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View Poll Results: Do we need bridge technolgies before completely switching to EVs?
Yes 134 51.74%
No 103 39.77%
Not sure 5 1.93%
Put EVs aside, we need Fuel Cell EVs! 17 6.56%
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Old 18th January 2020, 13:48   #1
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Default Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Sustainable technologies like fuel efficient alternate powertrain reduce fuel consumption, said Shashank Srivastava at ETAuto EV Conclave.

Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs-shashank-srivastava-ev-conclave.jpg
During the presentation, Srivastava also mentioned, “It is a misconception that electric vehicles will come at a lower cost.”

Quote:
New Delhi: It is important to look at the right transition from conventional ICE to fuel-efficient alternate powertrain technologies before we switch to EVs completely, Shashank Srivastava, Executive Director, Maruti Suzuki India said at the ETAuto EV Conclave.

In his presentation on ‘The path to auto electrification in India’, he emphasised that these technologies are sustainable and include strong hybrids (SHEV), Fuel Cell Vehicles and Plug-in-Hybrids (PHEV) along with natural gas (CNG) vehicles.

During the presentation, Srivastava also mentioned, “It is a misconception that electric vehicles will come at a lower cost.”

He added that HEV/PHEV provides scales for EV component manufacturing, business case viability for ‘Make in India’ and bring down the cost of xEV in the long term.

Giving an overview of the transition to electrification from the current stage, he explained how the efficient use of SHEVs can reduce fuel consumption by 30 per cent, while battery operated hybrid vehicles by up to 50 per cent and the simple hybrids by 10 per cent.

According to a Bloomberg report projection, consumer consumption of battery e-vehicles is nine per cent. Srivastava pointed out that the volumes being projected are still very small and since the industry works on volumes, it is important to work on India’s objectives for electrification which are reducing carbon emissions and gaining energy security.

The key challenges for electric vehicles in India include high acquisition cost, range anxiety and the consumer’s perception about EVs, he reiterated.

Sharing a Maruti Suzuki research, Srivastava mentioned that EV charging infrastructure is another major challenge for the industry, “Of all the places where you have parking, only 44 per cent have an electricity point of charging.”

Emphasizing on the need for localization, he also stated that India is a big importer of components and lower competitive prices will only come from scale and volumes.
Do we need bridge technologies? Every small transformation is happening mostly due to heavy handed regulatory changes by the government, despite huge resistance from the industry stalwarts, now if the companies were allowed to reach EV tech via bridge technologies, will the companies ever move beyond the bridge technologies within the required time-frame?

What were your thoughts on this?

Source: ET Auto
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Last edited by wheelguy : 18th January 2020 at 13:53.
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Old 18th January 2020, 14:11   #2
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Déjà vu! Not the first time Maruti is doing it! Maruti has mastered the art of pushing Indians behind. Prior to this, it was their ridiculous comments on safety and now when it comes to tech, they want hybrids. If hybrids are all you are looking at, then wake up from your slumber. At least 10-15 years have gone by when you should have thought about this and have had real hybrids in your portfolio. All you were interested was topping the sales chart (explains why you weren't worried then) and all you could achieve was a mild hybrid. And that also explains this statement in question.

Today the world is moving towards EV. The technology might not be perfect now, and definitely not cheaper as well. May not still be entirely clean but it is the way to go. It is clearly the next big thing; that is obvious. Once production of EV scale up, the economies of scale should take care of the pricing part.

Another thing that is obvious is that Maruti is looking at its business and the allied interests that one pegs to the fossil fuel cars. The industry sure will not go down without fighting & for sure there will be at least 15 years from now where EV & ICE cars will share the roads before EV or any other path-breaking technology takes over.

Being the market leader forever here, Maruti could have done a lot more good to Indian motoring scene but they didn't. That is the biggest disappointment. Yes, where they do deserve credit is establishing stellar benchmarks in customer service.

