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Old 27th December 2019, 22:53   #16
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

I own, drive and love my Honda but their think-tank is utterly garbage which reflects in their portfolio of cars in India.

I do hope Honda's board is more capable than this utterly out of sync CEO, and replace him before he does further damage to the brand.
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Old 27th December 2019, 23:37   #17
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

For a minute, i thought it was Maruti chairman speaking there, both of these guys should get together and brain storm

Infrastructure and cars are chicken/egg scenario, without cars, the infra guys are like there are no customers why will we open up and the car guys are like look there is no infra, why would people buy.
Kona has sold out it's allotment, MG ZS and Nexon EV will follow up on that trend for sure, while these guys will keep waiting for people to buy their legacy cars.
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Old 27th December 2019, 23:49   #18
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

I think he has a point, I think hybrid would be the way to go by extending the mileage. Just because he's going against the tide doesn't mean he's wrong. The whole world embraced 'plastic' look where it got us!! Now we're saying no to plastic after it's there in evey nook and cranny of our homes, transport, food packaging and hospitals. Just imagine the pile of 'dead batteries' that's going to come from all the EV's and then we'll be crying hoarse to do away with EV's in the future.

Last edited by Durango Dude : 27th December 2019 at 23:51.
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Old 29th December 2019, 08:54   #19
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

you do realize that EV need not be powered by batteries alone the future, the drive train is important, the power source can be switched. Hybrid is just a stop gap, and if he was serious about, he would have pushed it a lot more than just being "we are doing it" effort.
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Old 30th December 2019, 10:06   #20
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

Something that came up during a WhatsApp discussion on a group:

"What happens when everyone on the street has an EV and they all plug in at 10pm to charge them?"

When we do see a mass scale electric vehicle penetration, will the existing power grid and generation be able to cope up with these extreme peak conditions?
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Old 30th December 2019, 10:55   #21
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sri_tesla View Post
There are different regulations in different countries, and we have to abide by them. So it's a must to continue r&d. But I don't believe it will become mainstream anytime soon."

And that is why govt regulations are important. If they were not forced to, these guys would still be selling 2km/l vehicles. If Tesla were not there, these guys would have never brought electric vehicles.
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Old 30th December 2019, 11:21   #22
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

And I was looking forward to the Honda spin on electric, the i-Etec, where they still have the revs all the way to 8k, and throttle the power supply till 6k and 50 kmph and then slingshot the vehicle multi-fold after that.

Poor jokes apart, the CEO has a point, the problem is he uses the point to disguise the development holes within the company.

Electrics are just a gimmick if you ask me, they excel in performance and refinement, and that's great but the CO2 prevention, eco friendliness etc are pure gimmicks.. since most popular forms of energy generation create CO2 for sure. Thermal energy the only source of power for India generates CO2 like none other, same with the uranium mining for nuclear plants. I haven't even started with the fact that CO2 isnt all that bad for the environment to begin with as its a life supporting gas. Chemical affluents alongwith the burning of petrol and diesel are the real problem.

There comes hydrogen cell technology, a true green method of driving. When diesels were touted as great fuels and greener than petrol, when the entire world latched onto the diesel wave, I said its impossible for diesel to be less hameful than petrol (NOx production wise) and I said it here too, now most would agree.

Same with the electric bandwagon.. its just a bandwagon movement and will generate tens of billions for manufacturers for a couple of decades after which their next agenda will be to push hydrogen cells by demonizing the power resource hogging electrics AND EXTREMELY toxic lithium mining (look back in history, this is going to happen without miss).
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Old 30th December 2019, 11:42   #23
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
When we do see a mass scale electric vehicle penetration, will the existing power grid and generation be able to cope up with these extreme peak conditions?
Presently, average instantaneous electricity load between 10 pm to 5 am is about 10% lower than average instantaneous electricity load between 7 am and 9 pm. Electricity load curve has a sharp trough at night and EV use will fill this trough instead of causing any peak. As for the peak, it occurs at around 7 pm and that value is about 10% higher than day time average. Electricity grid and generation successfully meets such peaks on daily basis.

