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Old 14th January 2021, 10:57   #1
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Default Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

German marques have long ruled the luxury car market all over the world. Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi have been dominant players in almost all of the major markets. Worldwide, Mercedes-Benz has been the highest selling luxury car brand for 5 years on the trot.

China is the largest market for luxury cars in the world. In 2020, Mercedes-Benz sold the most number of luxury cars in the country followed by BMW. However, these brands are now facing a challenge from luxury electric carmakers such as Tesla.

Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands-tesla1.jpg

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Tesla, Nio Inc. and Li Auto Inc. emerged as forces to be reckoned with in China, where BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen AG’s Audi have long controlled more than 60% of the luxury segment. The market was a source of growth for the Germans last year, though they still gave up some of their share to the electric upstarts.

“The historically untouchable German brands have begun ceding market share to Tesla and other luxury EV specialists,” Alexander Potter, a Piper Sandler & Co. analyst, wrote in a report. He predicts the trend will only get worse for BMW, Mercedes and Audi. “Bottom line: whenever Tesla opens a store in a new city, the Germans lose share... and there’s still lots of headroom for opening new stores.”
Earlier this year, Tesla had reported that compared to 2019, its deliveries increased by 36%. This was despite the outbreak of the Covid-19 pandemic.

BMW leads Mercedes-Benz when it comes to electric cars. The former sold almost 193,000 EVs in 2020 compared to the latter's 160,000. Audi lies a distant third with 47,000 units of the e-Tron SUV delivered.

To face the challenge posed by luxury electric carmakers, the German manufacturers have started offering electric cars of their own. The companies realise that they need to increase the number of electric models they have n their portfolio. By 2023, BMW plans to increase its number of electric offering to 25. Mercedes-Benz has 4 new battery-powered vehicles lined up for launched this year. The EQA will be the first of the new offerings.

Source - Bloomberg
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Old 14th January 2021, 16:16   #2
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Default re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

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Originally Posted by Aditya View Post

BMW leads Mercedes-Benz when it comes to electric cars. The former sold almost 193,000 EVs in 2020 compared to the latter's 160,000. Audi lies a distant third with 47,000 units of the e-Tron SUV delivered.
The 193K & 160K from BMW and Mercedes respectively are BEVs and PHEVs, 47K of Audi etron is of only BEVs. I am not sure how many PHEVs are sold by Audi, anyways I do not think they are very far behind.

VW, the most ambitious of all manufacturers when it comes to EVs, sold 231K BEVs(id3, iD4, taycan, etron, egolf etc..) in 2020. May be they will achieve 1M BEV sales in 2022.

Plants VW is converting for EV manufacturing.
Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands-karte_meb_standorte_en_1163.png
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Old 15th January 2021, 07:28   #3
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Default re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

Believable. The Model S outsold the S-Class in some years in USA. You see Teslas all over super rich California areas and now, we're seeing the same trend in China. Believe me, when Tesla enters India, it will take a lot of Audi / BMW / Mercedes customers. The cars are damn sorted, super fast, spacious and backed by an enormously cool brand.

No easy feat what they have achieved. In the last 50 - 60 years, we have seen just two new luxury brands at the global level. Tesla is one, Lexus another. Lexus though has lost its sheen with falling sales, old product lines and weird designs.
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Old 15th January 2021, 07:45   #4
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

I think the speed at which the big Germans adopt the battery revolution will be much faster in the next couple of years; they let it slide for way too long and it will be now or never for them. And for China, the speed at which they build expressways and infrastructure, it will be like an easy hack for them to install charging stations across the country.

I feel the adoption will be even more faster (especially in the US) if the big players get into an agreement to leverage on Tesla’s supercharger network. It will be a win-win situation for all involved.
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Old 15th January 2021, 08:11   #5
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

Challenge yes, but whether that challenge remains the same, will be a matter of debate. The Germans were little slack with the onslaught of electric bandwagon but I am sure they will be back.

Audi and Volkswagen are well on their way with competent models already. At the end of the day, Tesla for all its worth, is still a niche company with products for a certain customer segment. It will not be long before the Germans catch up bigtime since they have the conventional infrastructure in place already. They just have to convert some to go the EV way and which, as mentioned above, is already happening.

As per previous reports, Audi is already on their way to introduce six new electric models in China by the end of 2021 and by natural extension, some of the models will also make its way to India and other markets. The rest like BMW and Mercedes are also coming up with products in the segment. The conventional manufacturers will always have their nose ahead, it’s their game to lose actually.
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Old 15th January 2021, 10:09   #6
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

I had attended several strategic discussions in Max Planck Institutes, trust me, Germany would be one of the first countries that would become full EV. All of them, VW, Daimler, BMW, are extensively working on EVs not only from a vehicle development perspective but also about envisioning charging infrastructure. This is not to undermine disruptions by Tesla but to emphasize, the big Germans aren't chickens either.
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Old 16th January 2021, 02:35   #7
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Calling tesla a luxury car maker is a stretch.

https://insideevs.com/features/37788...model-3-guide/
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Old 16th January 2021, 06:47   #8
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Believable. The Model S outsold the S-Class in some years in USA. You see Teslas all over super rich California areas and now, we're seeing the same trend in China. Believe me, when Tesla enters India, it will take a lot of Audi / BMW / Mercedes customers. The cars are damn sorted, super fast, spacious and backed by an enormously cool brand.

