[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by navrddy

Yeah. List can be endless. Known devil is better than unknown angel.
How many of us statistically were affected by fuel shortages.
How many of us statistically are affected by lack of electric supply , charging stations.
Which user would like to wait for 30 to 40 mins fast charging when on highway. People get pissed off, when toll booths sometimes malfunction to waste even 5-10 times of travelling time.
Petroleum industry is well estsblished, learnt all wrong-doing hardway to have stable process to extract fuel.
There is no way one can use electric car, unless battery density , charging time and recycling topics are taken care to march combustion engines times.
Just because I am doing it differently(electric mobility), does not mean it is sense full approach..
Let industry demonstrate to produce capble products(electric mobility), then automatically we will have customers buying it.

There is no way anyone can use an EV? Millions around the world are using it happily including myself. You don't take daily long trips, do you? When on a trip of more than 200kms, don't you need to have lunch or dinner, a cup of tea or coffee, use the toilet etc? It would take at least 45 minutes to go to a restaurant, order, let the food arrive, eat, pay the bill, check your phone or God forbid, relax and chat a bit. Maybe walk around the garden and stretch your legs. That is more than enough time to charge your EV. A small delay a couple of times a year is a small price to pay for the convenience, fun, monetary savings and environmental benefits of having an EV. Planning where to charge, you ask? We all charge at home most of the time. No need to even spend 15 minutes driving to a petrol station. We can also charge at a hotel, restaurant, friend's home and so on. There is electricity everywhere. With thousands of fast chargers around there is no issue in travelling anywhere except really remote areas. Customers are buying them. 6% of Tata sales are now EVs. More than 30% sales in the UK are EVs now. In some countries it is more than 50%.

[navrddy]

I Agree from first world perspective, where everything is possible. Think of situation in India, I hope we are discussing topics related to situation in India.
Where we don't even have 100% assured quality electricity supply at major cities, leave apart small towns, villages, highway stations.

What works in developed nations, does not work in developing countries. For time-being looks like EV's are for privileged customers who want to show off that they are environmentally consciousness, even it does not mean anything actually. Just to be socially hip. Now Lets come to reality, nobody stops every 30-45 mins(assuming we have fast charger) every 200-300 km, also what if food quality is pathetic in a restaurant where Fast charger is present and how many fast chargers can be installed on mass scale at a single place, where food is good. Usually food is good only a few rest places. Either we have to sacrifice on lot of other convenient topics to just drive an EV.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by navrddy

How many of us statistically were affected by fuel shortages.

Petroleum industry is well estsblished, learnt all wrong-doing hardway to have stable process to extract fuel.

Let industry demonstrate to produce capble products(electric mobility), then automatically we will have customers buying it.

You are comparing a 100year old established industry with a 10year old technology whose uptake has started just 3-4years back(even in richer countries). So in 1921, there were fuel shortages, cars cannot be used beyond certain limits and roads, horses were still better than cars for road trips.

Yet the stable process has lots of price fluctuations, wars going on to secure the resources, cartelization.

Yes, let the industry produce capable products, up to the price point of 20 lakhs(very capable cars at 15lakhs price point already available in China) electric cars have already demonstrated they are more capable than ICE cars.

Originally Posted by navrddy

For time-being looks like EV's are for privileged customers who want to show off that they are environmentally consciousness, even it does not mean anything actually. Just to be socially hip. Now Lets come to reality, nobody stops every 30-45 mins(assuming we have fast charger) every 200-300 km.

You call it "show off", I call it early adopter. To the chicken and egg problem, which has to come first the charging infra or the cars, the early adopters make the charging infrastructure possible, for you it may not mean anything, but it means a lot for the air quality on the planet and particularly in the city.

I don't know what reality you are talking, but my personal experience, and numerous travel reports on Team Bhp tell a different story. Please let us know how do you plan your road trips.

This is what most people do:
Bangalore - Tirupati 250km - 1 stop
Bangalore - Kodaikanal/Madurai 500km - 2 stop
Bangalore - Hyderabad 600km - 2 stop
Bangalore - Chikmagalur 350km - 1 stop

Once EVs are the major vehicle type, every restaurant will have the charging infra else they lose customers. BTW, I do not mind to eat not so tasty food once or twice a year if the cost of the journey is halved and I know it's environmentally better.

