[SreeT]

An Electric revolution will come when the consumer gets a product that is superior. This tax subsidized nonsense will not last.



How much more can their governments squeeze out of their citizens to keep Ms. Thunberg happy?

[Holyghost]

I have been driving E2O for the past few years and purchased Nexon EV on Oct 2020.
I had to do a 900KM round trip and there were public fast chargers available every 150-200KMs. I had to plan and find out the charging locations before venturing out and it turned out to be a pleasant journey. Nexon EV proved that it can do occasional out station trips if required.

I did not purchase the Nexon for any long highway trips, but my Cruze met with an accident and I was left with no other vehicle. I was forced to use the Nexon for long drives and it turned out to be quite a surprise. 40-50 Mins Fast Charging is not that time consuming as we think it is. You plug in your car, get some tea, snacks and when you come back, already 30mins or more would have passed and in another 10mins, you are out. I am planning another trip to Bangalore some time this month which will be a 1600KM round trip and there are enough Fast Charging stations to make the trip safely. And do note that this is with a city car with 200KM usable range.

My next purchase will be an EV with ~400KM range which from my experience will be more than sufficient for any highway trips across India. I believe it wouldn't take more than a couple of years for vehicles with 500KM range to hit the market and by then all our highways will be well connected with Fast Chargers. A 1600KM round trip to Bangalore will need only 2 Fast charging stops in a vehicle with 400KM range. I can start from home with a full charge, do a 1 hr Fast charge while having lunch, reach Bangalore by evening and charge at home. The same for the return journey with just 1 charging stop.

The nay-sayers are not seeing the Charging infrastructure that is mushrooming in the country. Independent clusters of charging facilities are coming up in every state in huge numbers. Take for example the city of Trivandrum, Kerala. There were just one Fast charger as of December 2020 and it now has 4 Fast Charging stations with 8 more coming up in next few months. That would take the total FC stations to 12 for a tier2 city. Kochi had just 2 Stations in Dec and now there are 5. Apart from this, Oil companies too are planning FC stations at their outlets.

[TrackDay]

I fully support the EV revolution ! It is a great way ahead and the technology is getting better and better everyday.

After the initial friction against change, the market will gladly welcome these cars. Even the ecosystem for their support will come up. When there is demand the supply will come up.

Just like the cell phone boom along with signal towers, electric vehicles with an infrastructure to support their charging might become widespread. I do hope they bring out swappable batteries too. That way just like we get gas cylinders delivered we could get batteries delivered to our residences !

[suhas_raj]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The charging infrastructure will naturally follow demand and usually faster than we believe. Once real world range with a 20% safety charge crosses 300 kms, the use of EV's will spread as that range will address ~90% of the daily needs of ~90% of consumers.

EV 'tank-to-wheels' efficiency is about a factor of 3X higher than internal combustion engine vehicles. Energy is not consumed while the vehicle is stationary, unlike internal combustion engines which consume fuel while idling.

The lifecycle analysis of EVs shows that even when powered by the most carbon intensive electricity in Europe, they emit less greenhouse gases than a conventional diesel vehicle*

Where the other big argument of electricity coming from coal or gas or oil based plants – well that’s true today. Very true. But we are driving a change for the next 100 odd years or more and that change will unfold over 15 to 30 years.

5 of the world’s 10 largest solar plants are in India.

Eventually in 25 years or 30 years the efficiency of solar panels will get to a point where over 50% of the charge needed by the car’s battery will come from the solar roof of the car itself. Don’t doubt it.

For those decrying our power outages - India does not have a electricity generation problem anymore. Now we have a distribution infrastructure to address.

Embrace change. It is the only constant.

Narayan Sir, thanks for sharing such an informative post

Critical facts like “tank to wheels” and greenhouse gases emitted by a diesel powered vehicle vis-à-vis electricity for charging the EV are eye openers that we really need to be conscious about.

I believe we are at the crucial juncture where we need to make changes to the way we live, not just what we drive. From adopting to cleaner energy sources such as solar & wind, to really thinking about our over reliance on fossil fuel for everyday life. Eventually, it boils down to what we leave behind for the next generation, a habitable & life sustainable planet or not. EV’s are poised to be the game-changer in the course of future for what happens in this regard.

