[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

I had attended several strategic discussions in Max Planck Institutes, trust me, Germany would be one of the first countries that would become full EV. All of them, VW, Daimler, BMW, are extensively working on EVs not only from a vehicle development perspective but also about envisioning charging infrastructure. This is not to undermine disruptions by Tesla but to emphasize, the big Germans aren't chickens either.

Exactly, its no rocket science for he big Germans to replace their IC engine with an all electric unit and battery pack that is all they need to change as the other tech and features would most probably be the same.

They could be slow to adaption to electric cars because of the huge investment spent on R&D and manufacturing of the IC engine and they just can't neglect it all together and give importance to electric vehicles.

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

It is certainly true that Tesla is taking up the market share of the big German three - Mercedes, BMW and Audi but these brands won't give up without a fight. This is because the Germans brands have been surprisingly agile enough to quickly shift to EVs even though they are still a couple of years behind Tesla in terms of range. Infact, I believe by 2022, we will have a EQS (S class equivalent EV) by Mercedes which should take back some of the market share, this is because:

1) There is a still a base of conservative buyers in Europe and the US who will surely go for a Mercedes/BMW EV over a Tesla (but not the current gen German EVs since they clearly need to catch up with Tesla).

2) Teslas still come with spartan interiors for their price and good interiors that is important for some people given the price they pay. One of the key reason for the Taycan's success is that its interiors (+ superior handling to Tesla Model S).

I believe the Korean and German carmakers will successfully convert to EVs remain key players while Tesla and Chinese makers will carve their own space within the market and perhaps even dominate them. The only real losers will be some of the Japanese brands who are too slow to change.

VW seems to be doing quite well compared to tesla in the Netherlands: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/11/te...ld-5726-id-3s/

[ZenMaster]

I'm not trying to sell anyone a Tesla. Neither am I a Tesla owner or fanboy trying to convert forum members to "the Musk Cult" . I also don't have anything against German luxury brands instead I actually love them. I also don't have the bank balance to own either Teslas or German Luxury cars.

Originally Posted by SreeT

How can a individual not even have a slight bit of doubt after reading everything I've posted?

I just expressed my observation as an enthusiast why people might look at Tesla as an aspirational brand and how Tesla is pushing the right buttons of the customers.
I believe the discussion should be more about why Tesla is eating into the market share of the German Big 3 rather than establishing whether Tesla is a luxury brand or not.

Originally Posted by SreeT

Ahem, I've linked 2 cases of them doing exactly the opposite of that.


What is this ecosystem you speak of?


What?

I'm not an EV expert nor a Tesla shareholder and don't feel the responsibility to defend their brand name or coverup their mistakes and subpar production standards and fit and finish compared to German brands.

Originally Posted by SreeT

Can you kindly point out any examples?

I'm can see that you quite skilled at finding examples and proofs from around the world/internet about Tesla's goof ups and failures so it will be as easy to find out about their supercharging networks, their regular OTA updates, seamless ability to activate features etc, and also why many brands seems to be sticking a TV (sometimes multiple displays) onto their dashboards and forcing people to swipe 10 times on a screen to activate basic functions, after Tesla's started rolling out.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SnS_12

They could be slow to adaption to electric cars because of the huge investment spent on R&D and manufacturing of the IC engine and they just can't neglect it all together and give importance to electric vehicles.

To be fair, most German makers have already announced that their current gen of ICEs would be the last they produce (correct me if I'm wrong), so they have almost fully pivoted to EVs. However offcourse, the fact remains that Tesla is a couple of years ahead and the Chinese are more or less ahead as well. But of all the traditional car makers, its the Germans who I'd bet as having a fighting chance.

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

I'm can see that you quite skilled at finding examples and proofs from around the world/internet about Tesla's goof ups and failures...

Well thank you but the praise isn't really necessary. It is actually quite easy.

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

...their supercharging networks, their regular OTA updates, seamless ability to activate features etc, and also why many brands seems to be sticking a TV (sometimes multiple displays) onto their dashboards and forcing people to swipe 10 times on a screen to activate basic functions, after Tesla's started rolling out.

My car has 'superchargers' as well. I can go from empty to full in under 5 minutes with a range of about 800 kms. There are like 10 of them in my small city. And they are universal unlike the proprietary tesla ones.