No easy feat what they have achieved. In the last 50 - 60 years, we have seen just two new luxury brands at the global level. Tesla is one, Lexus another. Lexus though has lost its sheen with falling sales, old product lines and weird designs.
This is where I feel India had a massive opportunity and we missed it yet again.

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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
Calling tesla a luxury car maker is a stretch.

https://insideevs.com/features/37788...model-3-guide/
Calling Mercedes Benz as a luxury car maker is a stretch

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/mercedes-reliability/

Last edited by extreme_torque : 16th January 2021 at 06:54.
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Old 16th January 2021, 15:33   #9
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Calling Mercedes Benz as a luxury car maker is a stretch

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/mercedes-reliability/
The article I linked points out the problems as the car comes out of the factory while the article you've linked points out the problems that occur after a few years of ownership. For e.g. the article I've linked says:
Quote:
Tesla used to say you could return the car in up to 7 days for a full refund. If you did that, you could order a new one by paying a fee. The problem is that this must be happening more often than the company predicted.
Instead of preventing the issues that made this more frequent, Tesla changed this procedure last summer. Now, if you refuse delivery, you can only order a new car after one year. And it has to be a more expensive one. It is a way to make more impatient clients overlook problems.
Scummy is the word that comes to mind.


But let's even compare the two:

The OSV says this about Mercedes' reliability:

Quote:
Mercedes isn’t considered one of the more reliable manufacturers.
While the same organization says this about tesla's reliability:

Quote:
Are Tesla reliable?

Not particularly. There have been many reports of Tesla’s unreliability, and this has been backed up by many consumer reports and surveys.
I think it is obvious from the language which company is more unreliable.
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Old 17th January 2021, 15:12   #10
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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
The article I linked points out the problems as the car comes out of the factory while the article you've linked points out the problems that occur after a few years of ownership.
And Mercedes has been making cars for more than a century now. How much more do they need, to even match the reliability or longevity of even a basic Toyota like a Yaris or a Corolla? So how are they a luxury brand and Tesla isnt?
Have to sat in a Tesla, driven one or felt it?

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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
For e.g. the article I've linked says:
Scummy is the word that comes to mind.
How is this scummy? Which other car manufacturer does it? I don't think that refund offer was to stay forever, it was an industry first initiative primarily to inspire confidence for someone buying an electric car for the first time not when they are selling half a million cars a year!

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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
But let's even compare the two:

The OSV says this about Mercedes' reliability:

While the same organization says this about tesla's reliability:

I think it is obvious from the language which company is more unreliable.
Not its not obvious. Tesla topped the owner satisfaction survey. The owners who bought the car with their own money, preferring it over all the other brands including Mercedes.
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...faction-survey

Tesla problems are not with fundamental engineering, they are mostly related to build and some electrical gremlins. Do you know the top 3 cars with the least probability of injury in case of an accidents - yes all three are Tesla's. Not Mercedes, not BMW. Enough said.
https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/mod...r-tested-nhtsa

Last edited by extreme_torque : 17th January 2021 at 15:14.
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Old 17th January 2021, 17:09   #11
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And Mercedes has been making cars for more than a century now. How much more do they need, to even match the reliability or longevity of even a basic Toyota like a Yaris or a Corolla? So how are they a luxury brand and Tesla isn't?
Have to sat in a Tesla, driven one or felt it?
The article you've linked says that Mercedes fails in the area of electronics, not mechanical. Tesla isn't doing too hot in that area as well: https://apnews.com/article/us-news-f...89fd00f20a16f8. Of course it won't match the reliability of cheap mass market cars with minimum tech from the likes of Toyota, who are extremely conservative when it comes to engineering.

I haven't driven a tesla yet as there are no showrooms nearby or charging stations to charge it if I rented it. But the faults I see on the internet and the scummy practices of tesla are enough to convince me that people hide that teslas are subpar products and push them for what ever reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
How is this scummy? Which other car manufacturer does it? I don't think that refund offer was to stay forever, it was an industry first initiative primarily to inspire confidence for someone buying an electric car for the first time not when they are selling half a million cars a year!
Ahem: https://insideevs.com/news/463589/te...very-refusals/

Not allowing you to refuse delivery when there are faults present isn't scummy? Tesla can kill babies and people will still push them.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Not its not obvious. Tesla topped the owner satisfaction survey. The owners who bought the car with their own money, preferring it over all the other brands including Mercedes.
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...faction-survey
Ofcourse it will, as the people who buy them are huge evangelists who will gladly reduce their expectations to zero..