Last edited by saket77 : 18th January 2020 at 14:31.
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Old 18th January 2020, 15:27   #3
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Another study here about 2050 global market projection (source)
Name:  C27C44ECCD0742C190828AB1BDFEDCE1.png
Views: 6370
Size:  10.5 KB
Agrees with what has been presented...

Although we need to take MSIL’s pitch with a pinch of salt, because Indian market is relatively small and can evolve either faster or slower than world average, I tend to agree that hybrids will provide the scale advantage for EV components and speed up EV adoption.

Last edited by Thermodynamics : 18th January 2020 at 15:28.
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Old 18th January 2020, 15:36   #4
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

If maruti had invested in or delivered proper hybrids then I might be inclined to believe this, But given their track record of compliance special micro hybrids, and exploring the cutting edge of only cost cutting despite being the market leader, I think it's just more crap to stall any investments in setting up the infrastructure for EV's and get an advantage for itself.
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Old 18th January 2020, 16:32   #5
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

EVs in my assessment will come faster and with more rapidly improving technology than what the current ICE manufacturers are understanding. Hybrids by definition are a cobble together – an unelegant engineering patch up of two very different motive sources. I will not be surprised if in 2 years we have EVs with a 400 kms practical real world range as opposed to manufacturer claims.

Let’s examine two other hybrids from other modes of transportation – warships and airliners – and see what happened.

Till the 1960s steam turbines reigned supreme on warships. They offered reliability, huge power ratings but with slow acceleration, high fuel consumption and high maintenance. In came the gas turbines pioneered by the British Royal Navy and the Soviet Navy in the early 1960s. Gas turbines offered very high power to weight and power to volume ratios, outstanding acceleration and maintenance by replacement doctrine. They suck on FE. The Soviets went straight for the worlds first all gas turbine warship, the 5000-tonne Kashin class destroyer. The Royal Navy adopted a more conservative route of a hybrid gas turbine and steam turbine plant involving two steam turbines delivering 15,000 hp each and four gas turbines delivering 7500 hp each. The hybrid was meant to use steam for long cruising and add on gas turbine thrust for acceleration. As it stood this hybrid COSAG (Combines Steam And Gas Turbine) unit did well but it proved complex to exactly co-ordinate the rev up or down of so many individual units with two different acceleration rates. Also the maintenance checks for the two systems were different and could not be designed to be scheduled together. After deploying this hybrid on three classes of warships the Royal Navy did what the Soviets were doing and went all gas turbine.

In aviation too in the late 1940s to late 1950s it was thought that the hybrid turboprop engine will dominate for 15 odd years till the 1960s till pure jet engines became fuel efficient enough to warrant installation on a long range jet airliner. A turboprop is a jet engine with a prominent power absorbtion turbine that drives a conventional propeller. It is quieter and more fuel efficient than a pure turbojet. Turbo props came into airline service in 1953 with the world beater Vickers Viscount. In fact till the early 1960s the longest ranged airliners were turboprops and not jets {Bristol Britannia & Tupolev Tu-114}. But it was clear the long term answer were pure jets and the day the 707 entered service in October 1958 the death warrant of big turboprop airliners was signed. And pure jets evolved so rapidly in fuel efficiency and sheer power that they simply eclipsed the turboprop, in new orders, for medium and big airliners by as early as 1959.

In 1957-59, in the West, three new jet airliners and three new turboprop airliners were introduced. The jets were the Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8 and Sud Aviation Caravelle. The medium to long range turboprops* were Bristol Britannia, Vickers Vanguard and Lockheed L-188. The jets sold 1857 units versus 299 for the turboprops such was the seismic market shift towards the pure jets versus the hybrids.

Maruti’s talk on alternate power trains sounds like the minutes of the meeting of the Association of Horse Carriage Manufacturers in 1901.