OTA updates is an interesting 'feature' of teslas. Instead of shipping a complete product, they can ship a half baked product and say to consumers they are giving them stuff for free. Is Mr. Musk still promising full self driving?

Can you point out a proper car that has a computer monitor in it like the model 3? And swipe 10 times? Which car?

Still waiting on what you mean by ecosystem.

[maddy42]

Let me just sprinkle some oil on this debate going on :P

Some examples where naysayers were proven wrong:
They said Tesla will never survive to launch the model S. (Beat the S class in sales)
They said the germans will best tesla in the EV game (Excluding certain EU markets it is not visible as of now)
They said the car will need long hours to charge - Introduces the Supercharger
They said google will beat tesla in autonomous driving - Currently tesla has billions of miles of autopilot analysis.
Normal companies launch model years, Tesla upgrades existing models overnight with a software update.
The company will not be able to make the model 3 - Currently makes a version and also gets the leading spots in EV in multiple markets.
Some said Elon should be fired - Elon Becomes the worlds richest man



The point i cannot stress enough is Tesla singlehandedly forced every government and automaker to pivot to electric. Also forced the Oil countries to pivot their economy in the coming decade.

Maddy

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by maddy42

Let me just sprinkle some oil on this debate going on :P

Some examples where naysayers were proven wrong:
They said Tesla will never survive to launch the model S. (Beat the S class in sales)
They said the germans will best tesla in the EV game (Excluding certain EU markets it is not visible as of now)
They said the car will need long hours to charge - Introduces the Supercharger
They said google will beat tesla in autonomous driving - Currently tesla has billions of miles of autopilot analysis.
Normal companies launch model years, Tesla upgrades existing models overnight with a software update.
The company will not be able to make the model 3 - Currently makes a version and also gets the leading spots in EV in multiple markets.
Some said Elon should be fired - Elon Becomes the worlds richest man

The point i cannot stress enough is Tesla singlehandedly forced every government and automaker to pivot to electric. Also forced the Oil countries to pivot their economy in the coming decade.

Maddy

Absolutely no sources anywhere in sight.

Tesla isn't doing very hot in Europe ATM: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/11/te...ld-5726-id-3s/

I have linked like 3 cases where autopilot killed people and you still think they are good?

Originally Posted by dragracer567

But of all the traditional car makers, its the Germans who I'd bet as having a fighting chance.

Tesla isn't doing very hot in Europe ATM: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/11/te...ld-5726-id-3s/

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by SreeT

Absolutely no sources anywhere in sight.

You love those links dont you? But here you go:

Tesla wont survive: https://www.greencarreports.com/news...t-analysts-say

Elon is wrong: https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-musk-is-wrong

Tesla will be beaten by germans: https://www.spiegel.de/international...c-3d1140e0519f

Tesla beat S class sales:

Tesla Model 3 is a safe car: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ck/2354457001/

Charge times will ruin electric cars: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-in-15-minutes

Elon musk should be fired? https://soundcloud.com/funnyastech/s...red-from-tesla

Tesla beats Porsche in the Nuburgring:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...20get%20there.

Pivot from Oil or Die: https://www.climateandcapitalmedia.c...-pivot-or-die/

This is from 2010 when Tesla barely survived: https://www.wired.com/2010/09/ff-tesla/

There are many areas in which Tesla is bad presently, but it will be hard to ignore them or EVs at the moment in time.

Maddy

[snan]

As a Musk fan but not a Tesla fanboy, I can't but admire the genius for what he has done on the EV space. We can criticize all we want, but he produced a product that was almost deemed impossible at the price point that he did it.
But in the longer term, I do see Tesla more as battery maker than car maker. I'd bet that the big boys from Germany will do a better job of making a soulful EV (e.g Taycan by all reviews looks like the best driver's EV ever made thus far).

As someone who drove the performance version of Model 3, I can't but remember with a smile the absolute fun the instant acceleration gives - its almost like a fast roller coaster. But the car as such is clearly not for everyone - its just OK in handling, interior is a bit too dry, there is no soul in the drive and for me it caused motion sickness which I've never ever had in my life. Im looking forward to driving the Taycan and seeing how much better it is on areas that I value.

