[RYP]

All Geniuses and visionaries are criticized in their times, we all accept them only in retrospect. Elon falls rightly in this category, what he's done is extraordinary and nothing like anything. Tesla sells the car (D2C btw) and also the fuel (Superchargers, anyone?), wall street realized this much later and its stocks prices are at an astronomical high

Elon is that mad Scientist who's damn good in Economics as well. The position he's in now can be compared to Steve Jobs of late 1990's and early 2000's. 10 out of 10 here in this forum will call out and have an opinion, if the next Swift or Innova come with a 12L fuel tank. But Elon can't on the Taycan? oh, Come on guys.

Nothing to take away from the Heritage of Porsche, but it's not an Apple's to Apple's comparison to compare it with Tesla. It's the equivalent of comparing Henry Ford and his Ford Model A to an ICE Engine car built by a Horse Carriage Company of 1900's with a storied 'Heritage'. Yes, both ferry people around but not exactly the same.

What makes an Automaker a Automaker? the Badge on front? Alloy wheel design? Fancy marketing? Nope, The Power-train is all there is! And the legacy automakers are stuck in the glories of the past and Tesla is leading the way.

[laser2707]

Bill Gates is perfectly within his right to buy the Taycan over Tesla. It's his money hence his choice.

My take on Musk's statement is - he probably believes in the adage "Negative publicity is also publicity". What should have been Porsche's moment in the sun has now been turned into a Musk vs. Gates spat. A very Old vs. New techie kind of spat.

Another example of this is the viral window breaking of the Tesla Cyber Truck. I still suspect the glass was meant to break deliberately. It's his way of grabbing attention & his fanboys just love it.

[v1p3r]

Hilarious how people talk about 'respect' for Bill Gates. I love the guy personally and think he's a rockstar, but let's not forget he's also the CEO that used to throw things at people and verbally abuse his employees in public. And of course there was repeated abuse of power, from early copyright infringement to DoJ antitrust investigations.

He's a known Porschephile, having waited years with his 959 in a bonded warehouse until he got the law changed to suit his needs. Also, not his first EV - he has a retrofitted 356 spider with an EV drivetrain.

Musk is, well, Musk. He's well aware that Twitter works for him on a different level, so he'll say what he wants. Some of it is stupid, like calling the diver a pedo, while some is stage-managed brilliance. This is somewhere in between. Let's not forget that he runs very different businesses at the same time, all hands-on. The only comparison I can think of is Mukesh Ambani.

Also, Gates began saving the world in 2008 at 52. Musk began at 30 in 2001. That should put things in perspective. I honestly don't think Gates is thinking as much of the tweet as the rest of the world is.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

..DoJ antitrust investigations.

Also, Gates began saving the world in 2008 at 52. Musk began at 30 in 2001. That should put things in perspective. I honestly don't think Gates is thinking as much of the tweet as the rest of the world is.

Those investigations were shakedowns, to force Microsoft to spend on lobbying.

Tesla is a car company, saving the world is incidental, not the reason for its existence, that would be the perspective. Musk openly hates public transport and urban living, that aligns well with being an environmentalist. Saving the world with expensive personal transport and urban sprawl. The fawning press he gets is unbelievable. I'm not against EVs but this saving the world story is cringe.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

My point being is that EVs make sense from a performance perspective for now and not from an environmentally friendly perspective.

Originally Posted by akhilesh

Again a blanket statement based of a personal opinion.

I think it is more than a personal opinion. It is to simple to make a blanket statement such as EVs are better for the environment. Although, truth be told, you won’t find much opposition to that statement, getting the facts rights about what the real environmental impact is, be it positive or negative, is very complex.

I think everybody would agree, that if we could, for sake of argument, overnight, turn all of Delhi’s IC vehicles into EV vehicles, the air in Delhi would improve considerably. However, if all that power, needed to recharge all those batteries, is generated by power station on the outside of Delhi, fired by coal, the nett effect on a larger geographical area would not necessarily be positive at all.

If you take a country such as Norway, who are well on their way on being completely emission free in power generation, introducing EVs makes a lot of sense from a total environmental point of view (excluding global impacts on Norway obviously)

There is also the (endless) debate about how much impact a car has from production to end of life and disposal. Producing a car still takes a lot of energy and resources. Production of batteries can and is in some well published cases has a huge impact on the local environment. Aside, from some more ethical, moral and social issues, child labour, poor OHS etc.