Every new tech takes time to become mainstream & so will EV’s, no doubt. But having said that, it depends on how quick the informed early adopters make that switch & there in lies the key to other apprehensions about EV ecosystem and innovation in EV tech. Where there is demand, India has the potential to innovate & provide supply. We have proved that as a country far too many times in the last decade or two!

Personally, I would love to have an EV as my next car upgrade for all the reasons mentioned above. I’m sure the change wouldn’t be as seamless as upgrading to another IC vehicle but do I feel it’s worth the effort, a resounding YES! It just feels like the right thing to do for everyone’s sake including my own

Lastly, as cliché as it may sound.. Change is the only constant, the sooner we understand & adapt the better we are.

[landcruiser123]

No doubt India is going have EVs, but the revolution may not be as fast as you think. Reason: Cost & charging availability. Many Indian customers are still extremely price sensitive & making sure there's enough reliable charging in the entire country isn't easy. We're still a third world country and I expect that we'll take a little longer to overcome challenges.

One thing I'm not convinced about is swappable batteries. Reasons:
1. Sealing & re-sealing the battery compartment from water & dust
2. Fake batteries in the market

[gthang]

Does everyone on the forum have to think the same way? Will dissenters be banned a la Twitter?

Lot of parallels drawn between Tech adoption and EV adoption. Don't know how one can compare the Energy industry to tech. Don't know if people suggesting the same know the amount of energy that tech uses.

If the objective is to switch from ICE to EVs with the same interest as switching from featurephone to a smartphone, sure it will happen soon, but will it lead to a switch to alternative energy production? Doubtful with current battery tech. In countries like India, to keep up with the trend and demand, what will be the source of energy? What are the odds of it being green? Most people seem to care only about the availability of the charging point, not the source of the energy.

But go ahead, keep trending the save the planet hashtags without a clue how much energy going viral burns.

Cheers

[aashishnb]

I love EVs. In fact, found the pickup of the Nexon EV similar / better than my Accord v6.

However, a somewhat practical perspective for the Country as a whole - we are going from the frying pan into the fire. From dependence on middle east (for petroleum) which itself has come down and there is enough competition amongst them; the world as a whole is going into dependence on China (till we find alternate non-lithium battery technology). I'd much rather choose the former over the latter - dependence on a group / semi-cartel is better than dependence on one country.

Even the solar power capacity that we are so proud of in India is largely due to en-masse dumping of PV cells from China.

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Instead of charging and waiting for an hour they must try to replace the battery of the car with a fully charged one so one can continue their journey in a jiffy instead of waiting for a hour to get the battery to 80% charge.

I doubt battery replacement will be feasible / viable for most use patterns. One of the reasons mobiles have moved from removable to fixed batteries - apart from saving space is probably the 'safety' factor. Let me explain - a key problem with a removable / replaceable battery, which most of us must've faced in our older mobile phones i.e. as with any removable part, over time and usage, the connectors will get loose, etc. leading to loose connections, sometimes the phone dying, battery not fitting properly (one of the 10-20 screws is tightened less or more than the others!!), etc. Add the high capacity batteries, Li-ion tech, etc. to the mix and it is a dangerous combination. In a car, one would rather be happier with a sealed battery unit

Another worry would be the quality of the battery you get vs the one you put in, but this could be partially alleviated by leasing the batteries instead of buying. However, this only shifts the 'capex' from car buyer to battery leasing company and with taxes and added corporate costs/overheads, may make the battery leasing system not as viable.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The revolution seems to be built on subsidies, these countries are far richer than India.

+1.
Even in India, at present there are a fair bit of subsidies from different states, 5% GST as against 30-40% for cars, lower/NIL road tax & registration fees, 40% depreciation vs 15% for normal vehicles under Income Tax and the biggest of them all - cheaper power for residential users as compared to say commercial/industrial user.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Many Indian customers are still extremely price sensitive & making sure there's enough reliable charging in the entire country isn't easy.

Agree 100%.
Apart from being price sensitive, a car purchase is an important decision for most families as there will be only 1 car in the family.
Besides, compared to most of the European countries & US, the interest rates are higher here, making the deal less favorable for EVs - high upfront capex & low opex as compared to say an ICE vehicle - lower capex & high opex. A higher upfront capex is much difficult to justify financially.