But no taking away what they did to revolutionize EV space.

[1LR-GUE]

Am I the only one who thinks THERE IS SCOPE FOR EMERGENCE OF NEW PREMIUM BRANDS LIKE TESLA?

My reason being-

1. EVs have less moving parts, so there is much scope for standardisation. This means more brands can emerge easily just like smartphone industry. This also means maybe change of old guard among contract manufacturing companies like Bosch, Delphi, etc. with emergence of new contract manufacturing companies like Foxconn in smartphone industry.

2. Because of standardisation, I suppose cars will become more modular with lots of DIY user upgrades and greater longivity. So we might see emergence of luxury accessories for EVs in place of tuning companies for petrol cars.

3. I see a world where every manufacturer of car can match or may be better Tesla's wealth of autopilot, driving data by tying up with tech and cloud companies like apple, amazon and google. Just like the one happening between apple and hyundai.

The more not talked about aspect is that with the advent of EVs and autonomous driving, I feel there is a strong need to evaluate and modify our existing road laws.

Interesting times ahead!

P.S - Experts in these fields kindly clarify and comment on my above mentioned thoughts, as they are pure speculations.

[CarJunki]

I remember a few years ago there were few brand new Audi Q7 sent to Himalayas for a road trip as media launch event. Few of them had to come back on a Tata tow trucks because of failures. Pictures of that appeared on this very forum. So much for engineering.

In general if any company does not spend on media via their PR, it is quite natural that company will only get negative PR. I like the fact that media is fully focused on where their next meal is coming from. (Just for reference, I do not consider Team-BHP as media house).

For some years now, people have been trying to predict implosion of Tesla as a company and have been nicely slapped by the stock investors (note i said investors not traders).

Few years back when looking for a diesel hatchback, I got into a VW polo to test drive, somehow did not like how it responded (or did not respond) to accelerator input. The sales guy said engine is a 30 year old reliable design. And after a few years Diesel gate blew in the face of VW. I thanked MS to not have agreed to pressures from VW to accept their sub-standard engine.

Now, I do not care whether the new EV's are luxury products or not. Just that one player is far ahead of others in terms of technology. I do not expect many to understand the technological advantages one player holds. Just for example the range Tesla achieves with much smaller battery requires sometimes up to 40% larger batteries for others.

Many players are depending on radar & mobile connectivity to attempt full self driving by constantly downloading HD maps of current local area to identify objects that are around. I hope the obvious is visible that network connectivity is not always top notch. Then it is also quite obvious the one who solves for computer vision will lead the race.
I also think the initial batches of Tesla cars in India will come with self driving disabled in software but with fully capable hardware.

Some one was mentioning small European country as an example where some luxury brand EV cars are outselling Tesla. Surprisingly Renault Zoe is the largest selling EV in Europe. Not coming from any named luxury brands.

It is also coincidental that many luxury brands are forced to buy carbon credit from Tesla so that they can keep selling fossil fueled cars. Quite a contradiction. If they are out selling Tesla then they should already have the carbon credits, No?

In the Indian context, I see other manufacturers with a tinted glass of providing sub-standard experience and quality (for mass market south of 20L). This includes even Indian manufacturers. Having studied how Tesla manufactures, I am confident and hopeful the same level of safety and product quality will be experienced as with say US users.

There are a few things which Tesla as an end-2-end player (as both car and energy supplier) will help in India. Some are:
- Planned and already auctioned solar power generation capacity waiting for long term contracts, so that the project takes off
- Already installed solar and wind energy with long term contracts. The recently commissioned capacity is struggling to find buyers

How? With the Mega packs and Super chargers combined, they can benefit from low energy prices and at the same time the green energy producers get good revenue visibility.

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by CarJunki

I remember a few years ago there were few brand new Audi Q7 sent to Himalayas for a road trip as media launch event. Few of them had to come back on a Tata tow trucks because of failures. Pictures of that appeared on this very forum. So much for engineering.

The question is, weather these were vehicles delivered to consumers and if they were, did they have the faults list like I've mentioned?

