[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by GTO

Although I love Musk & his achievements, he should take lessons on humility, especially when referencing one of the all-time greats like Bill Gates.

Maybe Gates should actually buy this Hydrogen Yacht for INR 46,13,81,24,200.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51446663

That'll show Musk.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by GTO

In the USA at least, Tesla is like the definition of "cool", especially with youngsters and in California.

California accounts for about half the Tesla market in the USA.
That gets it into the top 10 of most cars sold. But within that top 10 it makes up of only 15% or thereabouts

Top-selling new vehicles in California
First six months of 2019
1. Honda Civic: 39,018
2. Toyota Camry: 33,638
3. Telsa Model 3: 33,005
4. Honda Accord: 27,727
5. Toyota Corolla: 25,673
6. Ford F Series: 25,036
7. Toyota RAV4: 24,398
8. Toyota Tacoma: 22,336
9. Honda CR-V: 19,904
10. Chevy Silverado: 17,706
Source: IHS

Looking at the car taste of Californians, I would still go with the Porsche though!

Jeroen

[Comrade]

Model S is a family car with a bit of sportiness. Taycan is a sport car with a bit of family-friendliness. Musk should release Roadster 2020 if he is so miffed with people buying Taycan.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by akhilesh

Even then a Tesla is more efficient. The best internal combustion engine is 40% efficient and its a Toyota engine. Also, the cheapest and slowest Tesla does a 0-100 in 5.2 seconds. Keep that in mind when you make efficiency comparisons.

Legacy better. Applying the same logic, Tesla has more electric legacy than anyone else and therefore Tesla is better.

There are plenty of losses from power generation to transmission, so fossil fuel powered electric cars are not doing anyone a favor.

Advantage of Taycan is that , now you can buy an electric Porsche!

Tesla is a small player in comparison to BYD, the world`s largest player in the EV Industry. Tesla manages to get a lot of attention, however as time goes by traditional car makers will expand their electric portfolio. The electric only startups may as well fold into some of these conglomerates at some point of time.

BYD supplied a few buses to Bangalore Transport Corporation many years back (2014) for testing. I`m guessing ROI was poor and it was dropped later.

[AnandB]

Don't like Musk's arrogant behavior in general even though Tesla cars and tech are really good as the other team-bhp thread (Tesla teardown reveals tech 6 years ahead of rivals) mentions how they are 6 years ahead of other car manufacturers. Might be a reason for his underwhelmed comment as he probably thought Bill would recognize that. Regardless the comment seems like his publicity stunt as usual.

[GoBlue]

This seems to be a case of extreme vanity and outright narcissism, more than anything else.

The days where Tesla was the only desirable EV are en passe. The "real car companies" are catching up. Musk shouldn't take such things personally. In fact he should embrace competition openly and attempt to put something out there which could be more desirable than the Porsche Taycan.

On another note, I find it unbecoming of Musk to expose his ego on such a public platform (not that this is the first time it's happened). It's uncalled for especially when one is the CEO of the company, being a little balanced is the need of the hour for a company which investors are pouring millions into. Bill Gates is just another customer who's made a choice, he is under no obligation to buy a Tesla! If Musk gets miffed when celebrities buy a competitor's car, it reflects poorly on him. The Tesla board needs to lean on Musk and make him apologize to Gates. That should teach this arrogant man a much-needed lesson.

If the Porsche Taycan is being perceived as desirable by prospective buyers then Porsche is doing something very right and Tesla has every reason to be worried. Given the ridiculous prices that the Model S sells at in the US, I'm not too surprised that Musk is feeling insecure about other folks catching up to a space which he created/made popular.

A responsible and humble Tesla CEO would rather take Mr. Gate's time and hear out feedback on what he found better in the Porsche vs. a Tesla. And show respect for for a competitor's product!

[mohanphadnis]

I have seen so many car reviews of taycan, and except range, people have only good things to say about it.
Now most car reviewers are already in awe of Porsche, but they do claim that a Turbo-S(what is turbo is EV!!!) handles 'almost' as well as 911.

Not even the most ardent tesla fans have ever claimed that tesla can turn . They needed a specially souped up model S to take on nordschleife (they have still not revealed the times, so I am guessing it was slower than Taycan).