[govigov]

Originally Posted by DeKay

This aforementioned friend of mine that just got the Nexon has a Honda City and a Superb, yet all 3 people in his family unanimously agree that the Nexon EV is the most refined vehicle they own. They don't care about the range (as long as it delivers around 200km in the city) and the break even point vis-à-vis Nexon's Petrol counterpart. So yes, it is absolutely worth foregoing "freedom of mobility" because they value refinement more.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to what your use case for the vehicle is. Let the market decide what they want out of their vehicle. Not everyone's buying EVs just to save money.

Hello DeKay,

I agree on the refinement of the EV, EVs are currently regulated to house holds which can accommodate multiple cars. EV with its current range is still unpractical for a single car house hold looking to switch to an EV. If they are switching, they have to know that their longer trips are to be switched to a rental, which could work out for some.

Regarding your point about finance and money, while EV does help to bring down the costs, the Income Tax section 80EEB gives a 1.5L tax deductible on the interest component. Even though this maybe useful for the kinara stores doing its 2 wheeler delivery, it clearly intended as a motivating factor for wider adoption of EVs. With its current range, not everyone can fit into the target audience that are intended to buy an EV for the sole purpose to save the money.

I would love to move to an EV as a single car garage, if the EV can give a healthy 350-400 km range.

That being said, I guess most folks who own BS4 diesels will be holding on to their dear cars for a lot longer than expected just because of the lack of VFM options to consider as an upgrade.

PS: I see a lot of nexon EVs on the road, (like almost everyday) and most of them are clearly doctor owned, used for office-home and city runs. Only once did I see an EV on a long distance highway run away from its home registration and I wish I spoke to the guy on how he did that.

[navrddy]

Well in 1921, combustion engines became famous because it offered significant advantage over Horse powered carriages mainly speed, mobility freedom not dependent on animals availability and unlimited range based on availability of fuel.
Now you tell me, what EV offers over combustion engine except claiming to be silent drive and so called environmentally friendly option, which it self is not clear.
So now in EV, you are polluting somewhere instead of tailpipe, Environmental damage is anyway done, only that we don't realize that in EV in front of your eyes.
Lets not forget, child labor and environmental disturbing practices used in mining of rare earth elements used in batteries. Nobody knows, about lifecycle recycle-ability of EV's, how batteries once depleted are to be disposed off. At-least in Combustion engines, once your scrap, we will end up in plastic, metal (most part) and maybe very small elements of rare elements used in catalytic convertors.
One thing i don't understand, as a customer why should i spend money in building up infrastructure considering chicken and egg story. Why should i fore-goo my freedom of mobility?

Regarding charging infrastructure build-up, lets take example how many years did we take to have good quality modern fuel stations?.We can take same time approximation for build-up of good charging stations. Regarding on the topic of good restaurants, why they should setup infrastructure(expensive fast DC chargers), to cater to customers.

To me the world of EV's is of: Benefits which are not real, consists of lots of ifs and buts.

Maybe EV's are only good of city use now. Majority of us dont have luxury of having 2/3 vehicles at home like EV for city, Combustion engine for long drives.
Regarding rental for long drives: Generally in our country, we have long list of bad maintained rental cars available for all of us to drive.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

You are comparing a 100year old established industry with a 10year old technology whose uptake has started just 3-4years back(even in richer countries). So in 1921, there were fuel shortages, cars cannot be used beyond certain limits and roads, horses were still better than cars for road trips.

Yet the stable process has lots of price fluctuations, wars going on to secure the resources, cartelization.

Yes, let the industry produce capable products, up to the price point of 20 lakhs(very capable cars at 15lakhs price point already available in China) electric cars have already demonstrated they are more capable than ICE cars.


You call it "show off", I call it early adopter. To the chicken and egg problem, which has to come first the charging infra or the cars, the early adopters make the charging infrastructure possible, for you it may not mean anything, but it means a lot for the air quality on the planet and particularly in the city.

I don't know what reality you are talking, but my personal experience, and numerous travel reports on Team Bhp tell a different story. Please let us know how do you plan your road trips.

