[oxyzen]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Just curious to know how come a 20kwh something battery Tigor take 36.8kwh to charge. If after all the inefficiencies can that not be charged with 25kwh of energy.

Charge to 100% should not be calculated by peak power * charge time, the charge power decreases with the battery reaching higher charge.

Absolutely agree.

Generally speaking, we can assume a 90-95% efficiency while charging. Charging power changes continuously over the SOC range.

Also do keep in mind that Batteries will not charge 0-100%. BMS will typically reserve the top and bottom 10% to improve battery life.

An easier calculation is [Energy Efficiency /1000] * 10 (Unit charge) / 0.9 (Charging eff).

[MS_Auto]

It would be worthwhile to look at the TCO. And, for that it might be interesting to factor in 3 additional areas:
1. Depreciation in value over 5 years (since that is when many car owners look for a change)
2. Replacement Battery Cost
3. Maintenance Cost

Since the EVs are more expensive upfront vis-à-vis their ICE counterparts, TCO would be a more appropriate manner to compare EVs against the ICE counterparts.

[arzala]

According to article published in TOI, I have further, based on current pricing, found out that If you buy Nexon BEV now:

1# and plan to use it till 2 Lakh Km, then total cost of ownership (purchase cost, running cost and maintenance cost) will be same as ICE;

2# or plan to use it till 1.5 Lakh Km then it becomes 2 Lakh more costly over ICE;

3# or plan to use it till 1 Lakh Km then it will be 4 Lakh more costly over ICE.

[DarthVeda]

To be honest, that TOI article is utter crap. It doesn't take into account servicing of vehicles and is comparing ARAI figures. Run a fuel car in Bengaluru traffic and you will know where your fuel efficiency lies

[Octane99]

Originally Posted by MS_Auto

Since the EVs are more expensive upfront vis-à-vis their ICE counterparts, TCO would be a more appropriate manner to compare EVs against the ICE counterparts.

Originally Posted by arzala

According to article published in TOI, I have further, based on current pricing, found out that If you buy Nexon BEV now:

1# and plan to use it till 2 Lakh Km, then total cost of ownership (purchase cost, running cost and maintenance cost) will be same as ICE;

2# or plan to use it till 1.5 Lakh Km then it becomes 2 Lakh more costly over ICE;

3# or plan to use it till 1 Lakh Km then it will be 4 Lakh more costly over ICE.

As of now there are so many unknowns,
We are still uncertain about battery & engine reliability, depreciation in range over the years, service cost, accidental repair costs, fragility of components in case of an accident etc.
But EVs have few advantages like lower running cost, next to zero service charges, FAME subsidy, Zero Road Tax in few states, less variation in energy efficiency on lower speeds, etc

At the end of the day, its about cleaner and pollution free environment and I hope everyone try to bear the insignificant extra cost for a better future.

[nickatnite]

Originally Posted by Octane99

As of now there are so many unknowns,
We are still uncertain about battery & engine reliability, depreciation in range over the years, service cost, accidental repair costs, fragility of components in case of an accident etc.
But EVs have few advantages like lower running cost, next to zero service charges, FAME subsidy, Zero Road Tax in few states, less variation in energy efficiency on lower speeds, etc

At the end of the day, its about cleaner and pollution free environment and I hope everyone try to bear the insignificant extra cost for a better future.

I'm not really sure about a 'cleaner and pollution free environment'. Do you realize the amount of fossil fuels like coal etc. that have to be burnt to generate the volume of electricity needed to power millions of vehicles and power them again to keep them running?. If we use nuclear energy to generate electricity then we will have to create a separate land mass just to dispose of the spent fuel. If all of us charge our cars at the same tome, either morning or night i know the transformer in my apartment building will go for a toss. It often does on holidays when most a/cs are on. Disposal of hydrogen cells and batteries can be a nightmare as they will pose a bigger threat to the soil. Why do we have to worry when there is enough fossil fuel in the world atleast for another generation. I fail to understand the ill-thought out mad rush to produce EVs before creating the infrastructure to sustain them especially in India.

[Keeleri_Achu]

Originally Posted by nickatnite

I'm not really sure about a 'cleaner and pollution free environment'. Do you realize the amount of fossil fuels like coal etc. that have to be burnt to generate the volume of electricity needed to power millions of vehicles and power them again to keep them running?.

I don't agree with 'pollution free' either. But there is no doubt that it'll be cleaner for sure. The efficiency of an EV is twice or thrice that of a comparable ICE vehicle, if not more. So I'm sure their net emission will definitely be lower than an ICE vehicle.

If we use nuclear energy to generate electricity then we will have to create a separate land mass just to dispose of the spent fuel.

