[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by frewper

Every country should in my opinion. But let's look at it this way, isn't Hyundai an Indian company too? Just like BMW India is not BMW Germany, Hyundai India exists. The companies are structured this way, as per the rules of the Indian Govt, so that the money needs to stay in the country. When companies like Hyundai enter India, they are made to make enormous commitments. All the people who work at the company from Engineers, Management, Workers, Sales, After Sales etc are Indians. They also pay the required taxes every year. They dont they also deserve the same opportunity to sell a car to the govt? Doesn't it also mean that if Hyundai wasn't there, we would have had to deal with the low range cars that TATA and Mahindra is making.

No they aren't. Tomorrow if Hyundai India or BMW India shut shop due to any financial reasons, Indian government won't give them the level of support it would for a Tata or a Bajaj. Same as example of GM - US govt scene during the financial crisis.

Similarly, if relationships between South Korea and India go really bad, Hyundai and Kia would have to sing to the tune of S. Korea than India. This obviously have a lot more factors coming in, but overall direction would be so. Think Trump pushing for tariffs against German manufacturers for example.

Anyway this is OT, so let's focus on the main thread conversation.

[GeeTee TSI]

Given Tata's spokesperson-fare response, they are probably hiding behind the tender specifications which would have mentioned specific criteria like range but maybe not the unsaid aspects like 'the vehicle would have a power to weight ratio of X or should accelerate at the rate of Y'.

Both the bidders smartly (as it would have seemed then) engineered the product to 'just' meet the tender criteria and the whole practical usability aspect went out of the window. While this is acceptable as per the tender, it failed the user need and the one to blame is EESL who set the specifications.

Unfortunately, two OEMs despite their experience and expertise; just went with the tender to produce a dud each and reputational loss was if anything, self made

[frewper]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

No they aren't. Tomorrow if Hyundai India or BMW India shut shop due to any financial reasons, Indian government won't give them the level of support it would for a Tata or a Bajaj. Same as example of GM - US govt scene during the financial crisis.

Similarly, if relationships between South Korea and India go really bad, Hyundai and Kia would have to sing to the tune of S. Korea than India. This obviously have a lot more factors coming in, but overall direction would be so. Think Trump pushing for tariffs against German manufacturers for example.

Anyway this is OT, so let's focus on the main thread conversation.

OT, certainly. Why should we be concerned about India, South Korea relationship anyway. We aren't facing any issues with them, nor are there any signs of it. This argument is just another 'what if' that doesn't make sense. It's like saying, I should go not go near the sea in GOA, what if I get attacked by a shark. Well there no sharks in Goa. What if it swims in from the Pacific ocean? Completely pointless 'what if', isn't it?

Bailouts are not given to companies if they are just having financial trouble, bailout are to protect the people and to save jobs in case if the failure of a company can cause others to fail as well.

Tata owns a market share of 5%, and Hyundai owns 20%. If hyundai were to face a financial crisis, I am sure Hyundai will be the one which loses more jobs than TATA. Naturally the Govt will be concerned. Saying Tata will get support and not Hyundai may not be true.

I don't see the Govt bailing out Jet airways even after the company had financial trouble. So being a true Indian company has nothing to do with it.
Hence when buying cars for the Govt, not considering Hyundai because its foreign, would be a grave mistake.

[wheelguy]

Well, members who are praising Hyundai and criticizing Tata/Mahindra, here in this particular case should understand few things:

-Hyundai had a much bigger better global market presence than both Tata and Mahindra, so development costs can be recovered from multiple markets whereas Indian OEMs have to purely/mostly depend on Indian market to recover the R&D costs.

-If I remember correctly, Hyundai is importing Kona to India because GOI allowed carmakers to import 2500 cars per year without any hassles. They already had Kona production plant from which they are importing the car to India using the newly eased norms, ask them to manufacture the car in India and provide at the current price and see if they will? (Surely, they will not invest in EV manufacturing in India until they find justifiable volumes, they will not even invest in converting their sub-4-meter sedan into an EV like what Tata & Mahindra did.)

-In the previous tenders government of India was very tight on budget per car which is not the case now. Tata/Mahindra tried to match to the GOI's budget expectations whereas other OEMs simply refused to supply their e-cars in the then budget per car.

-Now GOI realized that they need to stretch the budget to get a better ev, and so they did.

It's pure business for the OEMs, be it Tata/Mahindra or Hyundai. Though they fail, definitely Tata is more of a risk taker than Hyundai India.

[dhanushmenon]

Originally Posted by //M

Saw a Kona with Govt of India sticker recently in Delhi.

Attachment 1925382

That actually need not be an (official) government vehicle. In all probability, it wouldn't be too. Any Tom, Dick and Tiwari can get a sticker made and stick it on his bumper to show off his power/ status/ (or whatever lexicon one may want to use). Much akin to 'Press'/ 'Advocate'/ 'Defence'/ and even 'Son of Member of Parliament'.