This is what most people do:
Bangalore - Tirupati 250km - 1 stop
Bangalore - Kodaikanal/Madurai 500km - 2 stop
Bangalore - Hyderabad 600km - 2 stop
Bangalore - Chikmagalur 350km - 1 stop

Once EVs are the major vehicle type, every restaurant will have the charging infra else they lose customers. BTW, I do not mind to eat not so tasty food once or twice a year if the cost of the journey is halved and I know it's environmentally better.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by navrddy

Now you tell me, what EV offers over combustion engine except claiming to be silent drive and so called environmentally friendly option, which it self is not clear.

Lets not forget, child labor and environmental disturbing practices used in mining of rare earth elements used in batteries. Nobody knows, about lifecycle recycle-ability of EV's, how batteries once depleted are to be disposed off. At-least in Combustion engines, once your scrap, we will end up in plastic, metal (most part) and maybe very small elements of rare elements used in catalytic convertors.

Environment benefits is significant part, if you haven't realized the damage we have already done. Your arguments are not new, the same script followed by oil industry, each and everything is debunked already, I don't want to repeat the same, the govts across the world understand the advantages of EVs, and are making significant investments.

There are no rare earth materials used in a battery. The child labour is a concern for cobalt mining in DRC, did you know that cobalt is used in oil refining, there is significant research on removing cobalt in batteries, LFP batteries do not contain cobalt, so cars like Nexon EV do not have cobalt.

Again you say nobody knows about battery recycling, the people who know how to recycle batteries, battery companies & governments know how to recycle. Tesla already extracts 92% of their battery materials today.

One thing i don't understand, as a customer why should i spend money in building up infrastructure considering chicken and egg story. Why should i fore-goo my freedom of mobility?

Because you are part of this one world, and because we care for it. I don't know what freedom of mobility you are sacrificing, I gave you examples of how you can travel in the same time as ICE cars, talking about missing tasty food are silly arguments for a serious issue. If you are frequent road traveller, wait for few more years until the infra is setup. I did not say you should pay for the infra, with more EVs on the road, more infrastructure will be built, no one builds more infra without the cars.

So now in EV, you are polluting somewhere instead of tailpipe, Environmental damage is anyway done, only that we don't realize that in EV in front of your eyes.

Do you mean to say tailpipe is the only pollution. See the below informative video, explains why EVs are significantly better than ICE.

https://youtu.be/mk-LnUYEXuM

Maybe EV's are only good of city use now. Majority of us dont have luxury of having 2/3 vehicles at home like EV for city, Combustion engine for long drives.
Regarding rental for long drives: Generally in our country, we have long list of bad maintained rental cars available for all of us to drive.

No need of rental cars, the MG ZS and Kona are good cars for long range once we have charging stations every 50kms. Drive for 300kms, take a break of 30-45mins and drive for another 300kms, everything can happen if you plan accordingly. EVs at cheaper price point will happen in just 5 years.

[navrddy]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Because you are part of this one world, and because we care for it. I don't know what freedom of mobility you are sacrificing, I gave you examples of how you can travel in the same time as ICE cars, talking about missing tasty food are silly arguments for a serious issue. If you are frequent road traveller, wait for few more years until the infra is setup. I did not say you should pay for the infra, with more EVs on the road, more infrastructure will be built, no one builds more infra without the cars.


Do you mean to say tailpipe is the only pollution. See the below informative video, explains why EVs are significantly better than ICE.

https://Youtu.be/mk-LnUYEXuM


No need of rental cars, the MG ZS and Kona are good cars for long range once we have charging stations every 50kms. Drive for 300kms, take a break of 30-45mins and drive for another 300kms, everything can happen if you plan accordingly. EVs at cheaper price point will happen in just 5 years.

These are practical Arguments, I never represent any Industry or Cartel. It is unfortunate whatever views presented are mostly tagged as "some industry said like this".

There is no clear understanding or statement or study stating that Electric mobility takes care of environment better than Combustion counterparts, considering complete lifecycle of vehicle from manufacturing till end of life (inclusive of recycling), what we are seeing is that there is lobby pushing for electrification worldwide (not india) to get feel of better environment by only reducing tail pipe emissions.