Originally Posted by CarJunki

In general if any company does not spend on media via their PR, it is quite natural that company will only get negative PR. I like the fact that media is fully focused on where their next meal is coming from. (Just for reference, I do not consider Team-BHP as media house).

I think this is not true because if Mercedes had their cars have components fitted with furniture pieces and roofs literally flew off, there is no amount of positive PR that would hide that fact.
Infact I think there is acutally a PR department for tesla here. It's a volunteer department as opposed to a paid one which I consider you to be a part of. If not, then how can the share price be explained in spite of all these faults, especially the ones costing human lives?

Originally Posted by CarJunki

For some years now, people have been trying to predict implosion of Tesla as a company and have been nicely slapped by the stock investors (note i said investors not traders).

I don't understand your point here. Are you bragging that tesla manages to do well inspite of all these faults?

Originally Posted by CarJunki

Few years back when looking for a diesel hatchback, I got into a VW polo to test drive, somehow did not like how it responded (or did not respond) to accelerator input. The sales guy said engine is a 30 year old reliable design. And after a few years Diesel gate blew in the face of VW. I thanked MS to not have agreed to pressures from VW to accept their sub-standard engine.

Ok?

Originally Posted by CarJunki

Now, I do not care whether the new EV's are luxury products or not. Just that one player is far ahead of others in terms of technology. I do not expect many to understand the technological advantages one player holds. Just for example the range Tesla achieves with much smaller battery requires sometimes up to 40% larger batteries for others.

The reason why tesla is far ahead is because they concentrate on one niche of the market. EVs still make up a singular percentage of the global market and no manufacturer can justify spending millions of euros going after this niche. But when they try, like Renault Zoe they are successful. The ID3 is already outselling Tesla in the biggest electric car market in Europe (oil money Norway).

Originally Posted by CarJunki

Many players are depending on radar & mobile connectivity to attempt full self driving by constantly downloading HD maps of current local area to identify objects that are around. I hope the obvious is visible that network connectivity is not always top notch. Then it is also quite obvious the one who solves for computer vision will lead the race.
I also think the initial batches of Tesla cars in India will come with self driving disabled in software but with fully capable hardware.

You are still maintaining that the way tesla is going is the correct way, inspite of them killing multiple consumers with autopilot. Let me give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyUqZDYwrU

. Don't you agree that a 'HD map' would prevent such behavior? And your statement is very misleading, as you are pretending that they are only using these maps to navigate without also using cameras and LIDAR as well. So these maps are an extra layer of data for the car on top of the cameras and LIDAR. And camera based lane keep assist isn't some mystery tech that only tesla can do. You literally can buy an open source LKA system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJzvrDBQwOE

Originally Posted by CarJunki

Some one was mentioning small European country as an example where some luxury brand EV cars are outselling Tesla. Surprisingly Renault Zoe is the largest selling EV in Europe. Not coming from any named luxury brands.

No, I've mentioned Netherlands and Norway, and they are quite big markets for EVs due to subsidies. "Norway has the largest share of EV registrations among European countries". And I've never mentioned luxury here. I was pointing out that tesla might not be so 'far ahead' as fanboys would like you to believe.

Originally Posted by CarJunki

It is also coincidental that many luxury brands are forced to buy carbon credit from Tesla so that they can keep selling fossil fueled cars. Quite a contradiction. If they are out selling Tesla then they should already have the carbon credits, No?

I literally linked you data of Telsa being outsold, you even say the Renault outsells tesla. And now you are saying they aren't being outsold? What?

Originally Posted by CarJunki

In the Indian context, I see other manufacturers with a tinted glass of providing sub-standard experience and quality (for mass market south of 20L). This includes even Indian manufacturers. Having studied how Tesla manufactures, I am confident and hopeful the same level of safety and product quality will be experienced as with say US users.

I've literally linked the latest model of tesla having components fitted with furniture pieces and a roof flying off. How can you even mention the words safety and quality in the same sentence as tesla?

I hope that the Chinese cars tesla is going to sell will have even shit quality so that our money doesn't flow into our dystopian enemy.