Nuclear waste disposal is a global problem. To date no one have been able to give a concrete solution except to just bury it somewhere keeping our fingers crossed. That is exactly why we need to put more emphasis on renewable energy.

If all of us charge our cars at the same tome, either morning or night i know the transformer in my apartment building will go for a toss.

Do you honestly believe everyone in your apartment is going to switch to an EV overnight? If something of that scale happens, true, our grid will go kaput. By the time EVs get to a level where they can be considered as a genuine alternative to an ICE car in India (I'm not talking about a second car or a city car), I'm sure our grid will be capable of handling the demand.

Disposal of hydrogen cells and batteries can be a nightmare as they will pose a bigger threat to the soil.

True. That is why battery recycling should be given special emphasis. Companies are already setting up plants for battery recycling in India. Not every bit of it can be recycled. I agree. But at the end of the day I would pick the lesser of two evils.

Why do we have to worry when there is enough fossil fuel in the world atleast for another generation.

I don't agree with this statement at all. We have a problem at hand. Should we sit around and hope that the next generation will be able to tackle it? Doing nothing will cost more than doing something, no matter how little, in the present. Battery technology is not perfect. But it is being worked upon as we speak. Solid state batteries have much higher energy density (two or three times of a comparable Li ion battery), much higher charging speed, lower usage of hazardous chemicals and lower risk of fire. Most auto companies are now pouring billions in to their R&D. If they have any doubt about battery tech's future, they would still be investing in ICE tech. True, ICE engines have been getting efficient year after year. But it is nowhere near as to what have been happening in the EV world. So in my mind, there is no doubt where we should be investing our money.

I fail to understand the ill-thought out mad rush to produce EVs before creating the infrastructure to sustain them especially in India.

Sir, there is no mad rush. As of now we have three or four models which is worthy to be used as a second/city car. They might be able to sell a few thousand of them every month. Compared to the 3 lakhs or so ICE cars that are being sold. Commercial vehicles are yet to see any viable alternatives. As far as I can see, EV adoption is going at a very gradual, acceptable pace, without causing too much disruption to our existing ICE sector.

It will take decades for EVs to become mainstream in my opinion. Battery costs are still too high for mass market adoption. They could work in some European countries where the government can force their adoption by giving sky high subsidies and putting penalties on ICE vehicles. But that is not possible in a market like India. The government can give benefits like tax exemptions. But that is not enough for a radical adoption.

I'm from Kerala who is currently residing in US. Even in California, the most EV friendly state in all of US, you probably won't buy one if you don't have access to overnight charging facilities. Because the public charging rates are absurd. In Kerala, it's safe to say that we have a fairly robust grid and access to power 24x7. But still, I don't expect the rate of EV adoption to be too high. There are next to no public charging facilities and even the ones who know all about the technology, would work out the economics in their head before taking the plunge. Personally my use case doesn't align with that of an EV, as of now. Neither in Kerala nor in US. So it's safe to say that I won't be buying one anytime soon. And a poll in the forum about the same shows the same. Even then, I believe that EV is still the future and when the prices do come down, we are going to see a lot more of them.

[chandu1382]

Originally Posted by Octane99

Again I'll say that a comprehensive running cost will be somewhat more than what is estimated here in this thread as it will include Cost of home charger installation, Home electricity Load Extension, Parking space modification, Insurance, Service & Maintenance, Toll taxes, Parking, etc.

Thanks.

1) If some corporations charge Rs. 4.5 and some charge Rs. 10 per unit of electricity I think it's better to use the average of it in your calculations


2) TATA is installing a charging facility at home for free. Even if you want an additional charging facility at your office, unless if it's a DC fast charge station, the cost is minimal. 15A socket, wiring and electrician charges. Should cost roughly 5k on the extreme side.



3) Home electricity load extension: Every power bill has two components. Fixed and variable charge. Fixed charge doesn't change based on your consumption as the name says. If the corporation asks you to increase the installed load then the fixed charge increases but the variable charge depends only on the consumption. Moreover, in a few states, there is no fixed charge for residential connections.



4) Parking space modification? What exactly do we need to modify? We just need to have an extra 15A socket.



5) Insurance, toll tax, parking, service and maintenance problems exist even for ICE cars. What's new or extra about it?



6) AC to DC loss is around 10-15% at the max. 32% assumption is way too high.



Please let's be practical in our discussions.

[nickatnite]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

I don't agree with 'pollution free' either. But there is no doubt that it'll be cleaner for sure. The efficiency of an EV is twice or thrice that of a comparable ICE vehicle, if not more. So I'm sure their net emission will definitely be lower than an ICE vehicle.