A back of the envelope working I did for the Nexon, like to like model of EV vs say Diesel cost approx. Rs. 5 lakhs more. Cost of running the EV is approx. Rs. 1-2 per km and for the diesel vehicle is Rs. 5-7 per km. Therefore, one needs to run the vehicle for atleast 1 lakh km to just breakeven. Now, an average city use would be say 50-100 km per day. Therefore, would need 1000 days i.e. 3 - 6 years to breakeven!!

So, moving to EV would have to be more a decision of the heart as against head/wallet for now. Having said that, I might still do it if numbers become a little more favorable :-)

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by Holyghost

I had to do a 900KM round trip and there were public fast chargers available every 150-200KMs. I had to plan and find out the charging locations before venturing out and it turned out to be a pleasant journey. Nexon EV proved that it can do occasional out station trips if required.

I did not purchase the Nexon for any long highway trips, but my Cruze met with an accident and I was left with no other vehicle. I was forced to use the Nexon for long drives and it turned out to be quite a surprise. 40-50 Mins Fast Charging is not that time consuming as we think it is. You plug in your car, get some tea, snacks and when you come back, already 30mins or more would have passed and in another 10mins, you are out. I am planning another trip to Bangalore some time this month which will be a 1600KM round trip and there are enough Fast Charging stations to make the trip safely. And do note that this is with a city car with 200KM usable range.

In buying a Nexon EV, one has to spend ~4 lakhs more, severely restrict where one can travel, travel longer and risk fast charging stations not be working or be occupied. That's a very bad deal compared to an ICE car.

On the issue of charging stations, it's all well and good to say it's 'mushrooming' when dealing with a single digit number of charging stations. There is no guarantee that this trend will continue. Let's take CNG which was pushed as a green alternative. Now nearly 2 decades later auto rickshaw drivers have to queue for hundreds of meters to fill up in my city of 1 million. Diesel was pushed as a green alternative in Europe, then came diesel bans making brand new diesel cars lose a huge amount of their value overnight. Everywhere governments interfere, it's the consumers that lose out in the end.

Will EV's advance technologically enough (w.r.t. CO2 emissions during production, range, charging speed and infrastructure etc) before my tax money runs out? If yes, great! If no, everyone who buys an EV in the meantime will be screwed.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by gthang

Lot of parallels drawn between Tech adoption and EV adoption. Don't know how one can compare the Energy industry to tech. Don't know if people suggesting the same know the amount of energy that tech uses.

Tesla's future is utilities. If you dont get it now, you will get it in future. Mark my words.

Originally Posted by gthang

If the objective is to switch from ICE to EVs with the same interest as switching from featurephone to a smartphone, sure it will happen soon, but will it lead to a switch to alternative energy production? Doubtful with current battery tech. In countries like India, to keep up with the trend and demand, what will be the source of energy? What are the odds of it being green? Most people seem to care only about the availability of the charging point, not the source of the energy.

The switch is already taking place. For countries with decent sized houses, you could put solar panels up and drive it for free. I am myself planning to do the same. Even if you are charging it off the grid, the share of renewable keep on increasing and there is no reason to believe that it wont keep increasing in future. The only way an ICE car can become more environment friendly after it has been driven out of the factory floor is by not driving it.

Originally Posted by gthang

But go ahead, keep trending the save the planet hashtags without a clue how much energy going viral burns.

I dont see any data in any of your posts either. Just some personal opinions.

[sandeepmohan]

Am a bit surprised at how Tesla's Model 3 outsold every other car in December. This isn't just any EV. Its a premium price car and Tesla don't manufacture as many cars as some of the top ICE based manufacturers. Interesting times indeed.

Here's a company that's taking the fight to every EV manufacturer out there. Their cars make Tesla's flagship look dated. Fully robotized battery swapping too. This was a company that needed to be bailed out once. Things changed for them in 2020.

https://www.nio.com/nio-power

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...electric-sedan

[dragracer567]

Here is a thought exercise. Imagine you are living in the year 1908 and to make this exercise easier, let’s assume you are a person living in small town in England or France. You’ve heard of this new invention called the automobile which are basically horse-less carriages which apparently runs on a fossil fuel called petrol. Now, it seems that an increasing number of people are shifting to automobiles but you are skeptical. You’ve every right to, here is why:

1) Automobiles will need to filled up with petrol which means an entire network of fuel pumps would need to be installed nation-wide to make long distance travelling viable. Hay for your horses are available in every village and town! Also, trains are comfortable for long distance (still is ironically in many places).