There are also other factors to be taken into consideration. One of the big problems with cars, aside from carbon related emissions is they create a lot of dust. Two sources, brakes and tyres. EV cars tend to be heavier, so introducing EV is very unlikely to bring down the amount of dust particles.

On a slightly different note, but still on topic:
Some years ago I had the pleasure of spending several weeks at the Stanford University in Palo Alto. Elon visited the campus and was interviewed in the the big Stanford auditorium. Later that week, our little group of 10 met with him as well.

I would be the first one to agree that Elon has accomplished some extraordinary things. This is not a guy who is a great presenter/talker though. I was expecting someone who would be articulate, with a truly visionary story, told in a unique way. He is not very good in front of a crowd, not particularly impressive even in smaller groups. From that point of view both in the interview and in our meeting he left me seriously underwhelmed. Fair enough, his actions and accomplishment speak much louder than his words.

Of course, all the Stanford students start hyperventilating at the mere mention of Elon. Some told me they did not sleep for a week, because Elon was coming to campus. Not sure if Gates would have had that effect. But hey, he has got a cool Porsche. If I wanted to talk cars, I would probably get on better with Gates then with Musk.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Those investigations were shakedowns, to force Microsoft to spend on lobbying.

Tesla is a car company, saving the world is incidental, not the reason for its existence, that would be the perspective. Musk openly hates public transport and urban living, that aligns well with being an environmentalist. Saving the world with expensive personal transport and urban sprawl. The fawning press he gets is unbelievable. I'm not against EVs but this saving the world story is cringe.

I agree, but Bill through the BMGF is being presented as a saviour to the world. All he's really done is aggregated office productivity software. Any business is run for profit, but Elon's entire life thesis over the last few years seems to be the improvement of mankind's lot in life.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I think everybody would agree, that if we could, for sake of argument, overnight, turn all of Delhi’s IC vehicles into EV vehicles, the air in Delhi would improve considerably. However, if all that power, needed to recharge all those batteries, is generated by power station on the outside of Delhi, fired by coal, the nett effect on a larger geographical area would not necessarily be positive at all.
...
...

There are also other factors to be taken into consideration. One of the big problems with cars, aside from carbon related emissions is they create a lot of dust. Two sources, brakes and tyres. EV cars tend to be heavier, so introducing EV is very unlikely to bring down the amount of dust particles.

Delhi's vehicles count for about 10% of its pollution emissions inventory, just by the way. And on the second count, I'm sorry but that is just incorrect. Nearly all of the particulate emissions that are unhealthy / dangerous are a result of combustion, which will go away if EVs take over. I do this - emissions inventory etc - for a living so I've tracked it pretty closely.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But hey, he has got a cool Porsche. If I wanted to talk cars, I would probably get on better with Gates then with Musk.

Musk's car history includes an E Type, an old BMW he fixed up himself, a Hamann M5 and a daily driven Mclaren F1 that he famously crashed on the way to a meeting.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Delhi's vehicles count for about 10% of its pollution emissions inventory, just by the way. And on the second count, I'm sorry but that is just incorrect. Nearly all of the particulate emissions that are unhealthy / dangerous are a result of combustion, which will go away if EVs take over. I do this - emissions inventory etc - for a living so I've tracked it pretty closely.

I am not expert, but what about these reports:

A few quotes:

Switching to electric vehicles will not eliminate pollution, according to a new report, which raises concerns over the particulate matter (PM) found in dust created by tyre and brake wear.

Increasing amounts of wear-particles have been found in new research from King’s College London. Scientists tracked air pollution alongside 65 roads for ten years. The researchers found some roads where the air pollution benefits from improvements in diesel exhausts were outweighed by increases in particles that come from the wear of tyres, brakes and the road. This was mainly on outer London roads that had increasing numbers of heavy good vehicles.

Electric cars WON'T end air pollution: Government warns that brake dust and tyre particles from all vehicles could soon 'have a greater public health impact than exhaust fumes'
Brake and tyre wear contributes as much as 28% of total microplastic pollution
Non-exhaust emissions release dangerous particulates, contributing to deaths
Air Quality Expert Group recommending lowering the volume of traffic on ro

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pollutionwatch

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48944561

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-e...llution&curl=1

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ticulates.html

https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/d...eset_Final.pdf

I had a look at some of the underlying research.

https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/d...eset_Final.pdf

You tell me, you are the expert. Is this all fake news then? How should we interpret this versus your statement it is incorrect? Please elaborate, with as much technical detail / facts as you can. I am just a layman, but I would love to hear detailled arguments and facts that throw a different light on this.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Musk's car history includes an E Type, an old BMW he fixed up himself, a Hamann M5 and a daily driven Mclaren F1 that he famously crashed on the way to a meeting.