Truly appreciate your response but i would like you to take a look at the pic below of two-wheelers lining up for petrol in Cochin, Kerala during heavy rains in 2018. Just imagine if all these vehicles were electric and the power supply was disrupted due to heavy rainfall?.

Photo copyright Manorama online.

[chandu1382]

Originally Posted by nickatnite

Truly appreciate your response but i would like you to take a look at the pic below of two-wheelers lining up for petrol in Cochin, Kerala during heavy rains in 2018. Just imagine if all these vehicles were electric and the power supply was disrupted due to heavy rainfall?.

photo copyright Manorama online

Agree. The chances of a power cut during the rainy and summer seasons in India is much higher than lorry strikes (to bring fuel to the fuel stations) and petrol bunk strikes.

Also, we can't rely on an EV for midnight medical emergencies (when it's charging) and impromptu long trips. Not yet.

So for now, an EV can be perfect only as a second car in the house.

However, when there's a need for better infrastructure sooner or later it will arise. We see a problem some see an opportunity. Let's hope more people look at it as an opportunity. Until then let's enjoy EVs as our second cars.

[Keeleri_Achu]

Originally Posted by nickatnite

Just imagine if all these vehicles were electric and the power supply was disrupted due to heavy rainfall?.

What you have to realize is that EV ecosystem is much different compared to an ICE ecosystem. IMHO, those with EVs probably would've fared better at the beginning of floods. Let me explain with a simple example.

My father is one of those people who NEVER fill up for more than Rs.100 in his trusty old Activa. To be fair to him, the humble scooter will run for a week on that amount of fuel. He'll frown upon me whenever I feel sorry for the poor thing and 'splurge' money by filling it for 200 or 250. The same person connects his phone with a 4000 mAh battery to the charger whenever it's not in use. And will again frown upon me whenever I connect mine by unplugging his phone. Now I know for a fact that there are many more like him.

EVs are similar to a gadget when it comes to charging. You're supposed to do it at home and rely on public facilities when you're on a long trip or cannot make it to your charger with the remaining range. The range anxiety factor which is regarded as con will see to it that most, if not all EVs are plugged in overnight to a charger and will thus tend to have at least 80% charge remaining. You'll be even more vigilant when the weather conditions are bad. People tend to charge their emergency lights when there is a thunderstorm. But would they go fill up their cars just because it's raining? I honestly don't think so. Now that will definitely give you more range than your conventional car having a lit fuel warning light.

When it comes to natural disasters or uncertain scenarios, nothing can be predicted. When you talk about floods in Kerala or Chennai, none of us were prepared for it. During such situations, the immediate priority will be to get safety. And in that regard, any EV with at least 50% of range would've been able to make it to a safe spot from the affected area. During Kerala floods, my place didn't face any power outage. And it's safe to assume that at least 50-60% of households would've had power during the crisis or have it restored within 24 hours after the outage. Now there is no doubt that households with power connections handily out number fuel stations pan India. And all EVs are capable of trickle charging while connected to a regular 15A house hold outlet. So I genuinely don't think having an EV would've put you at any disadvantage compared to an ICE vehicle.

As an additional point I would argue that the survival rate of an EV would've been much higher than an ICE car just because of the fact that all EVs are rated waterproof to a certain extent.

Hope I've made my point clear. I won't be commenting on this topic anymore as this is turning into a classic ICE vs EV debate and that is not what this thread is about. Peace

[Octane99]

Originally Posted by chandu1382

1) If some corporations charge Rs. 4.5 and some charge Rs. 10 per unit of electricity I think it's better to use the average of it in your calculations

Actually majority of power corporation charge in between Rs. 7 - 12 per unit and this may reach upto Rs. 14 in cities like Mumbai. Hence I tried of taking a moderate Rs. 10 per unit.
(about Rs. 4.5, as per my knowledge only Himachal Pradesh offers such cheap electricity tariff. Moreover as said, you can always substitute you Rs. 10 with your power tariffs).

Originally Posted by chandu1382

2) TATA is installing a charging facility at home for free. Even if you want an additional charging facility at your office, unless if it's a DC fast charge station, the cost is minimal. 15A socket, wiring and electrician charges. Should cost roughly 5k on the extreme side.

You are bit confused here, actually the 15A charger in all 4 cars is just a portable charger for in-journey/emergency charging requirements.
If you are going to buy an EV, a team of engineers will be visiting your place and do the required inspection whether the home charger (which is an AC 3.3 kW - 7.2 kW device) can be installed in your place or not.
The 15A charger is not for regular charging, for regular charging you have to get the Home Charging Box installed.
(In South Delhi Hyundai have cancelled the booking of 2 Kona, just because a Home Charging Box couldn't be installed properly due to low load capacity of the meter box cable).