Source: https://posoco.in/download/all-india/?wpdmdl=8873

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
There comes hydrogen cell technology, a true green method of driving.
Hydrogen can be made only by two methods presently, either from natural gas or electrolysis of water. Natural gas forming has way more carbon footprint so that it will never pass any green test. As for electrolysis, it needs electricity and lots of it.

Last edited by ksameer1234 : 30th December 2019 at 11:47. Reason: Source added, more replies
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Old 30th December 2019, 12:31   #24
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Electrics are just a gimmick if you ask me, they excel in performance and refinement, and that's great but the CO2 prevention, eco friendliness etc are pure gimmicks.. since most popular forms of energy generation create CO2 for sure.
Even if powered completely with coal power, EVs are much cleaner than petrol/diesel vehicles.

Quote:
Thermal energy the only source of power for India generates CO2 like none other, same with the uranium mining for nuclear plants.
This is a common misconception among many BHPians. Truth is India is adding more solar and wind power each year, which is sufficient to power all
new car and 2 wheeler sales even if they become EVs overnight.

Quote:
There comes hydrogen cell technology, a true green method of driving.
If you are worried about coal power being used for EVs, then you should be worried even more about hydrogen. Hydrogen generation uses 3-4 times more power than EVs for traveling the same distance.
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Old 30th December 2019, 13:38   #25
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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Originally Posted by Durango Dude View Post
I think he has a point, I think hybrid would be the way to go by extending the mileage. Just because he's going against the tide doesn't mean he's wrong. The whole world embraced 'plastic' look where it got us!! Now we're saying no to plastic after it's there in evey nook and cranny of our homes, transport, food packaging and hospitals. Just imagine the pile of 'dead batteries' that's going to come from all the EV's and then we'll be crying hoarse to do away with EV's in the future.
Hybrids will have batteries in them as well, so as far as waste disposal goes it doesn't make that big of a difference.
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Old 30th December 2019, 15:10   #26
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
Hydrogen can be made only by two methods presently, either from natural gas or electrolysis of water. Natural gas forming has way more carbon footprint so that it will never pass any green test. As for electrolysis, it needs electricity and lots of it.
I would agree, however if you revisit my post, I'd also made it clear that CO2, isn't the enemy, it is chemicals being burned as also particulate emissions. Every activity on earth almost, releases CO2 and its a green gas in the sense that trees cannot make do without it, as also the environment and our very lungs.

In that sense, hydrogen cells is greener in running process where water is the only result. Is it ready for mass manufacturing yet? Not at all, there are some resource conserving ways to extract hydrogen that are under development like High Temperature Water Splitting using solar energy and Photobiological Water Splitting using algae but yes by far the most popular way in US remains by steam where existing geothermal steam plants are harnessed to produce it.. CO2 will be a result but that gas is not bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sri_tesla View Post
Even if powered completely with coal power, EVs are much cleaner than petrol/diesel vehicles.
Are you taking into account lithium mining which has created hundreds of acres of wastelands as a result? Its only going to increase in due course and lithium itself needs a ton of energy to extract and even more so to recycle.

Quote:
This is a common misconception among many BHPians. Truth is India is adding more solar and wind power each year, which is sufficient to power all new car and 2 wheeler sales even if they become EVs overnight.
While I'll believe your statement, we all need proof on exactly how much power is generated through solar and wind, the governments often spew more gas rhetorics than all power planta put together.


Quote:
If you are worried about coal power being used for EVs, then you should be worried even more about hydrogen. Hydrogen generation uses 3-4 times more power than EVs for traveling the same distance.
Not necessarily in the future, I've listed ways above. Again, are we taking into account the toxicity created by lithium extraction, recycling and processing? This creates more chemical release into the atmosphere and land, as compared to an earth friendly gas like CO2. Would be happy to post much more material on the same.