Taycan is the fastest production EV at nurburgring, so it is the most desirable. just accept it and move on. Dissing on Bill Gates just seems churlish.

[D33-PAC]

I've driven a Tesla and a Porsche. I can assure you, any self-respecting car nut will go Porsche.

Teslas are soulless machines. A Porsche is akin to a mistress/girlfriend.

Elon's vehicles are widgets. Just economic utensils in his commercial ambitions. A Porsche is more than a number on a balance sheet somewhere.

PS : One of the most intense moments of my life was when I was tracking a 911 GT2.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

There are plenty of losses from power generation to transmission, so fossil fuel powered electric cars are not doing anyone a favor.

Tesla is a small player in comparison to BYD, the world`s largest player in the EV Industry.

Wrong, Tesla is by far the largest EV maker in 2019 and certainly not a small player.



What about well to wheel efficiency of ICE cars.

[akhilesh]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

There are plenty of losses from power generation to transmission, so fossil fuel powered electric cars are not doing anyone a favor.

And even then it is more efficient. If you are using Tesla with roof top solar power or renewable energy, where most advanced economies are moving to, it is one of the greenest ways to get around except may be a bicycle. I am sure you cannot solar charge a combustion engine car and the petroleum needs to be extracted from the ground and then transported around.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Advantage of Taycan is that , now you can buy an electric Porsche!

Yes if your name is Bill Gates. The most expensive Tesla Model S is $119k while the cheapest Taycan is $155k. Tesla Model 3 starts around $33k and even the standard plus beats the Porsche hollow when it comes to range (EPA numbers).

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Tesla is a small player in comparison to BYD, the world`s largest player in the EV Industry. Tesla manages to get a lot of attention, however as time goes by traditional car makers will expand their electric portfolio. The electric only startups may as well fold into some of these conglomerates at some point of time.

And BMW sales are tiny compared to Toyota? Whats the point? I think there is no argument as to which company is the largest EV car makers in the world and the one best placed to advantage of the electric car revolution that they themselves started. Tesla sold more cars in 2019 than the prior two years combined and that is with only one factory. With the Chinese factory starting production very shortly and Model Y launch on the horizon, things can only go up. Look at what happened to the sales of BMW 3 Series in USA and Tesla is largely the maker responsible for it.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

BYD supplied a few buses to Bangalore Transport Corporation many years back (2014) for testing. I`m guessing ROI was poor and it was dropped later.

And that should tell you that not all vehicles powered by a battery and an electric motor are the same.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Wrong, Tesla is by far the largest EV maker in 2019 and certainly not a small player.

What about well to wheel efficiency of ICE cars.

EVs in general, not cars in particular, they make all kinds of machines from cars to buses to trucks and electric bikes too and then batteries as well for EVs of other companies. BYD has been making these things for a while, not only in 2019 and therefore the largest player.

There is no question about EVs being better in terms of efficiency, however when coupled with fossil fuel derived power and losses during transmission and then charging etc we are ending up with the same numbers. Lets not forget carbon emissions are not just tail pipe, if the EV itself is more energy intensive to make and then you run it on fossil fuel derived power...err you see where this is going.

Ideal world is when your solar panel charges the EV and off you go! But wait a minute - Can we replace out alto with a similarly priced and capable EV? The energy used during manufacturing these machines also matter, if it costs more, chances are they are more energy intensive to make. If an Alto is 100% localized in manufacturing, the EV version would probably need batteries made by BYD in China and then shipped across to India, not ideal.

My point being is that EVs make sense from a performance perspective for now and not from an environmentally friendly perspective.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

EVs in general, not cars in particular, they make all kinds of machines from cars to buses to trucks and electric bikes too and then batteries as well for EVs of other companies. BYD has been making these things for a while, not only in 2019 and therefore the largest player.

There is no question about EVs being better in terms of efficiency, however when coupled with fossil fuel derived power and losses during transmission and then charging etc we are ending up with the same numbers. Lets not forget carbon emissions are not just tail pipe, if the EV itself is more energy intensive to make and then you run it on fossil fuel derived power...err you see where this is going.

