub is very small, while ours is very big, and the front and rear suspensions are on the same part. It’s one piece. A Porsche 918 or a Bugatti Chiron have subframes front and rear, and other supercars also have aluminum or steel add-ons, but ours is full carbon fiber, all the way from the rear crash structure to the front crash structure. What isn’t carbon is only designed for a crash. The front and rear powertrains are also integrated in the monocoque, so every important part is inside. The only bit outside at the front is the cooling system, a very complex one of that.

Source - linked article in quoted post:


I think the batteries will still be in the floor (anywhere above would be absurd for a hyper-car from the center-of-gravity perspective, and the "structural duty" they do is probably going to be similar to any other skateboard configuration EV out there, only that the carbon fiber monococque is probably more intimately wrapped around the cells. Like I said, I'd be interested to read more about it having studied automotive BIW structures and crashworthiness at university.

Another interesting fact is their recent partnership with Porsche (via Porsche's increased 15.5% stake in Rimac, which Porsche has probably used to import electric powertrain technology into the Taycan and other upcoming electric cars) and Mahindra (by way of Pininfarina's Battista). Also, I read recently how Mate Rimac, the young 31-year-old founder, was called "Europe's Elon Musk". His response (link):

"I really respect Elon. I don't like it when people say I am the 'Elon Musk of Europe' of whatever. I have never met the guy but I have huge respect for him"

...
"We are a much smaller company," he said. "Obviously the electric cars are connecting us but what he is doing and what we are doing is on a totally different scale and different impact. We are of course trying to do our part in the transition to a different kind of mobility, to a different kind of energy usage, from fossil fuels to electric and helping other car companies to go electric"

[hemanth.anand]

Thanks GTO for a well rounded review. How did I miss this for so many days!

I wouldn't say that I'm a convert, but I am definitely convinced.

This comment of your summed it up for me.

All the people who say they don't like EVs, will flaunt their EVs soon.

What I dislike about EVs:
• No downshifting pleasure. No gears. No manual gearbox. Period
• Absence of that special "mechanical feel" & purity
• No aural pleasure from an engine revving sweetly, no free-flow exhausts, no turbo whistles

You've listed 9 dislikes. While the remaining 6 are valid dislikes, what I feel about the above 3 is that they are just mindset things (they are still very much valid dislikes). We have been tuned for close to one and a half century towards vehicles that run on fossil fuels-external and then Internal combustion. We have seen the engine develop over so many generations, and hence it's very close to our hearts. We don't like to let go of something close to our hearts and accept an entirely different one. Exactly why many people still love old cars and own and drive one. Had ICE technology and EV technology developed at the same time, who knows, ICE vehicles would've died much earlier!

Can't agree more with you when you write "there are good EVs and Bad EVs just like good ICE cars and Bad ICE cars". I love my GT TSI but dislike my Alto AMT. I love my Ather 450 and My Vespa too. I dislike the E2O but with each passing day I'm sure my next car will be an EV. Since we have been exposed to only bad EVs, our impression about an EV is not good. Tesla with Cars and Ather with Scooters have successfully started to change that. The future players will come with good EVs and change that further. and more importantly, EVs will become affordable going forward.

I'm working in an automotive company and working on technology related to fuel. It's a threatening development from that perspective but then the future is Electric whether we like it or not. As they say, change is the only constant!

As regards to the charging infrastructure in India, while the situation is not good now, we have proved many times that we are very fast adapters to change. as recent as demonetization, where digital mode of payments went from nowhere to everywhere. I'm more than sure that we will adapt, we will develop.

I feel that pretty soon (the next decade), Range anxiety will be something for people who would've still preserved their ICE cars. Without enough refueling stations they will be not sure of reaching their destination!

[VPJ74]

Wonderful to find such an enthusiastic bunch cheering for the adoption of a cleaner and greener world.

After the Kona, what does the pipeline for EV's look like in India?

[Chrome6Boy]

Originally Posted by VPJ74

Wonderful to find such an enthusiastic bunch cheering for the adoption of a cleaner and greener world.

After the Kona, what does the pipeline for EV's look like in India?

Agreed! Its great to see so many people having positive views and so much great data to understand this better, something clearly missing from mainstream media.

Many thanks GTO for this thread, great information indeed.

I read an autocar article detailing the following EV cars coming out in 2020.

Tata Nexon
Tata Tigor
Tata Altroz
MG ZS
Mahindra KUV100
Mahindra XUV300
Mahindra Ford Aspire
Audi E-Tron
Porsce Taycan
Jaguar I pace
Maruti Wagon R
Volvo XC40

At least seven of these cars will be affordable to the common man. I feel many of the questions asked in this thread like ground clearance, insurance costs, charging locations and speeds will get answered pretty quickly. Many people will buy EVs once they realise running costs are close to Rs. 1 per KM.

What colour license plates will EV cab drivers get? I understand cab fleets have already begun testing the Tigor EV.