Last edited by dark.knight : 30th December 2019 at 15:12.
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Old 30th December 2019, 15:33   #27
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
as compared to an earth friendly gas like CO2. Would be happy to post much more material on the same.
I would love to read more about this. May be Honda CEO is indeed right and that all this race to reduce CO2 emissions leading to development of electric vehicles is just some deep conspiracy and decades of research is all wrong.
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Old 30th December 2019, 16:50   #28
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
CO2 emissions leading to development of electric vehicles is just some deep conspiracy and decades of research is all wrong.
Going by this, I'd say you've well made up your stance and ready to defend it to any extent, but if you'll indulge in a bit of open minded investigation, it's all there, the only problem is lack of acceptance by the earth and considering every word of popular media as the ultimate truth :




Both by highly qualified people, sure like all other debates we can claim that they have their own agenda and that surely, decades of research cannot be doubted the least bit. The problem is scientific theories have changed a million times since the word was coined. Maybe it's worth it to have an open mind sometimes. Follow the trail of money in this industry, every climate doomsayer is so far left that they are meeting the back of themselves.
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Old 31st December 2019, 17:44   #29
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

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In that sense, hydrogen cells is greener in running process where water is the only result. Is it ready for mass manufacturing yet? Not at all, there are some resource conserving ways to extract hydrogen that are under development like High Temperature Water Splitting using solar energy and Photobiological Water Splitting using algae but yes by far the most popular way in US remains by steam where existing geothermal steam plants are harnessed to produce it.. CO2 will be a result but that gas is not bad.
Hydrogen fuel cell is a great way to produce portable electricity. However, the challenge is to make that gas and transport it to location. With electricity, the transfer is instant and some transmission loss. The current tech with hydrogen doesn't make it ideal for cars, but I saw a video from fully charged about using hydrogen to generate electricity like a diesel generator, and output is pure "new" water. This could be great for remote towns or places where putting them on grid is difficult due to environmental challenges, we could have these generators and refuel them with hydrogen.



Quote:
Are you taking into account lithium mining which has created hundreds of acres of wastelands as a result? Its only going to increase in due course and lithium itself needs a ton of energy to extract and even more so to recycle.
every mineral we extract results in the same, do you think extracting crude is very clean? how much energy is spent on extracting crude, refining it and lastly, transporting it to the destination. Today, the battery tech uses lithium, tomorrow it might be something else, where as crude has been the same for decades, and already it has destroyed so many marine life with spills and what not, i am yet to heard anything about the mining industry do the same damage as CRUDE has already done.


Quote:
Not necessarily in the future, I've listed ways above. Again, are we taking into account the toxicity created by lithium extraction, recycling and processing? This creates more chemical release into the atmosphere and land, as compared to an earth friendly gas like CO2. Would be happy to post much more material on the same.
the toxicity would be way less than extracting the crude.

Renewable energy is increasing in India's electric production, Article here and as of now it accounts for 22% total capacity, but when you look at the growth rate, it's catching up to coal and will surely surpass in near future. This is considering entire India, but few states have higher renewables than the other due to geography, during monsoon, Karnataka was utilizing 60% of its needs from renewables.
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Old 31st December 2019, 20:22   #30
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Default Re: Honda CEO: Are there really customers who want fully-electric vehicles?

Let us analyze this a bit:

On full-electric Vehicles:
The question is not whether customers want electric cars. Customers don't want Petrol/Diesel cars either - there is no fun in standing in queues, paying thousands of rupees and filling fuel in our cars. It is the necessity today. Honda CEO's statement is very indicative of lack of vision.

While his statement on inadequate infrastructure for EVs is true, there is simply no reason for Honda is sit back and relax. In no time, the infra may improve and Honda wouldn't have finished its R&D. They are doing R&D because they are forced by the regulations of various countries? Whats wrong with Japanese companies these days?

On Hybrids:
He believes Hybrids are the way to go for now. Fine, how many (truly) hybrids are in the pipeline, what to expect from them? How is Honda hybrids better than others? What improvements have they made in Hybrid tech? Are they going completely rely on hybrids only for sometime? He has shared no worthy info on these. It only means Honda hasn't worked on Hybrid strategy as well. Simply knowing the tech is not enough in today's cut-throat markets.

To me it only screams complacency! Disappointed.
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