How many of us can afford Kona or MG,?. "Very few social and environmentally feel good perceived people"

As a end user, until product is matured why i should be forced to have one.
But you see worldwide govts. are forcing / enforcing phaseout of combustion engines, If this is not forcing. what is.

Finally, we can have 100 justifications to have EV or not have EV. It is upto practicality and end user to decide to have or not have. I just highlighted some not to buy though.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by navrddy

These are practical Arguments, I never represent any Industry or Cartel. It is unfortunate whatever views presented are mostly tagged as "some industry said like this".

There is no clear understanding or statement or study stating that Electric mobility takes care of environment better than Combustion counterparts, considering complete lifecycle of vehicle from manufacturing till end of life (inclusive of recycling), what we are seeing is that there is lobby pushing for electrification worldwide (not india) to get feel of better environment by only reducing tail pipe emissions.

I never said you represent a lobby, I also do not represent any lobby, did you search for any study about the comparison or is it your assumption that such a study did not exist. Is there a bigger lobby than the oil lobby, which contributes significantly for having wars to secure the resource. I am a proponent of carbon tax for everyone including EVs, ICE cars, electricity, petrol, refining, mining.

How many of us can afford Kona or MG,?. "Very few social and environmentally feel good perceived people"

As a end user, until product is matured why i should be forced to have one.
But you see worldwide govts. are forcing / enforcing phaseout of combustion engines, If this is not forcing. what is.

There's a significant number of people who cannot afford a Kona, they can wait until they find an EV in their price range. I don't know who is forcing you, I am not forced into buying an EV. Even an Alto is out of reach for many in India, and the car users do not have the right to spoil the air for the poor.

Finally, we can have 100 justifications to have EV or not have EV. It is upto practicality and end user to decide to have or not have. I just highlighted some not to buy though.

Highlighting is not a problem, when you use the words 'show off', "Very few social and environmentally feel good perceived people", 'no one understands recycling', 'no comparison study exists', tells a different story as if the world is spending billions on something which they don't understand.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by navrddy

I Agree from first world perspective, where everything is possible. Think of situation in India, I hope we are discussing topics related to situation in India.
Where we don't even have 100% assured quality electricity supply at major cities, leave apart small towns, villages, highway stations.

What works in developed nations, does not work in developing countries. For time-being looks like EV's are for privileged customers who want to show off that they are environmentally consciousness, even it does not mean anything actually. Just to be socially hip. Now Lets come to reality, nobody stops every 30-45 mins(assuming we have fast charger) every 200-300 km, also what if food quality is pathetic in a restaurant where Fast charger is present and how many fast chargers can be installed on mass scale at a single place, where food is good. Usually food is good only a few rest places. Either we have to sacrifice on lot of other convenient topics to just drive an EV.

I live in Delhi NCR where we have very reliable 24 hour power supply with practically zero power cuts. The situation is similar in most urban and semi urban areas. In any case our building has full generator backup where ACs can be used and an EV charged as well if needed. No, it won’t bother me at all as the generator would run anyway regardless of whether I charge my EV or not. Even Secondly, most out of town trips are around 200 to 400 kms. Practically everyone stops for lunch, tea or coffee. At least I do, regardless of what type of car I am driving. If the food is bad at the charger, I have no issue having a tea and eating elsewhere. A stop of 30 minutes or 1 hour once every few months is no problem, whatsoever if I can enjoy my EV and save money.

Originally Posted by govigov

Hello DeKay,

I agree on the refinement of the EV, EVs are currently regulated to house holds which can accommodate multiple cars. EV with its current range is still unpractical for a single car house hold looking to switch to an EV. If they are switching, they have to know that their longer trips are to be switched to a rental.

I have only an EV. There are no issues whatsoever with long trips. I do at least a couple of long trips each month. I just got back from a 1200km trip.

Originally Posted by navrddy

So now in EV, you are polluting somewhere instead of tailpipe, Environmental damage is anyway done, only that we don't realize that in EV in front of your eyes.
Lets not forget, child labor and environmental disturbing practices used in mining of rare earth elements used in batteries.