* I am not counting small turboprops here for commuter routes or the Soviets

PS: EVs as we see them today are, in my opinion, the interim solution till we leap to fuel cells or hydrogen.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 18th January 2020 at 16:36.
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Old 18th January 2020, 16:47   #6
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Japanese government is pushing for Hybrid because going to BEV means massive job losses in Japan with makers of engine components, transmission components, spark plugs, clutch, filters etc or anything related to I.C engines going out of business. So Maruti is just repeating what Suzuki and other Japanese makers are saying. None of the japanese makers are really interested in BEV and they are clearly lagging in EV behind China, US , EU and South korean makers. Nissan leaf is now dated and like Ghosn said no innovation or new technologies are happening in Nissan.

Hybrid means they have all the moving parts of engines plus more electronics and complexity = even more money to be made in service and spares. So both the mechanical industry and electronic industry makes money.


This 2019 toyota Ad says it all, they are not interested in BEV.

Last edited by aim120 : 18th January 2020 at 16:52.
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Old 19th January 2020, 21:15   #7
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Rather than thinking about cost and business profits, its time to think for technologies which are environmental conscious. Its already late and caused enough damage,if we delay it further, there will be a point where return is impossible.

While making bigger capacity engines to move 2 or 3 people and boasting about 0-100 and top speed while your legal speed limit is 80kmph,and proudly stating that our engine is 10% efficient than previous is just a big joke by automotive giants.

Its high time we promote technologies which help transportation with maximum efficiency and minimum emissions rather than focusing to create more personal luxury automobiles.
History has proved that those who resist change will perish. Hope Maruti embrace the the change and lead the way.
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Old 19th January 2020, 23:03   #8
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Default re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

The time for alternate technologies was the 2010s, where if they powers at be wanted, could have gone petrol electric hybrid in a big way. Instead, our market leaders chose to maximize profits by milking old technologies with incremental changes here and there. Global leaders Toyota and Honda also simply did not bother. They anyway still don’t.

Sorry, but the EVs are here and that’s the fact. It takes one hit product to demonstrate a new or different product and make it mainstream. Diesel engines were once considered crude, dirty, unrefined and suitable only for trucks. All it took was Tata to pioneer with the Indica, and MSIL ran away with it with the diesel Swift. Diesel models which initially costed the same as petrols soon started commanding a premium, which continues till date. Mr Narayan has already given an aircraft analogy above.

It will only take one hit EV to give the masses a taste of the refinement, the instant torque and the low running and maintenance costs. Maybe it will be the Nexon EV, perhaps the WagonR electric, or something else. But it is only a matter of time. EVs are knocking on the door and they are here to stay.

Last edited by Shreyans_Jain : 19th January 2020 at 23:09.
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Old 20th January 2020, 16:42   #9
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Surprised that a majority of BHPians have voted for "no".

Electric cars are a pipe-dream in India and it's still a looooooong time before they become widely acceptable, available & affordable (i.e. the three As ). On the other hand, a "bridge" technology like proper hybrids can be implemented tomorrow. This is a tech designed exactly for our bumper-to-bumper style traffic conditions, in which a large Camry Hybrid gives 15 kmpl. A B2 segment hatchback will easily do 25 kmpl.

Just requires one manufacturer to roll this out with commitment and the others will follow (like AMTs).
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Old 20th January 2020, 17:05   #10
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Traditionally for Maruti, they object to any government policy that deviates from their traditional strength, making small light petrol powered cars. They were initially reluctant on diesels, always objected to new safety standards etc....etc....

So this statement does not come as a surprise, but there is a lot more to it.

Suzuki never really focused their R&D to make the company future technology proof. When rest of the global car makers were busy investing in new technology to meet stricter Western standards, Hamamatsu HQ never really broke a sweat. With profits predominantly coming from it's Indian operations, Suzuki never bothered to fuss around with its winning formula.

The company was caught blind when the Indian government decided to up their game. First they partnered with VW for alternative drive-train technology and we all know how that debacle ended. By the time dust settled on that mess, Suzuki were desperate and the only card they have to play to lure a collaborator is their profitable Indian operations.