Ideal world is when your solar panel charges the EV and off you go! But wait a minute - Can we replace out alto with a similarly priced and capable EV? The energy used during manufacturing these machines also matter, if it costs more, chances are they are more energy intensive to make. If an Alto is 100% localized in manufacturing, the EV version would probably need batteries made by BYD in China and then shipped across to India, not ideal.

My point being is that EVs make sense from a performance perspective for now and not from an environmentally friendly perspective.

May be but if you see the 2019 figures, Tesla has a huge lead and their projection for 2020 is 500k with their Shanghai plant adding to the numbers. Eventually in 2020 Tesla will cross BYD, and Tesla being a startup we should not compare total figures. And Tesla does not manufacture Buses or trucks for now to even compare.

I understand the EV manufacture causes more pollution but typically after few thousand kms (according to a recent tweet by Robert Lewellyn @ 25k kms) the EV and ICE over all emissions are same, after which the EV is more efficient to run.

The point is, we cannot wait for the ideal world start with what we have and remove the inefficiencies as we move,as stated by you bring the battery manufacturing to India, reduce cobalt in battery(by the way cobalt is also used in refining petroleum products), renewable energy(which is increasing day by day).

There will be a day when your 2020 bought EV runs on 100% renewable energy in the future, try that with ICE.

[mohanphadnis]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Lets not forget carbon emissions are not just tail pipe, if the EV itself is more energy intensive to make and then you run it on fossil fuel derived power...err you see where this is going.

I agree that carbon emissions are not just tailpipe emissions, one should also calculate the carbon emissions made to extract crude, transport it to refinery, then refine it, then transport it to a pump and then actually pump it in fuel tank .
If one starts tacking these to the tailpipe bill, there is no contest.

I would say, the battle of emissions was lost the day EV1 was introduced, battle of emotions though, rages on unabated.

[akhilesh]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

EVs in general, not cars in particular, they make all kinds of machines from cars to buses to trucks and electric bikes too and then batteries as well for EVs of other companies. BYD has been making these things for a while, not only in 2019 and therefore the largest player.

I am not sure what you read, where you read and what is your expectation from a car. More reading here. Hint: Its not the case. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/10...ev-domination/

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

There is no question about EVs being better in terms of efficiency, however when coupled with fossil fuel derived power and losses during transmission and then charging etc we are ending up with the same numbers. Lets not forget carbon emissions are not just tail pipe, if the EV itself is more energy intensive to make and then you run it on fossil fuel derived power...err you see where this is going.

Again what you are offering is your personal opinion supported by nothing.
Posting verbatim from the article "To debut next month, the Model Y is officially estimated to run for an average 315 miles on a charge and achieve a best-in-class combined city/highway 121 MPGe (the equivalent to miles per gallon in a fossil-fuel car)."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz.../#52403489779d

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Ideal world is when your solar panel charges the EV and off you go! But wait a minute - Can we replace out alto with a similarly priced and capable EV? The energy used during manufacturing these machines also matter, if it costs more, chances are they are more energy intensive to make. If an Alto is 100% localized in manufacturing, the EV version would probably need batteries made by BYD in China and then shipped across to India, not ideal.

Again you are just picking up a new argument when the last one you made did not stand. From not being as efficient to not being the largest manufacturer to now theorising whether we can replace an Alto with a comparable electric car! Not only that, you have now changed the whole context of your argument to just India. The automotive world does not revolve around an Alto. The largest selling car in US by far is the Toyota Camry and the base Model 3 is priced very close to it. If I was Elon Musk, I would do that too. The petrol you buy does not come from India either.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

My point being is that EVs make sense from a performance perspective for now and not from an environmentally friendly perspective.

Again a blanket statement based of a personal opinion.

[CarManMotorcycl]

I think we are looking too much between the lines! If you go through Elon Musks twitter a/c you'll realise that this is not new and he is a human just like everyone of us. Not every known personality should be professional everytime! Sometimes you got to be cool and one thing is he is a very well known and respected among the young people, yes me included. He is a breath of fresh air among these boring famous personalities who are always professional and act like robots. Please note, this is not a dig at Bill Gates at all and i have immense respect for him.

Bill Gates has picked the right choice as i am sure he wanted something which is not seen at every corner in America and he is a known Porsche enthusiast so it was not really surprising that he bought a Taycan over a Tesla Model S or something.