[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by GTO

What I dislike about EVs:

• No downshifting pleasure. No gears. No manual gearbox. Period
• Absence of that special "mechanical feel" & purity
• No aural pleasure from an engine revving sweetly, no free-flow exhausts, no turbo whistles
• Battery packs make them heavy!

Superb thread GTO, it clarified a lot of things in my head!

Couldn't agree more to the above points, things that made a car appealing are mostly absent in EVs. Exhaust note, transmission whirring, building up the revs and listening to the sheer music.

I felt the same thing in 2014 when F1 went for turbo-hybrid powertrains. It simply took the 'soul' out of the machine. Especially missed the rifle shot like downshifts!

I remember in 2008 as well, when Audi was running 3.5L V6 turbo-diesels prototypes in the WEC, the only sound you could hear was the whistle of the turbos and tyre noise. Their chief engineer mentioned that 'noise' is a form of 'waste' which they had managed to convert into useful energy in their race cars. However, form the spectator's POV, it robbed us from the theater that is motor racing!

Coming back to EVs and Tesla in particular, want to know your opinion of their acquisition of Maxwell Tech which makes Super Capacitors. This article (https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...0215.article#/) says that it is for their semi-trucks but surely they would not have acquired an entire company just for their trucks. Use of Super Capacitors (apart from short bursts of acceleration, especially in the 'ludicrous' mode) is not much is it? The article also mentions that electric buses in China use an induction loop for quick charging as supercaps recharge very quickly since they store electrostatic energy.

Also the fact that supercaps can have millions of charge/discharge cycles, work well in low temp ambient conditions and most important of all do not pollute the environment like conventional batteries make them a good candidate for EVs in the future, the only question being how to increase their energy density..

[Dead Head]

This is a very topical thread but reading through it I could not get to gauge the first hand ownership experience of any one with an EV living in an Indian city. I have seen EV charging stations at hotel parking lots in China and Hongkong but am yet to see any in Mumbai. Besides, building societies also need to provide charging ports next to the parking slots. Perhaps such infrastructure is already coming up?

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by Mortis

I think for faster adoption, EVs should have two types of batteries. One core battery under the floor pan with 2-300km of actual range and 2-4 removable standardized batteries using a common platform among manufacturers. There can go into slots between the rear door and wheel well into the underseat area with a range of 40-50km each. These would work like fuel or a range extender with small swapping stations that can be set up in petrol pumps. Swap these quickly to add 80-100 Kms in minutes and with small stations in petrol pumps, you will never be out of range. A charging circuit for the additional batteries can be skipped or done in such a way that the core battery is charged first then the add-ons.
Swapping stations could have 50-100 battery capacity so shouldn't take up more space than a van that is permanently parked.

Battery swapping only works in following scenarios:

1. All manufacturers standardize on the battery size/power specs.

2. Battery is owned by a swapping service provider. It should be same swapping service provider in entire network, because taking a worn out battery by another provider doesn't work. So, it is more like battery leasing, which you keep swapping on your way and surrender at the end of your journey.

1st is difficult & takes long time to achieve. 2nd needs a huge capital investment.

May happen somewhere down the road.

[smekad]

Originally Posted by GTO

The automotive world is on the cusp of EVs.

Some interesting presentation on this..Tony Seba is a Silicon Valley Clean Energy Evangelist . Some of the comparisons he makes is eye opening and predictions are surreal..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ud-...ature=youtu.be

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy

I read an autocar article detailing the following EV cars coming out in 2020.

Tata Nexon
Tata Tigor
Tata Altroz
MG ZS
Mahindra KUV100
Mahindra XUV300
Mahindra Ford Aspire
Audi E-Tron
Porsce Taycan
Jaguar I pace
Maruti Wagon R
Volvo XC40

Out of the above cars, to me only Nexon makes sense right now. XUV300 might, if priced right. Other cars are either likely to be inadequate in range, or too expensive.

One thing I value to most in car buying - Serviceability. If you buy any car that is low in numbers, your risk of not getting spares in years to come is high. Nexon is an established product in India, with service network across India too (though electric drive may be new). It will share many mechanical parts with Fossil Fuel Nexon.

Having used an Electric car (E2O ) for 5 years now, and having monitored EV failure statistics world wide - one thing I know - the electric drive isn't something that fails.

So, Nexon perhaps is the best bet. XUV300 would be too, as Mahindra now has a staff that has managed electric cars for over a decade in India!

[bullock-Car]

i found the following chart about the exploding number of electric cars available in 2020.
I happened to visit the Ather showroom and was amazed at the simplicity of the concept and architecture. THe electric cars are the future.
The announcement of sony electric cars at CES 2020 was a warning that various companies without the legacy automobile brands are entering and the existing players should really be worried.

[coolkurt]

Originally Posted by hkollar

It will share many mechanical parts with Fossil Fuel Nexon.

Only the interiors perhaps. And suspension components. Or they'll have probably bolstered the suspension too owing to the battery weight. Electric cars have fewer mechanical parts. A lot of the components will be entirely different.