Originally Posted by CarJunki

There are a few things which Tesla as an end-2-end player (as both car and energy supplier) will help in India. Some are:
- Planned and already auctioned solar power generation capacity waiting for long term contracts, so that the project takes off
- Already installed solar and wind energy with long term contracts. The recently commissioned capacity is struggling to find buyers

How? With the Mega packs and Super chargers combined, they can benefit from low energy prices and at the same time the green energy producers get good revenue visibility.

Ok? Don't see how it's relevant to the discussion here.

Originally Posted by 1LR-GUE

Am I the only one who thinks THERE IS SCOPE FOR EMERGENCE OF NEW PREMIUM BRANDS LIKE TESLA?

They are very good reasons, and I too think that it might actually start the coach building industry back again. But the cars might look bland though considering the need to extract as much range as possible from the amount of energy onboard.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by SreeT

You are still maintaining that the way tesla is going is the correct way, inspite of them killing multiple consumers with autopilot. Let me give you an example:

Lane keep assist is a standard feature on even the Corolla. Sure, Tesla calls it fancy names, but when compared to a comparable feature on the German cars, or Japanese cars these features on a Tesla come out on top. I have driven the Lexus and a Toyota with lane keep assist, they limit the corrections in a perfect lane to a specific degree. They do not trust their tech on all roads with varying/tight radius. You will be thrust into the path of a truck in the adjacent lane, by design.

On the Tesla, I have myself hit the voice button and said "bug report", when there has been a slowdown in set cruise speed on a seemingly straight road. In a couple weeks, such problems go away with the next update. That is the beauty of a connected car. One user's data on a particular road can be used to make the drive better for thousands of other Teslas that use this road.

I am not sure what Tesla PR you are talking about. https://electrek.co/2020/10/06/tesla...pr-department/
While we talk about this we need to talk about the biased media, because of the millions spent on ads in Road & Track, Car & Driver and such outlets. Then there are the ads from the dealers. If not for the Tesla owners, Tesla would not have nearly half the success they have had.

I am not disputing the paint quality issues, or panel gap issues reported by some. It is a car that came with a 7 day return policy. What other manufacturer takes returns? People held on to their cars because the issues were not dealbreakers, but they choose to get some clicks/popularity by making a Tesla video. That said, I have had my Model 3 for almost 3 years now. It has not been to any service shop, nothing spent on regular maintenance. I changed the tires, wipers, and cabin air filter for kicks - that's it.

I am awaiting Rivian, and considering their pickup. I am not hopeful of ever seeing a compelling offering from the traditional auto dealer mafia. Even the Mustang EV is gradually being destroyed with crazy markups. They will not invest insane amounts, and go all in while they can milk it with ICE cars. It takes certain amount of lunacy to invest in giga factories, nationwide charging networks, and AI backed with big data. No one else is even trying these things.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by SreeT

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/11/te...ld-5726-id-3s/

I have been purposely avoiding any discussion with you because you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about including saying that "Autopilot is lane keep assist". I drive a Lexus RX with the said lane assist and its not even close to what Tesla does. I could also give you a lecture on the autonomy day and how Tesla can manipulate pixels and calculate distance reasonably accurately and they dont need a LIDAR for that. Or that a LIDAR itself is blind but that wont be of any use because all you do is scour internet for specific links and the context is totally lost on you. You think LIDAR is good not because you understand the technology bit because you read it somewhere because a car company would have to believe so.

As for sales - https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...#39;s%20market.

And if you knew anything you would know that Europe is severely supply constrained in that they get their cars from the Freemont factory and possibly from China now and they dont even have Model Y launched as yet. It is the reason why a giga factory is Berlin is under construction and true numbers would be out once that factory starts building cars for Europe.

P.S. You can now go back to finding sporadic links now

[SreeT]

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

Lane keep assist is a standard feature on even the Corolla. Sure, Tesla calls it fancy names, but when compared to a comparable feature on the German cars, or Japanese cars these features on a Tesla come out on top. I have driven the Lexus and a Toyota with lane keep assist, they limit the corrections in a perfect lane to a specific degree. They do not trust their tech on all roads. You will be thrust into the path of a truck in the adjacent lane, by design.

That wasn't my experience driving a 5 series BMW 2 years ago. I let it drive me at 150 kmph for 3 hours at night and it was perfect. Again, why don't the deaths matter to you?