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Tesla problems are not with fundamental engineering, they are mostly related to build and some electrical gremlins. Do you know the top 3 cars with the least probability of injury in case of an accidents - yes all three are Tesla's. Not Mercedes, not BMW. Enough said.
https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/mod...r-tested-nhtsa
Ofcourse they will do better as they don't have an engine to work around. When it comes to safety, don't you know about:

That time a tesla drove into a barrier killing the owner. (Happened twice IIRC)

That time a tesla drove into a trailer killing the owner. (It actually continued to accelerate after crashing according to the NTSB)

That time a model 3 drove into a trailer again, killing the owner.

That time a model 3 drove into a truck.

That time a model s drove into a firetruck.

That time the battery pack caught fire after a crash, killing 2 kids.

That time the battery pack caught fire (Lawsuit against Tesla after malfunctioning door handles left driver trapped in a burning car) (Lawsuit against Tesla after malfunctioning door handles left driver trapped in a burning car) after a crash, killing the owner. (Lawsuit against Tesla after malfunctioning door handles left driver trapped in a burning car) (Lawsuit against Tesla after malfunctioning door handles left driver trapped in a burning car)

If safety was even a priority at tesla, why didn't they respond to NTSB, an agency tasked with improving safety?

Also:
Quote:
Tesla also failed to limit where Autopilot can be used, allowing drivers to activate it in areas it wasn’t designed for, the report said.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/ntsb-dr...utopilot-crash

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Old 17th January 2021, 17:30   #12
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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
The article you've linked says that Mercedes fails in the area of electronics, not mechanical. Tesla isn't doing too hot in that area as well: https://apnews.com/article/us-news-f...89fd00f20a16f8. Ofcourse it won't match the reliability of cheap mass market cars with minimum tech from the likes of Toyota, who are extremely conservative when it comes to engineering.
There are numerous examples of unreliable Mercedes mechanicals. Search our forum and you will see plenty here.

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Originally Posted by SreeT View Post
I haven't driven a tesla yet as there are no showrooms nearby or charging stations to charge it if I rented it. But the faults I see on the internet and the scummy practices of tesla are enough to convince me that you people hide that teslas are subpar products and push them for what ever reason.
So you havent even sat in one let alone driven one or lived with one for a single minute. So tell me again why should anyone take your seriously? Just because you read some article on internet? Because one of your links has a Tesla which crashed at 116 mph and you are saying why the occupants died and the car caught fire ignoring NHTSA themselves which says they are the safest car around? No i’ll take the word of the real owners and my test drive experience. I will take the word of NHTSA than a random internet troll. It almost as pointless as arguing with flat earthers

I dont have to go through gazillion random links to get that you wont get it at all. I rest my case.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 17th January 2021 at 17:37.
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Old 17th January 2021, 17:49   #13
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There are numerous examples of unreliable Mercedes mechanicals. Search our forum and you will see plenty here.
Again, you are talking about faults that occur during ownership while teslas have faults coming out of the showroom. In the article I've linked, the model 3 literally had lesser ground clearance than in the specifications. Last I've checked, different ground clearance is a mechanical fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
So you havent even sat in one let alone driven one or lived with one for a single minute. So tell me again why should anyone take your seriously? Just because you read some article on internet? No i’ll take the word of the real owners and my test drive experience. It almost as pointless as arguing with flat earthers
So I have given you actual factual evidence that teslas aren't the most reliable or safe cars and you refuse to change your opinion. Sorry but the flat earther line belongs to me in this argument lol.


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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I dont have to go through gazillion random links to get that you wont get it at all. I rest my case.
"I refuse to see the evidence hence the evidence doesn't exist"

Last edited by SreeT : 17th January 2021 at 17:53.
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Old 17th January 2021, 18:00   #14
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

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Ofcourse it will, as the people who buy them are huge evangelists who will gladly reduce their expectations to zero..
Is this a joke, how do you know? how could you group (5 lakh owners this year) everyone who buy a Tesla as a 'Tesla fanboy'.

Luxury and reliability are 2 different things, often they do not go together. For some lack of engine noise, vibrations are a luxury.

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Old 17th January 2021, 18:30   #15
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Is this a joke, how do you know? how could you group (5 lakh owners this year) everyone who buy a Tesla as a 'Tesla fanboy'.
Who else would buy a new car with a known faults list like this? Even my Alfa has a shorter known faults list than that.

Let me give you an example. Alfa Romeo has a very bad reliability history. But Alfisti still buy them because of the driving experience and looks. It is exactly same with tesla fanboys. They buy them and talk well and loudly about them even though they are subpar products. And I also suspect that a lot of them aren't actually car people to actually be able to judge a car properly.

Last edited by SreeT : 17th January 2021 at 18:32.
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