It has more to do with the personality than with the car history. I have met Gates too, a long time ago. A very amicable, well spoken guy with whom you could have an intelligent conversation about any topics under the sun. Not saying Musk is not intelligent, but his social and verbal skills could do with some serious overhaul.

Jeroen

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not expert, but what about these reports:

A few quotes:







https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pollutionwatch

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48944561

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-e...llution&curl=1

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ticulates.html

I had a look at some of the underlying research. You tell me, you are the expert. Is this all fake news then? How should we interpret this versus your statement it is incorrect? Please elaborate, with as much technical detail / facts as you can. I am just a layman, but I would love to hear detailled arguments and facts that throw a different light on this.

So the issue is that all air pollution data tends to be compromised, which is a topic that will take two days to cover. I'd be happy to take this offline, or we'll both end up boring every one to tears. Also, you'll notice that the Guardian says things like "new cars have power windows and air conditioning". I struggle to think of a car sold since the 90s that has neither. This data and interpretation is either terribly dated or generally inadmissible. I'll be happy to share stuff over PM. Additionally, good EVs have massively reduced brake wear because of regen.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It has more to do with the personality than with the car history. I have met Gates too, a long time ago. A very amicable, well spoken guy with whom you could have an intelligent conversation about any topics under the sun. Not saying Musk is not intelligent, but his social and verbal skills could do with some serious overhaul.

Jeroen

Ah yes. If born of experience, you are obviously privy to better information. Gates has always been chatty and pleasant, and I envy you for having the opportunity to meet him. Musk is more, millennial, if that's a thing. Thankfully neither are as bad as Zuckerberg.

[DrCar]

A quick Google search reveals that Tesla uses components from Panasonic and softwares from Mobile eye, an Isreal based company.
So, nowhere in the development did Tesla involved Microsoft, a relative giant in software industries.

Tesla themselves doesn't want something from Microsoft whose softwares they feel are not upto the mark for their products and Bill Gates have graciously accepted it without ever commenting about them.

Then what is your problem Mr. Musk if Bill Gates himself wants the best product available currently?

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You tell me, you are the expert. Is this all fake news then?
Jeroen

Search bias?

May be they are fake? There are many fake researches and lobbies working to delay the EV revolution. We can understand what all trillion dollar industries working on these fake researches.

See all these topics never discussed before EVs started.

Child labour - Because cobalt produced from Congo by child labour, but the oil refiners were using cobalt for refining oil.

Brake dust - Do ICE do not produce brake dust, if anything brake dust decreases from EVs because of regen.

Tyre dust - Agreed as EV are heavy.

Pollution at power plant: Evs move pollution to the source, but as we move along the renewable path we keep reducing the dependence of coal and gas for power generation. How many 100's of GW renewable energy coming online each year.

We are not converting all the cars in delhi overnight, India has barely started adopting EVs. By say 2025 we may have good amount of solar generation and atleast 10 ev options.

[ds.raikkonen]

Tesla has the advantage when it comes to ’cost per mile of range’, especially with the incredible Model 3 (though obviously Bill Gates is a Model X or Roadster person or perhaps the Evija or Battista once they’re launched!).

For comparison, the e-Golf has CMPoR similar to the Model X and about a third of the range! They had been using the Panasonic 18650 cells which will now be replaced with the 2170s. Major difference from other EVs also being that their cathode is made from Ni-Co-Al and not Ni-Mn-Co which has higher specific energy.

It’s just Elon Musk that ruins everything for me about the brand. I hope VW can give them a run for their money, obviously it will take at least 5 years from now. The ID cars are their best bet to take on Tesla.

Meanwhile, the Mustang Mach-E too is gearing up for a fight!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

So the issue is that all air pollution data tends to be compromised, which is a topic that will take two days to cover. I'd be happy to take this offline, or we'll both end up boring every one to tears. .

One thing I have seen/noticed that we tend to have much more data and for much longer on emission then we have on these so called NEE (Non Exhaust Emission). Some of it appears to down to definitions.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Search bias?