Let me put it in a simple question: In the first tractor-trailer accident, after it hit the trailer and had it's top removed, which presumably also got rid of the 'autopilot' cameras, the car continued at the set speed according to the NTSB, eventually veering off the road. Is this proper behavior in your opinion, that the 'autopilot' doesn't even know that an accident has taken place?

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

I have myself hit the voice button and said "bug report", when there has been a slowdown in set cruise speed on a seemingly straight road. In a couple weeks, such problems go away with the next update. That is the beauty of a connected car. One user's data on a particular road can be used to make the drive better for thousands of other Teslas that use this road.

In a machine that moves me at 100+ kmph, I'd rather that the car had no bugs as it came out of the factory. You feel okay to do free bug testing for tesla because you like them, but the vast majority or normal people would rather that there are no bugs for the sake of their and their family's safety.

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

I am not sure what Tesla PR you are talking about. https://electrek.co/2020/10/06/tesla...pr-department/
While we talk about this we need to talk about the biased media, because of the millions spent on ads in Road & Track, Car & Driver and such outlets. Then there are the ads from the dealers. If not for the Tesla owners, Tesla would not have nearly half the success they have had.

I am saying that fanboys are the PR department for tesla, the point you've agree to in the last part of this quote. And BTW, >90% of the articles I've linked in this thread come from EV car news websites, so even if you claim that there is a car review mafia going on, it shouldn't matter. And like I've said multiple times, everything I've linked is hard facts rather than opinion pieces.

BTW until around ~1 year ago, most of these youtube channels and news websites always had a tesla referral code attached to their videos/articles, now it's only some of them doing it. Isn't that PR?

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

I am not disputing the paint quality issues, or panel gap issues reported by some. It is a car that came with a 7 day return policy. What other manufacturer takes returns? People held on to their cars because the issues were not dealbreakers, but they choose to get some clicks/popularity by making a Tesla video. That said, I have had my Model 3 for almost 3 years now. It has not been to any service shop, nothing spent on regular maintenance. I changed the tires, wipers, and cabin air filter for kicks - that's it.

Which is precisely the point here. How can tesla be considered to be a luxury manufacturer if they can't even paint their cars properly. let alone panel fitment or deaths from burning battery packs and 'autopilot'. Also: https://insideevs.com/news/462517/el...00-units-2020/

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

I am awaiting Rivian, and considering their pickup. I am not hopeful of ever seeing a compelling offering from the traditional auto dealer mafia. Even the Mustang EV is gradually being destroyed with crazy markups. They will not invest insane amounts, and go all in while they can milk it with ICE cars. It takes certain amount of lunacy to invest in giga factories, nationwide charging networks, and AI backed with big data. No one else is even trying these things.

You do realize you are actually doing more environmental damage buying a new EV while your old one is fine right? The best way you can help the environment is to keep using your tesla till it breaks.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I have been purposely avoiding any discussion with you because you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about including saying that "Autopilot is lane keep assist". I drive a Lexus RX with the said lane assist and its not even close to what Tesla does. I could also give you a lecture on the autonomy day and how Tesla can manipulate pixels and calculate distance reasonably accurately and they dont need a LIDAR for that. Or that a LIDAR itself is blind but that wont be of any use because all you do is scour internet for specific links and the context is totally lost on you. You think LIDAR is good not because you understand the technology bit because you read it somewhere because a car company would have to believe so.

It seems to me that your only source of information is telsa, and ofcourse they say they are right and everyone else is wrong (Read: https://scale.com/blog/is-elon-wrong-about-lidar). What's wrong with having additional data to work off of? It's not like they are LIDAR only. Again, toyota is very conservative when it comes to technology. Which is why their cars don't kill people.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

As for sales - https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...#39;s%20market.

Yes but consider this: The ID3 sold 7,754 cars in just 4 months, while Tesla sold 7,770 for the year. The reason apparently for tesla beating in December but not the previous months is because they try to sync deliveries with earnings reports or something to keep their share price high.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

P.S. You can now go back to finding sporadic links now

What do you mean by sporadic links? I'm linking facts that support my point. You can argue my facts if you think your viewpoint is correct, you can't just stick your head in the sand and hope to win arguments based on words rather than facts.