2) Automobiles are expensive, so the average joe will have to take the trains (offcourse trains stuck around becoming faster and better, expect in the US).

3) Horses are living things, so while they may get tired, the chances are them ‘breaking down’ are lower compared to a machine (remember, early cars were extremely unreliable).

4) Cars had loud engines and difficult to control unlike horses which obey you (indeed early cars were indeed difficult to control as they didn’t have a steering wheel if I’m not mistaken).

5) Some guy in America called Henry Ford claims that he has made car manufacturing cheaper but I doubt it. Cars needs an entire infrastructure of roads, service stations and fuel pumps which don’t exist and will take decades to build.

Less than 20 years after that, there was no doubt that automobiles are the future. This shows how preposterous the debate on whether EVs will surpass ICEs is. I know we love the sound of bangs and pops from engines but EVs are faster, more energy efficient, more space efficient, requires minimal service (which in itself is a huge deal) and the list goes on, so EVs make sense even if you are not an environmentalist. Offcourse, you wouldn’t buy an EV now but I’m ready to wager that by 2035, buying an EV would be a no-brainer (if not the only choice). And remember, we are closer now to 2035 than 2005!

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

1) Automobiles will need to filled up with petrol which means an entire network of fuel pumps would need to be installed nation-wide to make long distance travelling viable. Hay for your horses are available in every village and town! Also, trains are comfortable for long distance (still is ironically in many places).

Except, and GTO spoke to it as well, that the fuel is available right in your home. For 90%+ of your commutes, you wont have to charge it outside. Its an under-appreciated fact but you can start your day, everyday with a full tank without ever visiting a fuel station.

[scorpio2107]

I'm fine with all cars being electric, but I pray that the government doesn't ban ICE cars. They should promote electric cars but not ban ICE cars. I'd like to take my ICE car for a spin occasionally!

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

5) Some guy in America called Henry Ford claims that he has made car manufacturing cheaper but I doubt it. Cars needs an entire infrastructure of roads, service stations and fuel pumps which don’t exist and will take decades to build.

Henry Ford doubled workers pay and wanted each one of his workers to be able to afford his product. The prices dropped during the life cycle of the product, in nominal and real terms. The infrastructure to distribute the fuel existed with rail roads and Rockefeller's standard oil had reduced fuel prices by 20 times.

The equivalent of both will have to happen before the so called revolution happens. The biggest hurdle is charging in parking lots, there is total of one in our thousand car parking area, that's for a Reva. This is going to take long to improve because parking is "free" when you buy an apartment, so you get random lines on the floor. The whole idea of leaving the car plugged in is not appealing to a lot of people, some random idiot is going to pull out the cable and you won't know it sitting in your apartment a few floors up.

The existing system suits standalone houses and some secure parking lots, unless that changes the adoption rate will be poor. Saving the planet and all that is a pipe dream unless electric cars affect solar activity. Those interested in the tesla model 3 should watch this video by Savagegeese, it's a realistic take on the car, not a gushing fan boy one. This a 3 series equivalent, so in terms of target customer, only the top 1% of car buyers in India will be able to afford it, as Enzo Ferrari said "for most people, it will remain a dream"

https://youtu.be/4O_oevLs3iU

[vishwasvr]

I recently had to drop off a friend's Nexon EV at his place from my office. So I was pretty excited to drive the EV, and I set off. The initial range reading showed around 95km. A few minutes into peak traffic (I clocked around 2.5km from my office) at the infamous "Silk Bored" junction, the range showed around 65km. I was shocked at the sudden drop in range. I am fairly light footed even in an ICE car, forget an EV. I didn't want to turn back because I didn't have a charger at my office, and I didn't have the bandwidth to look for a charging station. So I took the risk of driving close to 10km and by the time I reached his house, the range showed 45km. He has a charger at home, so I was relieved.

Few things that came to my mind, if I ever buy an EV, then I'd like to be aware of the nearest charging station (or swap station-I prefer swapping batteries to charging because I think it's saves me a lot of time. ). I have ''range phobia". I panic when the fuel reserve hits half tank mark on an ICE. So I'm not sure how I will live a peaceful life if I have to deal with an EV whose range drops drastically (unless this was an exception).

The icing on the cake for me was the quiet drive. Almost inaudible drive, makes for a thrilling experience to say the least!