May be they are fake?

No, definitely not fake news. The report I quoted:

https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/d...eset_Final.pdf

Towards the end/summary:

A key feature of UK policy is the encouragement of electric vehicles and the key issue here is how regenerative braking and the changing mass of vehicles will affect NEE. There is considerable uncertainty on this and two points are important. The relative contribution of non- exhaust particle emissions from a battery electric vehicle relative to an equivalent internal combustion engine vehicle is critically dependent upon whether increased road dust resuspension and tyre/road surface wear due to a higher vehicle mass exceed both the amount of exhaust emissions which are no longer present and reductions in brake wear particles due to regenerative braking in electric vehicles.

n the other hand, Timmers and Achten (2016) report that the lower energy storage density of electric batteries compared with liquid fuels contribute to a ~24% increase in mass of electric vehicles compared with equivalent conventional vehicles, although mass increases between conventional and hybrid or electric model equivalents can be smaller or greater than this Kollamthodi et al. (2015). This increases the tyre wear, brake wear and resuspended particulate matter emissions leading to
69
their assessment of only a 1-3% reduction in PM2.5 emissions from electric vehicles when compared to conventional powertrains. However, there is a strong incentive for manufacturers to continue to reduce overall electric vehicle mass in order to improve range. Because of this, it would seem likely that the general move to electric vehicles and regenerative braking will lead to an overall reduction in NEE.

This is a well established research group. You should read it, because it does provide a lot of insights into this area. And it does talk about the data integrity, definitions and so forth. This is on the (political) agenda of most western countries these days. Policies are being debated. One of the problems everywhere is there are few, if any specific regulations regarding NEE.

Enough off topic though, so back to nerdy Musk and cool Gates

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Agree! I am not a real Porsche enthusiast, but there is no denying they have a very impressive heritage and the level of engineering that goes into their cars is phenomenal. I have never really looked at Porsches in the sense of potential owning one. But I do admire them. However, I must admit I really like the new Panamera Sport Turismo.

Jeroen

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Agree! I am not a real Porsche enthusiast, but there is no denying they have a very impressive heritage and the level of engineering that goes into their cars is phenomenal. I have never really looked at Porsches in the sense of potential owning one. But I do admire them. However, I must admit I really like the new Panamera Sport Turismo.

Whereas some of the Tesla technology is cutting edge (see our other thread on how far ahead they are) the total Tesla package, irrespective of model, if I can call it that, simply does not float my boat.

Jeroen

As a World War 2 history buff, when you said heritage, my mind only flashed to their very strong pro Nazi ties.Ferry Porsche (the designer of the Beetle) was very close to Hitler, Porsche employed forced labourers, Polish POW's from concentration camps in their factories. Still not as bad as the likes of Siemens who had and ran a plant right inside the Auschwitz death camp but still.

What is interesting is, most of these large German companies in the 70's funded studies on their Nazi links and came clean on them but Porsche has and continues to deny its Nazi links.

Post the fall of Germany, a French automaker (Citroen I think, don't remember for sure) asked Ferdinand Porsche to come to France and design a French Beetle but Peugeot (the guy, not the company) saw a massive threat and had Ferdinand deemed a war criminal and he was even briefly arrested...now imagine a French version of the Beetle running around Europe...VW's money maker in the 50's and 60's would have been DoA.

Just some history lessons

[SKC-auto]

"whether increased road dust resuspension and tyre/road surface wear due to a higher vehicle mass exceed both the amount of exhaust emissions which are no longer present and reductions in brake wear particles due to regenerative braking in electric vehicles."

From what I understand the report was saying unlike ICE vehicles EVs have more road dust due to tyre/road surface wear and reductions in emissions and brake dust.

For the second report I do not understand how brake dust increases for EVs when people reporting brake pad usage for more than a 1 lakh kms from their EVs.

For the topic, I certainly do not agree with Elon in this case.

[Romeo_Mike]

I have been rolling on the floor laughing. Did he expect Bill to buy a model S instead?

Dude its what people with loads of money do! They buy Porsches!! Yes, model S might be very good as an EV. But even in its 2019 avatar, its an M850 of EVs at best, whereas we might very well call the Taycan the 911 of EVs! Just having the same 0-60 time doesn't make a Tesla a natural substitute for a Porsche. No need to take offence