Originally Posted by chandu1382

3) Home electricity load extension: Every power bill has two components. Fixed and variable charge. Fixed charge doesn't change based on your consumption as the name says. If the corporation asks you to increase the installed load then the fixed charge increases but the variable charge depends only on the consumption. Moreover, in a few states, there is no fixed charge for residential connections.

In New Delhi, Mumbai, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujrat, Haryana, Andhra Pradesh, Punjab, Madhya Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Telangana, etc,
we have max. load data sensor in our meters, even if we have a low load connection, the meter will sense higher loads and the bill would be generated with higher load fixed charge and penalty. The power corporation won't ask you to extend the load, instead it'll issue a high load penalty.
No fixed charge for residential connections in few state is valid uptill 2kW load only (say - Arunachal Pradesh).

Originally Posted by chandu1382

4) Parking space modification? What exactly do we need to modify? We just need to have an extra 15A socket.

From TEAM-BHP Official Hyundai Kona review -

Originally Posted by ChiragM

• When setting up your charging station at home, do also account for the additional cost of wiring required from the meter box to your parking spot. BHPian sheldon.dz says that he paid Rs. 28,000 for the wiring that was installed by his building maintenance team.

Originally Posted by chandu1382

5) Insurance, toll tax, parking, service and maintenance problems exist even for ICE cars. What's new or extra about it?

I am not comparing ICE and EV, all I said that I've not considered these factor in calculating the daily running cost.

Originally Posted by chandu1382

6) AC to DC loss is around 10-15% at the max. 32% assumption is way too high.

I've verified the data with Hyundai, MG and TATA dealers in South Delhi,
There was some difference in TATA Tigor EV data, which I've corrected earlier in the thread.

[chandu1382]

Originally Posted by Octane99

I am not comparing ICE and EV, all I said that I've not considered these factor in calculating the daily running cost.

A few hours back a person from TATA Power came to my house to inspect the feasibility. Got to know that they're not installing the home charging box for free. After reading so many posts somewhere I started assuming that it's free. Nonetheless, it's not rocket science. Even a normal electrician can do it. Extend a cable from your mains/ DB with wiring and a socket that'll support 15A.




If you're in an individual house or villa then the cabling cost reduces. Like in my example, the length of cable required is less than 5m. (My mains is at the bottom right beneath the window)


But that's the only "modification of the parking space" which is necessary.



Installations in apartments might go up. I'm in the solar energy field and wiring is our regular job. I still can't understand why that person you quoted had to pay 28k. May be the companies are recovering the cost of branding our parking spaces from us.






This is a sample of my power bill.

As mentioned earlier, the residential connections have a lower slab rate when compared to commercial connections.

I live in AP and my fixed charge is 0 though my conencted load is 5KW.

I'm billed Rs. 570 for a consumption of 150 units, which is hardly Rs. 4 per unit.

Of course, once the EV comes my consumption increases and the slab rate might increase too.



For those who have sensors that detect high loads can extend their installed load capacities and avoid penalties.



When we're comparing running costs, we don't factor in parking tickets, toll gate charges, car paint costs, etc unless there's a difference in the charges AND if it's on a regular basis.



PS:

I tried to highlight/ circle the details in the power bill as it's in Telugu but couldn't. I still have to get used to the UI esp from a mobile.

[Octane99]

Originally Posted by chandu1382

A few hours back a person from TATA Power came to my house to inspect the feasibility. Got to know that they're not installing the home charging box for free.

Congratulations on planning to buy an EV
It'll be great if you can share the cost of installation they quoted you.

Originally Posted by chandu1382

I still can't understand why that person you quoted had to pay 28k.

There are just 3 factors I can think of
1- 7.2 kW, Tata is 3.3 - 3.5 kW
2- Difference in cable used for bearing a load of 7.2 kW in comparison to 3.5 kW
3- We are uncertain about the residence of the user I quoted. Maybe his parking space is far from Electric point, maybe his society isn't allowing exposed cables (he must be opting for underground wiring, etc).

Originally Posted by chandu1382

I'm billed Rs. 570 for a consumption of 150 units, which is hardly Rs. 4 per unit.

Wow .
If that's how it stays even after buying an EV, you are so gonna benifit with it.

[chandu1382]

Originally Posted by Octane99

Congratulations on planning to buy an EV
It'll be great if you can share the cost of installation they quoted you.

Just got a call back from TATA Power. They quoted Rs. 5,500/- for installing a home charger at my villa. He said that he'd forward me a link for payment post which they'll do the installation. I insisted for a quote with the material they're going to use.

I'm pretty sure that it would cost around 3-4k if I get it done with my own team.