About 40% of electricity in India is now from renewable sources while 100% of petrol is non renewable. Secondly, pollution is a big problem in large cities. Most power plants are located away from the cities where pollution is a lesser problem. So, yes, it is better to move pollution away from big cities. Finally, a large power plant is far more efficient than millions of cars burning fuel individually. You are worried about mining for batteries. Have you considered the enormous damage caused by mining oil, transportation of it for thousands of kms on large ships, refining it, sending it across the country on thousands of large trucks, operating hundreds of thousands of petrol stations? How many wars have been fought for oil? Oil spills?

Originally Posted by navrddy

How many of us can afford Kona or MG,?. "Very few social and environmentally feel good perceived people".Finally, we can have 100 justifications to have EV or not have EV. It is upto practicality and end user to decide to have or not have. I just highlighted some not to buy though.

Everyone buying Creta, Seltos, Fortuner, Jeep, Sonnet etc and above can afford to buy an EV. Now 6% of Tata total sales are EVs. There are plenty of people. It looks like you are hell bent on finding reasons to not buy an EV.

[Bluengel180]

Why is there a fossil fuel vs electric debate on a Electric car sub forum? Specifically on a TATA Nexon EV review forum?

Electric cars are at thier nascent stages, they do have thier shortcomings currently but they are the cars of the future. Why subject the early adopters to a debate about it's practicality. If you don't believe in electric cars and never want to buy one there are so many other sections on this website you can go to for traditional cars.

Can we please just get back to topics pertaining to only the Nexon.

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by Bluengel180

Why is there a fossil fuel vs electric debate on a Electric car sub forum? Specifically on a TATA Nexon EV review forum?

Well said! Even at this nascent stage, an EV makes tremendous sense in this country, where the 'regular cars' are so lousy and boring - especially in the price brackets accessible to the mango man.

If I were in the EU or the US, I wouldn't think twice before getting a petrol engined fun machine right now over any Tesla. But over here, I don't see the point at all. Besides, ethanol will screw the petrols soon, just what BS6 did to Diesels already! Atleast, the latter was for a good cause! But I am not at all sure about the shoddy implementation of it across the board. Anyways, I am digressing.

Coming back, and if I recall correctly, Nexon EV was my nomination for the COTY when it debuted. And Tata has hit it out of the park with the EV Dark. Just saw one in person up close and its brilliant inside out. So effin desirable!!

[vj_v3]

Have Tata dealers been open to allowing customers to get their own insurance instead of their super expensive options? Are dealerships allowing this in general or does arm twisting somehow or building contacts going to help?

It's been a while since i bought a car or have been to a showroom and several years ago some of them used to allow getting an external insurance if we were to walk away from the deal.

[hgogri]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

There are two products in development which provides Cruise Control, I have already ordered one, which was due for delivery in early Nov. but got pushed due to last minute defect and few design changes. Look for Aha nexcruise on YouTube for more info.

Can you please tell which is the second product for Cruise control. I am aware of Aha NexCruise.

[prasanna_indaje]

Originally Posted by vj_v3

Have Tata dealers been open to allowing customers to get their own insurance instead of their super expensive options? Are dealerships allowing this in general or does arm twisting somehow or building contacts going to help?

You can get insurance of your preference.

Dealership may try to convince how great their insurance options are and may even try to match the quotation that you may have from outside. But, you are the deciding authority.

[Electromotive]

Eco-friendliness, while a valid point in favor of EVs, should not be used as an argument for pushing EVs in India. Why? Because this is India we are talking about. The actual sources of pollution are so numerous and insidious that ICE cars with their catalytic converters rank quite low in the totem pole and even a few thousand EVs in a metro is not going to decrease pollution by any measure.

Blame the municipalities that openly burn garbage/plastics, blame the industrialists that openly flout environmental norms and have the govt. officials on their payroll, blame the farmers burning stubble, blame the poorly maintained commercial vehicles and authorities that turn a blind eye and don't forget to blame the poor people that burn coal/wood/garbage to stay warm in winter.

Unless we are doing something to check the above sources of pollution, let's not push eco-friendliness as an argument to get a BEV. BEV have enough going for them as it is - better handling, great torque, rapid acceleration, low maintenance etc. If those don't convince an ICE user, so be it. Let them move to an EV when they are ready.