Enter Toyota, Suzuki's newest sugar daddy. This statement asking the Indian government to look at alternative technology is simply copying Toyota's official line. Toyota has put its chips on hydrogen and hybrid tech and is way behind in the EV race. Suzuki in turn relies on Toyota's prowess or lack there of.

The EV game will level the playing field in terms of technology plus Suzuki will not really have a cost advantage or neither the first mover superiority.

This is good for the Indian market, I hope the likes of M&M, Tata seize the initiative.
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Old 20th January 2020, 17:08   #11
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Surprised that a majority of BHPians have voted for "no".

Electric cars are a pipe-dream in India and it's still a looooooong time before they become widely acceptable, available & affordable (i.e. the three As ). On the other hand, a "bridge" technology like proper hybrids can be implemented tomorrow. This is a tech designed exactly for our bumper-to-bumper style traffic conditions, in which a large Camry Hybrid gives 15 kmpl. A B2 segment hatchback will easily do 25 kmpl.

Just requires one manufacturer to roll this out with commitment and the others will follow (like AMTs).
Aren't these going to be expensive to build? A regular petrol motor + electric motor, I believe a decent sized electric motor is going to be cheaper to build . Some manufacturers will give it a shot and eventually switch to electric, just like how mobile phone took over the market before pager took off.
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Old 20th January 2020, 17:14   #12
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Electric cars are a pipe-dream in India and it's still a looooooong time before they become widely acceptable, available & affordable (i.e. the three As ).
Speaking of the first 'A' (Acceptability), in addition to Lithium ion batteries' unacceptable tendency to explode when their structural integrity is compromised (e.g., when an EV crashes and the battery gets bent by the impact) or for a myriad variety of other reasons (e.g., overcharging), I just came across one more explosion risk that EVs carry - they can explode in tropical operating temperatures apparently (source: https://energy.economictimes.indiati...icial/73335591)

I find it unacceptable that Lithium ion batteries perform best below 35 degrees Celcius and that they can explode for one more highly relevant reason!

Note: I know that this is a lightning rod for EV enthusiasts to pick upon me for. But I humbly stand my ground. The facts and scientific literature are all out there. Lithium ion battery tech is not yet safe enough, no matter what its cheerleaders have to say about it.
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Old 20th January 2020, 18:48   #13
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I really feel Japanese companies are living in denial by creating constant noise about how EVs are not the future. In doing so, they are ensuring whatever the future is, they will not be part of it. EVs are no more esoteric concept, they are here and people are buying EVs as their chosen mode of transport and not as hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
EVs as we see them today are, in my opinion, the interim solution till we leap to fuel cells or hydrogen.
I don't think EVs are interim, please allow me to explain. Hydrogen fuel cell is actually the first alternative that is a complete non-starter. 95% hydrogen made today comes from breaking down natural gas. Making 1 kg hydrogen emits about 10 kg CO2 (the process which makes 95% hydrogen globally) and this doesn't even account energy for compressing the gas and transportation. Compared to CNG as a fuel, hydrogen doesn't have significant advantage other than being dense in energy but that increased density comes at a cost of energy intensive process.
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Old 20th January 2020, 18:53   #14
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I voted yes because it gives me shudders thinking about going out of charge in a remote place in the Himalayas in an EV on a cold winter night. It will be great to have a hybrid vehicle that can provide the peace of mind as well as reduced emissions.
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Old 20th January 2020, 20:55   #15
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

You would want to go to Himalayan range in a fuel car (mostly diesel) and pollute it at the source of all things? Just remember, unlike in plains or lower altitude, there aren't any trees growing to absorb those pollutants, and they just deposit on the glacier ice, causing the meltdown to increase. Mr. Sonam Wangchuk informed about the damage done by diesel trucks and car at Khardung in a video about tourism killing Leh, and I can't help but wonder why people can't compromise on few unnecessary things to protect the precarious environment there.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 20th January 2020 at 21:13. Reason: Typos and punctuation.
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