[gururajrv]

Whilst Govt has invested in Kona, do you really think if Tata & Mahindra goes back to drawing board and plonks in bigger batteries will still sell their cars like the Kona from Hyundai? I really doubt, because it will surely shoot up costs for them and they wouldn’t really come up to the standards of Hyundai for sure with features but I’m sure Tata will win over on the build quality like their current line up is. However, there lies probability of consumers investing large money on Tata / Mahindra vs Hyundai / Kia / even MG has built a reputation for now.

[//M]

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

That actually need not be an (official) government vehicle. In all probability, it wouldn't be too. Any Tom, Dick and Tiwari can get a sticker made and stick it on his bumper to show off his power/ status/ (or whatever lexicon one may want to use). Much akin to 'Press'/ 'Advocate'/ 'Defence'/ and even 'Son of Member of Parliament'.

Good point, sir. I checked the registration details on parivahan website. It is registered against Energy Efficiency Services Limited (EESL). So in this case, it is actually being used by some executive of EESL or maybe even someone from the Ministry of Power.

[Furebo]

After reading a few responses, I would like to add that Tata and Mahindra supplied vehicles as per the specifications set by the EESL.

Tenders are not discussions, they delivered on the price and specifications

Was it a practical choice to opt for such a small battery pack/range? I think not

But it wasn't Tata or Mahindra who were responsible

If someone asks you to make a car with 80 KMS range would you add a battery good for 160 KMS?

The government botched up, they should just revise the tender

[avingodb]

Today, while i was at Concorde service centre for my car's service, I saw 6 Tigor EVs undergoing maintenance and/or testing. 4 of them had the Government of India and EESL stickers. So the government is balancing its order books to local business as well.

[Screwdriva]

There goes Maruti from the EV race. Looks like Hyundai is the only company that can rise to the challenge. Our Indian executives are like so many Bollywood stars. Infamous in India. Incompetent everywhere else!

[sri_tesla]

Major issue with earlier procurement by EESL was the range. EESL mentioned 130 kms range as requirement. Both Tata and Mahindra used ARAI range figures (slow speed in ideal conditions) and claimed their cars will go 130+ kms. In the real world the range was way below the 130 kms (around 80 kms). Its the fault of both EESL and Manufacturers.

ARAI certification is the most bizarre one for testing real world range of EVs. The sad thing is, even today the EVs are being certified under the same conditions. For example, Kona EV gets 452 kms of range while the WLTP (European) range which is closer to real world is 289 kms. Good thing with Kona is, the real world range is till very high.

[charanreddy]

Personally I think this is a waste of tax payer money. Why do Babu's need costly cars at three times the price of a similat compact SUV. Instead of coming up with a good electric car policy for the public , they treat themselves to the newest EV on the block ☹️, while we pay abnoxiously high taxes, get little in return and treated like crap.. if possible do create a small car policy that incentivises a small footprint inexpensive EV city car.. while you splurge our money..

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

They bought the tigor in the first round of selection, and the bureaucrats suffered and no one used. Imagine going in 40bhp car which weighs a ton and struggles to reach 60kph vs. a car which can outrun a regular ICE sedan easily.

Actually a 40BHP electric will reach 60 lot earlier than a 100BHP ice engine.
The 19 Ton BYD Electric buses we have here need barely 60BHP to cruise at 60 kph.
The electric cars use a software to gradually increase frequency so that battery life is increased, starting on a flat road one does not use even 15 BHP. On gradients the battery management software will allow you to use more power.

Cells in EV battery are wired in series and parallel combination, You have something like 20 sets in series with 4 cells in parallel in each set. This way loss of one cell does not leave you stranded, but just loads the other 3 cells in parallel with it more.
As voltage will be limited to 72V larger batteries will have more cells in parallel in each unit. This will allow more usable power at lower speeds. So same 40BHP with a larger battery will start better, though the upper end of acceleration like 80 to 120 will remain proportional to motor power.


Rahul

[jalajprakash]

Any procurement for a Government department requires a tender process to happen where the government puts forth their requirements and then anybody who can fulfill those requirements is allowed to apply. The Government cannot just buy goods from whomever they like. I expect this government decision to be challenged in court by the other manufacturers. If the government wanted cars with 400km range, they should've put out a tender stating as such and then invited bids from existing manufacturers instead of just choosing Hyundai without due process.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by jalajprakash

Any procurement for a Government department requires a tender process to happen where the government puts forth their requirements and then anybody who can fulfill those requirements is allowed to apply. The Government cannot just buy goods from whomever they like. I expect this government decision to be challenged in court by the other manufacturers. If the government wanted cars with 400km range, they should've put out a tender stating as such and then invited bids from existing manufacturers instead of just choosing Hyundai without due process.

While most procurement goes through the tender process a lot of procurement also goes through the 'single bidder process' where for specialized needs the Govt knows or trusts only one supplier or only one supplier exists in the country. Organizations like ISRO, Atomic Energy, Armed Forces often have only one supplier across the country for certain needs.